Cutting corners in coaching wrong?

[Getpaddled]

Man on 2nd and 3rd. 0-1 out. (2 umps on field)

 

Player bunts the ball... (Squeeze)

 

Player from 3rd scores easy, pitcher/fielder fields ball throws to first base. (While all the action is going on by first base and home plate, the runner from 2nd gets forgotten about) The runner from 2nd cuts the corner (big time) and never touches 3rd base because no umps are watching. He also Scores pretty easy, although there is usually a throw on the play.

 

Are you sending the wrong message by teaching 15-18 year olds stunts like this? Or would you consider this smart base running?

 

I have seen this work twice for this team I have one caught on video.

[aracko]

That sounds like a setup for this topic to be changed to the steroid issue.

[sbrylski]

At least he didn't have his pitcher throw at an autistic kid.

 

But yeah, that's not right. Nobody has complained?

[Getpaddled]

1st game no one noticed... 2nd game everyone was yelling.. but none of the umps saw it. This is just 1 of almost a dozen lil so called tricks I have learned from watching baseball.. I mean is it any different then football where the ref doesnt see a hold?

[dadofandrew]

I'd say it was an ump's issue...you cannot "forget" about a runner...actually, the home plate ump should be watching to ensure the runner touches home and the other runner.

 

In slo-pitch, with a full count and 2 outs, if I was on base, I'd often leave a tad early, as the umps never paid attention. That may be unethical, but if it helps win the game, you do what you can, especially if your attributes are defense and being gritty, like myself.

[TooLiveBrew]

Al's got it right, and I can testify as a slow-pitch ump that it's the umpire's responsibility to make sure he watches 'his'** runners touch the appropriate bases. I do this as a force of habit at this point, and am surprised how infrequently the defensive team notices that a runner misses a base.

 

I also closely watch 'my'** runners for leaving the base early, and will call them out if they do indeed attempt what Al's talking about.

 

That said, I think it is the wrong thing to teach young men/women to cheat as long as they can get away with it. That lesson applies far beyond sports, and is a poor one for adults to endorse, IMO.

 

Sounds like you have some green umps, and definitely any advantage to be had is a good one, but not at the expense of common-sense ethics. Laugh about it, say, 'Way to be heads-up' if you want to be nice, but reinforcing cheating as blatantly as the example cited, IMO, is poor judgment. While it's not the team's fault the umps stunk, at the same time the mentalitly that you'll cheat until you get caught will really come back to haunt the team at some point. You'll have umps who are on the ball, and will easily call the runner(s) out (or whatever play it may be).

 

There certainly is a way to play 'The Game', whether it be baseball, softball, etc. I value a pure sense of competitiveness, but not one that is just blatantly cheating. That's just my 2 cents.

 

 

** - Each umpire is assigned to cover runners at certain bases, so the field ump not seeing the runner blatantly miss 3B is not as troublesome as the plate ump not catching it, as 3B & HP are his/her responsibilities

[BraunsBoyfriend]

It's tough because you only have 2 umps. In MLB every base is accounted for of course. So it sounds like this guy (or team) is exploiting the fact that there aren't enough umps.

 

It's smart play although unsportsmanlike. I'd imagine the ump, if he caught this happening, that the player could be ejected for something like that. Obviously the player is out but exploiting a situation like that could be determined unsportsmanlike conduct and I'm sure the league rules allow for an ump to make a judgment call on what this means.

 

It's really funny though.

[tomter38]

I really really hate this play and can't even imagine how I would feel if I was on the losing end of it, but I can't really say much because as a pitcher I take advantage of the two umps as my pickoff move from the right side is a balk and I have never been called for it and have 13 picks in the last two years.

[twobrewers]

100% wrong.

 

Without a doubt.

 

I disagree saying it is like holding. As holding isn't always intentional. Sometimes the difference between a great block and hold is so slight it is hard to judge the difference. And that becomes the refs job - establishing at what point it becomes a hold. Everything up to holding is perfectly legal and NEEDS to be done to be successful.

 

This is just cheating. There is nothing clever about it. This is no different the cheating on a test in school. You could argue it is ok to cheat on a test too - as long as you don't get caught, you didn't do anything wrong.

 

It is cheating the other team. It is cheating on the game. It is cheating the umps. And you are cheating yourself by teaching people to take advantage of every situation even when it is the wrong thing to do.

 

If you lose you lose. Sports is in the contest - not the results.

[Invader3K]

It's akin to corking a bat or greasing a baseball. It's cheating.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'd say it was an ump's issue...

 

I agree that it is the ump's issue to watch the base. However, it is the responsibility of the defensive team to properly appeal and record the out.

 

That is to say, If Player A misses 3rd base, an umpire cannot call him out or really do anything until the defensive team properly appeals the play. The umpire cannot just call someone out for missing a base. If the defensive team misses it, it is really more on them than it is on the ump.

 

Now if the D appeals the play and the ump tells you he wasn't watching 3rd, then that is totally on him. The best thing a coach can do is point it out to the HP ump and tell him to watch 3rd next time.

 

If you ever watch a plays at the plate or any base for that matter, the umpire does not single safe until the runner touches the plate, or out until the catcher touches the runner. If the runner slides by the plate and heads to the dugout, and the catcher mistakenly assumes the runner touched the plate, the ump will do nothing, and correctly so.

[Pioneers3]

Guys first off the play is wrong and any coach who runs it should be kicked out of the game

 

Secondly...I have seen a College team run it...with a two man crew you can not watch all of the action going on they need to watch the ball down the line to make sure it is foul or fair and the other ump needs to watch 1st base...you can not see everything on the field if the bunt down the first base line!

 

Don't ever teach your kids this it is totally wrong!

[Fatter than Joey]

Guys first off the play is wrong and any coach who runs it should be kicked out of the game

 

I don't know about this -- If brought to the attention of the umps, they should be able to figure out how to gauge this.

[TheCrew07]

If they don't see it, there is no call to be made. Only a fool would reverse a call he or she didn't see, no matter what the opposing team or fans have to say about it.

 

Af the high school level, working with kids who always seem to want the easy way, and want everything done for them, teaching kids how to score "the easy way" doesn't sit very well with me.

 

Win because you're better, not because you're exploiting the system.

[rluzinski]

I'd never teach a teenager to try and cheat. What kind of a life lesson is that?

[Fatter than Joey]

I'd never teach a teenager to try and cheat. What kind of a life lesson is that?

 

Agreed -- furthermore, it's not smart baseball, as if the other team is on its toes, you will lose a baserunner at 3b 100% of the time. That being so stated -- the other team has to be diligent in making sure they appeal the play correctly.

[Pioneers3]

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Agreed -- furthermore, it's not smart baseball, as if the other team is on its toes, you will lose a baserunner at 3b 100% of the time. That being so stated -- the other team has to be diligent in making sure they appeal the play correctly.

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A two man crew in Baseball can not see this play!!! Even if you tell them that it is coming the home plate ump needs to see the ball down the line, and the base ump has to watch the play at first...that is how the rotation works for baseball that is why coaches teach it and get away with it...but that coach is very much hated by everyone else

[Fatter than Joey]

There has to be a way to handle this. Perhaps you could suggest that the BU position himself behind 3rd or on the OF grass so he could see 3rd and 1st. at the same time, or have the PU take over for 1st base on a bunt situation -- once the ball is thrown the PU can look to what base the ball is going to (home or first).

 

It sounds like to me that someone needs to think outside the box in this situation.

 

Either that or put a league official in the stands, and if the coach is cheating threaten to make his team forfeit, regardless of how the umping is handled.

[Pioneers3]

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There has to be a way to handle this.

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YES, it's called setting a good example for the kids you coach and not teaching them to do it! But there are always idiots out there who think that it's okay to teach. If you play the game the right way

[DHonks]

I've never heard of such a situation. I can't believe anyone would stoop low enough as to try to teach kids to cheat in sports.

[nsimps]

Here's a similar situation that just happened to me. Runners at first and second. My batter hits it into the gap and the kid on second rounds third but just steps over the bag on accident. I think about yelling at him to come back and touch the bag, but he was already halfway home. The other team doesn't see it, and I don't think my runner even knew he missed it. In the words of those former great commercials "You make the call"

[Invader3K]

If he truly accidentally went over the bag, that's a bit different. It would be assumed he would've touched the bag anyway. Cutting the corner is completely different.

[Pioneers3]

Quote:

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The other team doesn't see it, and I don't think my runner even knew he missed it. In the words of those former great commercials "You make the call"

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Like the poster before me said...it's different he wasn't gaining an edge he just missed it...it wasn't like he cut 15 feet off the baseline, though if the other team sees it and make an apeal on the play he would be out, but you wouldn't be looked at as a guy who tought his kids to cheat!

[mothershipconnection]

As holding isn't always intentional. Sometimes the difference between a great block and hold is so slight it is hard to judge the difference.

 

Even then, it's not even like you can look at plays and clearly say it's holding or not, since the definition is not nearly as concrete as "step on the bag".

I'd say holding is more like rounding the bag but missing it by a half-inch.

[stoutdude04]

Although I think cheating is wrong, and this to me is cheating. Teaching them that is rediculous to me. But on the other hand, we used to have a play on our hockey team, where we basically did the same exact thing. Take advantage of the short crew and have too many men on the ice late in the game. The fact that there are penalties in hockey though make this alittle different, but, mildly the same I suppose. Still dont like it.