Bullpen Concern?

[wcswimmer712]

Is anyone else concerned with the recent play/management of our bullpen? I have to say (along with the bench) this is the glaring weakness of our team. I have no faith in anyone outside of Latroy Hawkins, yet Roenicke somehow doesn't let him pitch important innings. He hasn't allowed a run in over 10 appearances but Loe continues to get the call in the 8th. Tim Dillard pitching tonight in the bottom of the tenth? He's been pitching alright of late but still can't get lefties out, don't know why he was pitching to one. Axford, Braddock, and Hawkins are the only ones who deserve spots. Estrada should be sent to AAA, Mitre is ok as the long guy, Loe continues to lose us games.

Takashi Saito can't come back soon enough... I think we will need to acquire a bullpen arm at the deadline if we want to make a deep run in the playoffs. We night someone to be lights out and reliable. The arms out there aren't getting it done.

[adambr2]

I still think its a good pen.

 

Ax has been lights out since April, Hawkins has been amazing, Braddock and Mitre are big assets, and Loe is a nice ROOGY. Its just that the person in charge of them has no clue how to best utilize them.

[PKBadger]

"Concerned" would be putting it lightly.

 

I picked the wrong season to quit sniffing glue.

[theavrock]

I'm not concerned about the bullpen. I am concerned that we have a manager that has no idea how to manage it.

 

I would be comfortable with Ax, Hawkins and Braddock as our late inning guys with the rest as fill ins. When Saito comes back I feel even better about the top end of the pen.

 

Problem is that will never happen because the guy running the ship is clueless.

[davemakovec]

Even Loe and Dillard I would have have faith in if RRR knew that they're righty-only pitchers. There's plenty of talent in the bullpen to win games. It's just that the talent doesn't extend to between the manager's ears.

[fondybrewfan]

I am comfortable with Axford, Braddock, and Hawkins for sure. Loe, Dillard, Mitre, and Estrada can be good if they are use correctly. I would feel even better once Saito comes back; he could replace Estrada. I would mind McClendan again either but it would be a tough call to remove one of the other guys. I am guessing it would be Dillard though.

 

The problem is RR thinks Braddock is a LOOGY and he isn't and Loe is a ROOGY and RR thinks he isn't.

 

Unless you have just a dominant set up man; you have to play match ups in the 7th & 8th inning. I am OK with Axford strictly in the 9th inning but RR has to get away from his stubborness in the other bullpen roles.

[CheezWizHed]

Brandon Kintzler would also be a welcome sight in the BP.

 

I would agree with others, too. Its not necessarily the talent there, its the decisions being made as to who comes in when (or doesn't). Loe pitched great last year, when he was used in spots and wasn't locked into the 8th inning role. I've seen RR leave him in against the other teams best LH hitters to understand any thought process there.

[Flood Pants]

The problem is RR thinks Braddock is a LOOGY and he isn't and Loe is a ROOGY and RR thinks he isn't.

 

Unless you have just a dominant set up man; you have to play match ups in the 7th & 8th inning. I am OK with Axford strictly in the 9th inning but RR has to get away from his stubborness in the other bullpen roles.

I totally agree. This bullpen is built from role-players. Roles need to be based not on the inning, but the situation. In general, we need more of Hawkins and Braddock, and more appropriate use of Loe. Though I can't blame Ron too much for what happened last night. Any reliever should be counted on to get through an inning without giving up a three-run lead. That one was on Estrada.

[Ennder]

I'm not even close to comfortable with Hawkins, he is all strand rate which won't hold up. His xFIP is 3.90 and with that K rate it is obvious he isn't really fooling anyone out there. I have much more faith in Loe than Hawkins, a small sample of ERA is not a good way to measure things.

 

There isn't a single pitcher in our bullpen that I'm fully comfortable with though, Axford would be the closest thing to one but even he scares me sometimes.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm not even close to comfortable with Hawkins, he is all strand rate which won't hold up. His xFIP is 3.90 and with that K rate it is obvious he isn't really fooling anyone out there. I have much more faith in Loe than Hawkins, a small sample of ERA is not a good way to measure things.

 

There isn't a single pitcher in our bullpen that I'm fully comfortable with though, Axford would be the closest thing to one but even he scares me sometimes.

Loe is on pace to lose 14 games. It would be 17 had not the offense pulled off an incredible rally last week. That is simply unacceptable. His command is spotty and he's leaving a ton of balls up over the middle of the plate. It appears he loses concentration out there. They've wasted far too many outstanding starts and he's the main culprit. I understand your point about Hawkins but he's by far the most experienced, and if you are actually watching him pitch instead of relying on your stathead stuff, you'll see he's getting consistent sink on 93 mph fastballs, and that's why he's not giving up runs regardless of his K rate. Estrada had a few nice starts early and a few good relief appearances early, but he's been awful lately. He's the last guy I'd turn to instead of Loe. Braddock is throwing the ball extremely well too and we hardly see him. So was McClendon before he went down (he should be recalled and Estrada should be sent down BTW).

[Funketown]

I agree that the problem is more Roenicke than the bullpen. Hawkins is a solid, dependable reliever and he went a week without being used. I don't expect anything better than a ~3.50 from him from here on out, but that's worthy of getting some important innings. Braddock is not a LOOGY, but he's been used as one. Last night in the 8th, the batters coming up were Fukudome (L), Castro ®, Ramirez ®, Pena (L), DeWitt (L). That's LRRLL. Would he even use Braddock for an LRL at this point?

[endaround]

Actually it was Campana leading off. So it was LLRRLL.

[joepepsi]

Bullpen management is probably the main area that a manager has control over. If he can't do that, then quite simply, he isn't a very good manager. That said, this bullpen is not great. The difference between .500 teams and 90+ win teams is often the bullpen. This is where it helps to be a big market team. You can pay $10 million dollars to someone who only plays 60 innings a year.

 

The Brewers are an above average team that can only afford an average bullpen at best. This is an average bullpen. No innings come easy. Once the game is turned over the pen, we can rest assured that an additional 1-2 runs are going to cross the plate for the opposition. RR could be better at minimizing that, but the fact is, the talent among the reliever corps is OK, but not championship quality.

 

The Brewers have to have a 3 run lead in the 7th in order to be comfortable about a victory. As we saw last night, and in previous games, at times that's not even a guarantee.

[JohnBriggs12]

Bullpen management is probably the main area that a manager has control over. If he can't do that, then quite simply, he isn't a very good manager. That said, this bullpen is not great. The difference between .500 teams and 90+ win teams is often the bullpen. This is where it helps to be a big market team. You can pay $10 million dollars to someone who only plays 60 innings a year.

 

The Brewers are an above average team that can only afford an average bullpen at best. This is an average bullpen. No innings come easy. Once the game is turned over the pen, we can rest assured that an additional 1-2 runs are going to cross the plate for the opposition. RR could be better at minimizing that, but the fact is, the talent among the reliever corps is OK, but not championship quality.

 

The Brewers have to have a 3 run lead in the 7th in order to be comfortable about a victory. As we saw last night, and in previous games, at times that's not even a guarantee.

What makes up a championship quality bullpen? Primarily it's the closer and I believe Axford is an upper echelon closer. If the rest of the pen is average, that's good enough, especially if the rotation is top notch. The fact is Loe hasn't pitched up to his form of last season. We're past the point where he should have been replaced. Roenicke has been slow to change and last night he made the change to the last guy he should have. Hawkins is a veteran, proven late inning guy. He's not top notch to be sure but he's serviceable most of the time. While Ennder will argue, there's nothing he's done this year that should have given Roenicke pause to use him with a 3 run lead. That' not the case with Estrada who's been very shaky of late and has no experience as a late inning major league reliever.

 

Braddock might have the best stuff in the pen other than Axford. Maybe you can't use him as frequently as you would like, but he's clearly capable of protecting leads late. Even Mitre is a solid major league veteran who's handled the glare with the Yankees and whose thrown the ball well this year.

[markedman5]

As of today the Brewers bullpen is 19/30 in save opportunities.

 

The Phillies are 22 of 24.

 

The Giants are 22 of 30.

 

So the Giants have 3 more wins given the same number of leads to protect and we aren't even halfway through the season.

 

The Cards(21 of 33) are in about the same boat as we are and everyone has called their pen a disaster this year.

[Pack Attack]

Hoping Saito will actually be able to come back and be serviceable. Estrada is probably the most likely demotion if Saito can come back. He has not been very good his last 4 times out.

[MkeSouthSide]

As of today the Brewers bullpen is 19/30 in save opportunities [...] So the Giants have 3 more wins given the same number of leads to protect and we aren't even halfway through the season.

I agree that the BP is a concern, but this point isn't necessarily true. The "save opportunity" conversion totals don't necessarily translate to a certain number of wins. You may have a blown save in a game your teams wind up winning. I'd say that you should look at "holds" as well, but that's also a flawed measure.

[RickyWeeks4Prez]

Bottom line is, if your guy comes out and gives up back to back doubles then you should seriously consider taking him out. Especially when that guy has gotten shelled that last handful of times he has pitched. They had back to back lefties leading off the eighth, common sense says you put in Braddock. The last two loses have been on RR and his inability to manage our bullpen. I think we are fortunate to have the guys we have in the pen. We have a lot of very good situational pitchers. Use them as such!

 

 

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[markedman5]

You're right a save could be blown and you could still win the game. Holds are taken into account in this number. This isn't just closers or pitchers that get a chance to close a game. It takes into account anytime relievers come into a game with the lead after the 5th inning I believe.

 

Bottom line is holding leads 19 out of 30 times isn't very good especially when our closer has only blown 2 of them.

 

 

As of today the Brewers bullpen is 19/30 in save opportunities [...] So the Giants have 3 more wins given the same number of leads to protect and we aren't even halfway through the season.

I agree that the BP is a concern, but this point isn't necessarily true. The "save opportunity" conversion totals don't necessarily translate to a certain number of wins. You may have a blown save in a game your teams wind up winning. I'd say that you should look at "holds" as well, but that's also a flawed measure.

 

[Polish Falcons]

As of today the Brewers bullpen is 19/30 in save opportunities [...] So the Giants have 3 more wins given the same number of leads to protect and we aren't even halfway through the season.

I agree that the BP is a concern, but this point isn't necessarily true. The "save opportunity" conversion totals don't necessarily translate to a certain number of wins. You may have a blown save in a game your teams wind up winning. I'd say that you should look at "holds" as well, but that's also a flawed measure.

 

True, but it's still an interesting stat. The Brewers bullpen has a 63% save rate as a team. That stat would include holds by the way. The NL average is 68%. If we could simply be league average that'd probably equal 1-2 more wins on 30 chances. Actually I'm surprised the amount isn't higher. Turns out a lot of teams around the league have bullpen issues, except the Phillies with their ridiculous 92% save rate. And Houston has been atrocious at 43% (I can't barely imagine what it's like being an Astros fan). Thankfully Cincinatti (65%) and St. Louis (64%) have also been pretty bad. In order to be a real contender this I think this save rate needs to go up for the Brewers. I agree with those who are questioning Roenike's use of Estrada over Hawkins last night, as well as Dillard in an extra innings tie, and agree we are seeing too much of Kameron Loe.

[berniebrewer4life]

This bullpen blows more games than I did during the NES/SNES era, and it's not from a lack of talent either. It seems like RR will pick a guy and ride him for about 4-5 straight games, till his arm falls off, then rinse and repeat.

[monty57]

Hopefully the end of the Nieves experiment is a sign that other things will change as well. Loe should not be the "8th inning guy." If we have to have an "8th inning guy," it should be either Braddock or Hawkins depending on who they will be facing. If our starters continue to pitch 6-7 innings per night, we should be okay if we mainly use Braddock and Hawkins in the 7th/8th with Axford in the 9th when we have the lead. Loe and Dillard can take the games we're not winning, and the occasional inning where Loe or Hawkins need a night off.

 

Estrada should never have been placed in the pen... not because he's no good, but rather because we have no other SP who can fill in when one of our starters goes down. He should be sent down and inserted into the AAA rotation. Bring up someone like McClendon or even newly acquired LOOGY Daniel Ray Herrera, who would be useful to our pen.

 

We have been ravaged by injuries in the pen this season. Braddock is back, and that should help. Hopefully, we can get some others back soon. Adding Kintzler and Saito would make our pen pretty good, but until they're back, we should be okay if the relievers would be used correctly.

[thebruce44]

I'm not even close to comfortable with Hawkins, he is all strand rate which won't hold up. His xFIP is 3.90 and with that K rate it is obvious he isn't really fooling anyone out there. I have much more faith in Loe than Hawkins, a small sample of ERA is not a good way to measure things.

 

There isn't a single pitcher in our bullpen that I'm fully comfortable with though, Axford would be the closest thing to one but even he scares me sometimes.

Loe is on pace to lose 14 games. It would be 17 had not the offense pulled off an incredible rally last week. That is simply unacceptable. His command is spotty and he's leaving a ton of balls up over the middle of the plate. It appears he loses concentration out there. They've wasted far too many outstanding starts and he's the main culprit. I understand your point about Hawkins but he's by far the most experienced, and if you are actually watching him pitch instead of relying on your stathead stuff, you'll see he's getting consistent sink on 93 mph fastballs, and that's why he's not giving up runs regardless of his K rate. Estrada had a few nice starts early and a few good relief appearances early, but he's been awful lately. He's the last guy I'd turn to instead of Loe. Braddock is throwing the ball extremely well too and we hardly see him. So was McClendon before he went down (he should be recalled and Estrada should be sent down BTW).

According to PitchFX his velocity and sink are actually still down on his fastball. It might be consistent this year, but its not consistent with his past.

[Ennder]

Loe is on pace to lose 14 games. It would be 17 had not the offense pulled off an incredible rally last week. That is simply unacceptable

 

Losses are team stats.

 

I understand your point about Hawkins but he's by far the most experienced, and if you are actually watching him pitch instead of relying on your stathead stuff, you'll see he's getting consistent sink on 93 mph fastballs, and that's why he's not giving up runs regardless of his K rate.

 

It is because his groundballs happen to all be right at guys instead of through holes, there is no reason to think Hawkins won't completely implode into a 3.50+ ERA at some point going forward, he has shown nothing good so far. If there is any positive to Hawkins it is that his control has been good and that is generally a recipe for success but when you can't get the ball past any bats all the control in the world isn't going to really help that much long term.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Why is Loe still on this team? He is beyond awful