Nieves is so bad, he's going to screw up Lucroy, too

[Fear The Chorizo]

Nieves is so inept on offense that he cannot give Lucroy an entire game off - the primary purpose of a backup catcher is to give the everyday catcher enough days off so he doesn't fall off a cliff due to fatigue from overuse. The Brewers NEED to get rid of Nieves and get a catcher in here that can actually be a normal backup catcher.

I don't want Lucroy thinking he's Kendall - no reason to have to start 80% of all the games AND expect to play in at least part of the other 20%.

[Invader3K]

It seems like every time Nieves starts, Lucroy ends up in the game anyway. If that's not the definition of "pathetic" for a backup catcher, I don't know what is.

[hawing]

I hope there is no extra-inning game this year that goes on so long that Wolf is needed on the mound, because imagine bringing in Wil in the 18th inning or so. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif

[DuWayne Steurer]

I hope there is no extra-inning game this year that goes on so long that Wolf is needed on the mound, because imagine bringing in Wil in the 18th inning or so. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif

As much as this sounds like it should be the punchline to a bad joke......this is the Brewer's reality. We have a .360 OPS catcher who HAS to play every 5 days for Randy Wolf. And the manager KNOWS how much he sucks, or he wouldn't be PHing for him the very first AB after Wolf leaves the game. If Wolf can't see how this is hurting the team, or Melvin, or Roenicke, they're ALL idiots and should be fired.

 

There is NO reason this level of pandering should be going on for a #4 pitcher. Lucroy is essentially playing every day, and I don't know if his recent slump is attributable to that, but it sure can't be helping.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I hope there is no extra-inning game this year that goes on so long that Wolf is needed on the mound, because imagine bringing in Wil in the 18th inning or so. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif

 

What would have happened had last night's game gone significantly into extras, a very real possibility the way things were going when Nieves was pinch hit for? Lucroy ends up catching close to a full game on the one night a week he's supposed to have off.

[Warning Track Power]

I actually think that last night may be the breaking point for Nieves. I won't rehash all the arguments about his worth, but I will say that I watched a part of the game with my Dad last night and actually told him that I thought Nieves should bunt after YuBet's double in the 5th to move him over for Wolf. If that doesn't scream volumes about his worth I don't know what will. Roenicke/Melvin have to understand sooner rather than later that Nieves lack of offensive production is simply killing this team every 5th day and his presence on the team is unacceptable. .140 AVG in June and being the Bigs all year. I don't think I have ever seen that before.

 

I really think it's time for Kottaras even if there is a supposed swoon in defense even though Nieves' defensive WAR is 0 in 2011.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Nieves has 7 hits in 50 ab's this year. Kottaras had 7 hits in 26 ab's in his short time here. That shows how pathetic Nieves is.

[MJLiverock]

So in this thread LuCroy should play everyday since having Nieves catch Wolf every 5th day is completely stupid. But LuCroy is playing too much because he was used as a PH late in games when Nieves catches. And finally, LuCroy hasn't been able to hit out of a wet paper bag for the last month because Nieves is on the team.

 

Conclusion: LuCroy is a fragile Superman who's Kryptonite is Wil Nieves.

[Funketown]

So in this thread LuCroy should play everyday since having Nieves catch Wolf every 5th day is completely stupid. But LuCroy is playing too much because he was used as a PH late in games when Nieves catches. And finally, LuCroy hasn't been able to hit out of a wet paper bag for the last month because Nieves is on the team.

 

Conclusion: LuCroy is a fragile Superman who's Kryptonite is Wil Nieves.

Nobody in this thread is saying anything like that. Straw men burn quickly, no?

 

The point of this thread is that Nieves is horrible and a lot of things could be fixed by calling up Kottaras. The point is that Lucroy should not be playing this much, as Kottaras or even Rivera could be a competent backup catcher who starts 2 days a week.

[PrinceEatMeat]

So in this thread LuCroy should play everyday since having Nieves catch Wolf every 5th day is completely stupid. But LuCroy is playing too much because he was used as a PH late in games when Nieves catches. And finally, LuCroy hasn't been able to hit out of a wet paper bag for the last month because Nieves is on the team.

 

Conclusion: LuCroy is a fragile Superman who's Kryptonite is Wil Nieves.

Nobody in this thread is saying anything like that. Straw men burn quickly, no?

 

The point of this thread is that Nieves is horrible and a lot of things could be fixed by calling up Kottaras. The point is that Lucroy should not be playing this much, as Kottaras or even Rivera could be a competent backup catcher who starts 2 days a week.

Yep, that pretty much sums it all up.

[MJLiverock]

Uhh people complain that Nieves catches every 5th day, read RoCo's post and he pretty much compains about it in multiple threads. - - i.e. LuCroy is Superman and must play everyday.

 

People complain that LuCroy is used a PH- mentioned in multiple posts. i.e. LuCroy is fragile and can't possibly PH in games he doesn't start, it's too much of a work load. (of course this doesn't even bring up how often people used to complain about Yost or Macha refusing to use a PH for the catcher use his back up catcher to PH late in a game.)

 

title of thread is, "Nieves is so bad he's going to screw up LuCroy too" -- i.e. Kyptonite

 

sorry Funketown, no straw man there, just rehashing what was said, I know it doesn't make sense that somehow LuCroy is getting too many days off, plays too much, and somehow is struggling at the plate because of who the back up catcher is so I made light of the ridiculousness of the thread.

[Warning Track Power]

I think the major point of the thread is that Nieves complete lack of O is not offset by anything else he brings to the team. He's simply average on D and doesn't appear to be a leader or locker room presence either. So if these are Nieves' realities there is no good reason for him to be in Milwaukee when in Nashville you have 2 catchers in Kottaras (who is marginally worse on D and infinitely better on O) and Rivera (who is equal on D and definitely better on O) who are immediate, significant upgrades to Nieves.

[Fear The Chorizo]

So in this thread LuCroy should play everyday since having Nieves catch Wolf every 5th day is completely stupid. But LuCroy is playing too much because he was used as a PH late in games when Nieves catches. And finally, LuCroy hasn't been able to hit out of a wet paper bag for the last month because Nieves is on the team.

 

Conclusion: LuCroy is a fragile Superman who's Kryptonite is Wil Nieves.

Not quite what I intended with the thread title...

 

Having Nieves on the roster has forced Lucroy to start every game Wolf doesn't pitch - I don't have a problem with giving the starting catcher 80% of the starts, but his performance should dictate when he gets a day or two off...not a #4 starting pitcher who acts like a teenage girl when he's not pitching to Nieves. Since Nieves is so bad, the last 3 games Lucroy was supposed to get a day off he ended up pinch hitting and/or replacing him at catcher - and even though it would benefit him over the course of the season, it's essentially pointless to give Lucroy consecutive games off because even when he's struggling offensively he's a better option than Nieves.

 

I should have included Wolf's name in the thread title - stupid as it sounds, he's partially to blame for the current catching situation on the team by him refusing to pitch to Lucroy. Even if Nieves is replaced by Kottaras or Rivera, RR will still hamstring himself by allowing his #4 starter to dictate who catches when, although a better offensive backup catcher would probably get more starts than Nieves and give more opportunites for Lucroy to sit (if performance/situation warrants that).

 

[Warning Track Power]

As a follow up, without doing the research, off the top of my head it seems that a lot of the games where Lucroy does PH when Nieves starts, it includes Lucroy going out to catch for an inning or two. This completely negates the idea of a day off, even for an inning or two, especially at the physically demanding position of catcher. When was the last time the Brewers developed a catcher with the potential of Lucroy? We should be giving him these days off and only allow for him to PH when he isn't starting to simply preserve him. With Nieves as the backup, the Brewers often times aren't afforded that luxury. That is why having a competent backup is so important.

[MJLiverock]

I don't disagree that both AAA catchers should be better than Nieves. I think it is absurd to blame LuCroy's plate troubles on who the back up catcher is and to see the constant complants everytime LuCroy gets a day off and now complaints when he gets used as a PH as somehow being overworked. Which is it? He plays too much or not enough?

[Raw Biz]

I just wanted to say it's Lucroy, not LuCroy. It may be dumb but it's hard for me to take posts seriously when the poster doesn't even know how to spell the name. To me, it just seems like that means the poster is not really a big Brewers fan since they don't even know the spelling of the player. Not saying this is true in your case, it's just what instantly comes to mind for me. I've seen it from other posters too.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't disagree that both AAA catchers should be better than Nieves. I think it is absurd to blame LuCroy's plate troubles on who the back up catcher is and to see the constant complants everytime LuCroy gets a day off and now complaints when he gets used as a PH as somehow being overworked. Which is it? He plays too much or not enough?

The point is that if the backup catcher was even close to competent offensively, Lucroy wouldn't need to PH on his days off. Having Lucroy PH, and then catch 2-3 innings completely negates the benefit of having a 'day off', when you play a position that's as physically overbearing as catcher.

 

I didn't say that this was the definitive cause of Lucroy's trouble's at the plate recently, I was only suggesting that it might be playing into it.

 

Lucroy shouldn't have to catch everyday. AND. He shouldn't have to PH and catch the 7th - 9th on his days off. This isn't an either/or, it's both.

[xisxisxis]

If Wolf can't see how this is hurting the team, or Melvin, or Roenicke, they're ALL idiots and should be fired.

 

 

 

I don't understand all the knashing of teeth at brewerfan over the backup catcher (not picking on you RoCo). Dougie has made it clear he values catchers that 'call a good game' (i.e. defensive catcher). the main issue as presented between Wolf and Lucroy was pitch selection. Obviously we have to have 2 catchers and at least 1 is going to be a perceived defensive 'good pitch calling' catcher. no matter how much we complain Dougie isn't going to change his spots. So wanting the situation to change requires Melvin's firing. i personally don't agree with the premise that pitch calling is a definitive talent (shouldn't approaching hitters be discussed by P and C before the game when reviewing scouting reports with the big issues agreed upon in advance?)

[DuWayne Steurer]

If Wolf can't see how this is hurting the team, or Melvin, or Roenicke, they're ALL idiots and should be fired.

 

 

 

I don't understand all the knashing of teeth at brewerfan over the backup catcher (not picking on you RoCo). Dougie has made it clear he values catchers that 'call a good game' (i.e. defensive catcher). the main issue as presented between Wolf and Lucroy was pitch selection. Obviously we have to have 2 catchers and at least 1 is going to be a perceived defensive 'good pitch calling' catcher. no matter how much we complain Dougie isn't going to change his spots. So wanting the situation to change requires Melvin's firing. i personally don't agree with the premise that pitch calling is a definitive talent (shouldn't approaching hitters be discussed by P and C before the game when reviewing scouting reports with the big issues agreed upon in advance?)

I don't actually disagree with any of this. And the 120 or so plate appearances that Nieves gets shouldn't be the difference between winning and losing (though it could be).

 

It's just blatantly obvious that there's a problem here, as Lucroy is essentially no longer getting a day off. Obviously, my wording was a bit harsh and over the top, and I don't want Melvin fired (yet), or Wolf released. What's really grinding my gears on this one is that Roenicke KNOWS Nieves sucks, because he pinch hits for him as soon as Wolf is out of the game. They know there's a problem, and they're doing nothing. And when the guy has a .360 OPS, he's such an offensive black hole that the difference between him and a .700 OPS catcher in 120 at bats might be the difference between 89 and 90 wins.

[brwrsfan]

120 plate apperances from Wil Nieves definitely does hinder our chances to win. If you consider that in his first 50, he statistically was worse than pretty much all of our starting pitchers, that's making that particular game much harder to win.

[MoreTrife]

it's just going to be interesting to see how far roenicke will push it. how long of a leash nieves has. i find myself hoping nieves does bad because i know one dribbler of a base hit will allow roenicke to say "see, there we go! he's swinging better."

[JoeHova]

it's just going to be interesting to see how far roenicke will push it. how long of a leash nieves has. i find myself hoping nieves does bad because i know one dribbler of a base hit will allow roenicke to say "see, there we go! he's swinging better."

I hate having this feeling (I'm not quite there yet, even for Yuni, but I have been many times in the past). It sucks to have to root against guys on your favorite team but it's sometimes necessary. It's definitely the sign of a poorly managed team when there are like 6-7 guys worthy of this treatment even when the team is contending.

[brwrsfan]

I've been rooting against Nieves for weeks. Obviously it makes very little difference. The man has had only 5 hits since opening day and very, very rarely has hit any balls with any authority. I really don't think it makes any difference how many oh for threes he puts up at this point. We should have been LONG past that point by now.

[adambr2]

I actually think that last night may be the breaking point for Nieves. I won't rehash all the arguments about his worth, but I will say that I watched a part of the game with my Dad last night and actually told him that I thought Nieves should bunt after YuBet's double in the 5th to move him over for Wolf. If that doesn't scream volumes about his worth I don't know what will. Roenicke/Melvin have to understand sooner rather than later that Nieves lack of offensive production is simply killing this team every 5th day and his presence on the team is unacceptable. .140 AVG in June and being the Bigs all year. I don't think I have ever seen that before.

 

I really think it's time for Kottaras even if there is a supposed swoon in defense even though Nieves' defensive WAR is 0 in 2011.

 

 

Unfortunately after not seeing a move today I'm afraid we will be suffering through more Nieves" starts. If they were going to make a move I don't see why they would wait. Kottaras is potentially useful to have every day as a pinch-hitter, Nieves is not, so they have nothing to gain by waiting until just before Wolf's next start.

[thablingster]

I hope there is no extra-inning game this year that goes on so long that Wolf is needed on the mound, because imagine bringing in Wil in the 18th inning or so. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif

Thankfully, in that scenario it is likely RRR would have already used Wil as a pinch hitter since he's not afraid to use his backup catcher, and thus Randy would likely just refuse to pitch. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

I'm not in the Nieves train at all, but it looks like at this point we're stuck with him.