When do we trade Corey Hart?

[paul253]

With all the outfield prospects we have I hope it would be inevitable. He's a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he's that consistent all star type player that someone like Braun and Fielder would be and his loss wouldn't be too hard to overcome. Defensively I guess he's ok but nothing special. And even if someone like Komatsu isn't ready next season, cheap free agent outfielders are usually pretty easy to find.

 

If Hart continues to hit in the .280 range with 20-30 home runs this year, you may be able to get a pretty good prospect or two in return for him this offseason, even if they are lower level prospects which at this point I'd be fine with as long as they are position players. He's still signed for 2 years so he wouldn't be a rental for anyone who takes him. The salary relief would allow the Brewers to either use it to dump Bentancourt and sign a FA shortstop like Furcal or to bank the money to try to put towards resigning Marcum and/or Greinke. Plus the prospect(s) they get in return, even if it just one mid to high ceiling prospect, would really help this depleted system. Just a thought, but I think it help Milwaukee in two ways. 1) Salary relief ($9m in 2012 and $10m in 2013) 2) Prospects to help restock the system. Any thoughts?

[RockCoCougars]

I think you have to keep Hart unless you are blown away with an offer. His bat will be needed if/when Prince leaves, taking with him roughly 20% of the team's HR. Considering that he's a younger, slightly watered down version of Jayson Werth, I think the contract is pretty reasonable as well.

[adambr2]

Hart's contract is actually quite reasonable in relation to his production. I think when you look at the comparable production between him, Werth, and Crawford, and see what kind of money they got versus what we signed Hart for just months prior, I think I'm pretty happy now that we kept him for what we did.

 

He also seems like a guy who genuinely wants to be here playing for the Brewers, which I think does count for something. Hart isn't a special player by any means, but he's a good, solid, everyday starter.

 

I'm not sold on any of our outfield prospects having that kind of a ceiling, so like it was mentioned, I wouldn't let Hart go unless we really got an offer we couldn't refuse.

[paul253]

Hart's contract is actually quite reasonable in relation to his

production. I think when you look at the comparable production between

him, Werth, and Crawford, and see what kind of money they got versus

what we signed Hart for just months prior, I think I'm pretty happy now

that we kept him for what we did.

 

I would think this would increase his value to other teams though. Look at what Washington gave Jason Werth ($126 million). The Brewers would still have plenty of power in Weeks and Braun to a lesser extent McGehee and Gamel. Beside, if you put someone in the lineup like Komatsu who is more of a contact hitter and then sign a Furcal you can move away from the over reliance on HRs that Milwaukee has had for years. A lineup of 1) Morgan 2) Furcal 3) Weeks 4) Braun 5) McGehee 6) Gamel 7) Lucroy and 8) Komatsu would be much more balanced I think. Plus, on top of losing Fielder's $15 million salary and Hart's $9 million salary, you'd lose Bentancourt's $6 million too. That could really buy them some financial flexibility until they restock their system.

[adambr2]

Well, if we got a great offer, I think anyone is tradeable. I just don't think that anyone is going to give us more for Hart than he's worth to us, nor do I think there's anyone in our farm that can reasonably replace him anytime soon.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think Caleb Gindl & Erik Komatsu could both replace Hart pretty soon (depends on your definition of "soon", I guess). Neither one would bring as much offense, but both are probably better defenders & would have good shots to carry better OBP than Corey does.

[Hate those Rodents]

Hart is needed in a Princeless lineup. He's not going anywhere. The risk that he stinks again is worth hoping he can be a .280 30+ homerun guy the duration of his contract.

[paul253]

Well, if we got a great offer, I think anyone is tradeable. I
just don't think that anyone is going to give us more for Hart than he's
worth to us, nor do I think there's anyone in our farm that can
reasonably replace him anytime soon.

When Atlanta was interested in him last season it was rumored they'd have given us a pretty decent starting pitching prospect wasn't it? Not a top of the line, but a #3/#4ish type guy. That was when Hart's contract expired at the end of the year. He's now under control through 2013 and if we don't insist on pitching I really do think we could get a decent prospect or two back. Maybe a third basemen or possibly even a lower level shortstop?

I agree with with TLB. Gindl is holding his own in AAA (.371 OBP and he's still only 22) and Komatsu is more than ready to be moved up there too. I think either one could reasonably replace him next season and if not, you still have Morgan and Gomez. You could always sign a veteran too like Nady, Francoeur, or Burrell. None of them are as good offensively as Hart but if you can take that money and use it on Furcal you have to think who'd you rather have. Hart and Bentacourt at $15 million total or Furcal and Komatsu/Gindl at maybe $8 million total. Plus, the defense would be much better as TLB said.

[logan82]

We could just trade Hart then sign some guys cheaper. If that is the case why would anybody trade a player for Hart and take on his contract when they could just sign a platoon that could match or better his production and bring average or better defense?

[paul253]

If that is the case why would anybody trade a player for Hart and take

on his contract when they could just sign a platoon that could match or

better his production and bring average or better defense?

 

There aren't too many free agents out there capable of hitting .280 with 25 home runs who'd be willing to sign a one year deal for $9 million. Just looking at the FA list maybe Ludwick is capable of hitting 25 HRs. Beltran is a FA but he I'm not sure he'd be willing to take a one year deal. Same with Sizemore. Berkman is having a heck of a year but he'd be a downgrade defensively and is getting up there in age. Other than that the FA pickings are pretty slim for outfielders. I'm not sure you'd be able to find a platoon either that could be as productive as Hart. Hart is a fairly young, fairly established player. Assuming he doesn't go all 2009 on us I think we'd be able to get something pretty decent for him.

[TheCrew07]

Hart is replaceable.

 

People need to get away from the idea that we *need* player X if we don't have player Y and so on. Anyone not named Braun, Weeks, Lucroy, or Gallardo is expendable, if people want to argue Marcum/Greinke for the year they have remaining on their contracts so be it, I'm not going to argue that against that logic. Before anyone mentions players from the bullpen... I'd trade any of them in a heartbeat for a young SP or position player. I believe the value in baseball lies this way: starting pitching > position players > bullpen > closers. Why are closers at the bottom? Simply because they get paid like starting pitchers to only pitch 60 innings per season. I'd happily trade Axford tomorrow for any legit starting pitching prospect in AA or higher.

 

It's the we *need* players who don't form our core that kept Melvin from trading any player we've had at his peak value, and why people constantly argue against trading players that aren't going to be a FA. That's something I've never understood, a player has his lowest possible value going into FA, if the player isn't part of your long-term plan, than why not move that player at his peak value? What rule says we have to wait until he's a rental and take best available deal at that time?2 years ago very few people wanted to sign Hart to anything, now we *need* him?

 

1 of Gindl, Komatsu, or Davis will likely take over that OF role... in the case of Davis becoming the next OF then Braun would likely have to play RF. I understand the defensive concerns with Braun in RF, but there's really no other solution, Davis' arm limits him to LF or 1B.

 

I've been on Hart's bandwagon since he was in AA, pissed and moaned because Mench had a roster spot over him, he's been one of my guys for a very long time. But he's not getting any younger and if you can get a legit prospect for him, then why not move him? The "he makes us a better team" defense really doesn't apply, because if you can replace him with similar production (not HR wise, OPS wise), similar to better defense, and acquire meaningful talent in the process than not only is the MLB team in good shpae, the organization has become stronger as whole. Plenty of teams have continued on the upswing after parting with a piece thought to be irreplaceable.

 

Way too many people around here want to manage the roster like they are playing checkers, which is also how Melvin manages the roster, playing whack-a-mole with holes year in and year out. I think it's more like chess, you want a sound strategy and depth to your plan. I won't get into the whole organization building concept again save this one thought... at some point the organization is going to have to start cycling the other way, instead of spending a continual stream of prospects the organization is going to have to start acquring prospects to maintain any sort of long-term stability. I know people like blockbuster trades and operating like we are a large market team, but that simply isn't our reality as the smallest market in MLB. Plenty of other franchises have had more success than we have without having to make the kinds of deals that Melvin has made.

 

There's a much wider view or focus that should be considered than just who plays RF in 2012 for the Milwaukee Brewers, however that's all many people are going to focus on. I'm not saying Hart is the guy to go, I'm saying the concept of trading Hart for a legitimate prospect or 2 is very sound. Maybe it's just me but if Melvin really did have the opportunity to spin Hart for Cain as was rumored years ago and passed it up, then he's looking pretty dumb. It would have been way more cost effective to acquire Cain and sign a decent OF than sign all the scrub FA pitchers only to trade away more impact talent this off season to acquire starting pitching. We're not only paying the salary of Marcum and Greinke, we'd paid a very steep price talent wise to acquire those pitchers... simply put it's the least cost effective way to operate a MLB franchise from a value standpoint. There are different opproaches out there, the focus doesn't have to be as narrow as Gindl/Komatsu/Davis vs Hart for 2012, people just choose to make the focus that narrow.

[RockCoCougars]

Doesn't Hart have a no trade clause in his deal?

[bobskube]

An offseason trade would be fine by me. Hart still struggles with the outside curveball too much.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Doesn't Hart have a no trade clause in his deal?

I do recall him having some type of no-trade, yes.

[logan82]

So which is it?

 

cheap free agent outfielders are usually pretty easy to find.

There aren't too many free agents out there capable of hitting .280 with

25 home runs who'd be willing to sign a one year deal for $9 million.

We can replace Hart or we can't?

 

I like Hart a lot but he is completely replaceable. Therefore I don't see why anybody would trade anything of value for him. I never wanted to extend him. It's all there in the Hart extension thread, you can look it up. If he was an average or good defender I would feel differently.

[GAME05]

yeah, i thought Hart had a limited no-trade for the first two years of the contract. who knows if that would hinder us at all, but i'm sure he listed any trade-likely teams to help himself.

 

a corner outfielder is never untradable, but the problem i'd have with replacing him with one of our OF prospects is that we'd then have a prospect sitting at 1B and one in RF. it's not that Gindl/Gamel couldn't eventually fill the void, but we'd really take a hit in terms of production with just Braun being the only reliable slugger in the lineup. as awesome as Fielder is, we still should be a legitimate Division contender next year, but i don't see that we would be if we suddenly replaced two of our three best hitters in the lineup.

[paul253]

We can replace Hart or we can't?

 

What I meant was that there are plenty of options should you go the FA route. They probably won't put up the same numbers as Hart but you can certainly get by with them. And you can probably sign one for fairly cheap. It's not like pitching where you need to offer an average to below average player a 3 year deal. And the free agency route is only if you don't have someone internally to replace him with. I'd be fine with Morgan, Gomez, and either Gindl or Komatsu plus another cheap vet in the outfield, especially if this allows us to upgrade at shortstop.

 

If we trade Hart will we replace him with someone who hits .280 with 25 home runs? Probably not. But we could probably find a nice .260 hitter who can put up a similar OBP and makes a third as

much money.

 

we still should be a legitimate Division contender next year, but i

don't see that we would be if we suddenly replaced two of our three best

hitters in the lineup.

 

I'm not sure I'd consider Hart our third best hitter. I think Weeks is better and, horrendous slump aside, McGehee has been just as good the past two years. And while Gamel hasn't been a full time player in Milwaukee yet, he's not your normal prospect. He's been with the big league club several times and is much older and more experienced than your typical prospect would be. Plus you could upgrade at other positions, particularly shortstop. Bentancourt is absolutely worthless. If you take Hart's money and give some of it to Furcal, your lineup would improve a little just by that.

[TooLiveBrew]

Per Cot's: limited no-trade clause (may block deals to 15 clubs)

[Roderick]

you have to think who'd you rather have. Hart and Bentacourt at $15 million total or Furcal and Komatsu/Gindl at maybe $8 million total. Plus, the defense would be much better as TLB said.

Well Furcal makes $11M this year. You think his salary will be $7.5 next year?

 

Plus I would assume Bentacourt is gone after this year regardless of any other wheeling and dealing. But if you are going to include him in any scenario his 2012 net cost is $4M, not $6M - as KC shipped $2M for the 2012 salary/buyout.

 

They better use that buyout money that KC sent them. The Brewers should use a minor leaguer @ $400K if they have to.

[paul253]

Well Furcal makes $11M this year. You think his salary will be $7.5 next year?

 

Well I think it will certainly be less that $11 million. I don't know how much teams would be will to give him but he's getting older, he's having some health issues and his offensive numbers are down. I don't think a 2 year $15 million deal is too far off. I could be wrong. Shortstops may earn more because they play a more premium position.

 

Plus I would assume Bentacourt is gone after this year regardless of any other wheeling and dealing.

 

I am not feeling as optimistic about that as you are. Apparently Melvin actually wanted him included in the trade I don't know why he'd do this but unless he feels he can sign someone like Reyes, Rollins, or Furcal, he may decide just to hang onto Bentancourt for one more year. I really hope I am wrong.

[DHonks]

I'm in no hurry to trade Hart, however, replacing him with Komatsu would likely improve the offense and defense. Komatsu would likely be a nice avg/obp guy with some pop, but the key is that he profiles as a good solid player that makes productive outs. His OBP would play nicely in the 2 or 6-8 holes. Of course, without Fielder we might have to consider finally putting Morgan or someone else leadoff to make better use of Rickie's power.

[CheezWizHed]

I'm in no hurry to trade Hart, however, replacing him with Komatsu would likely improve the offense and defense.

 

I'm a big fan of Little Pine, but he isn't ready to step in quite yet. Eventually, he will be an OBP improvement, but I don't think its a given that he will be better overall (offensively).

 

I'd think that we will at least see this year and next with Hart.

[DHonks]

CheezWizHed, I didn't mean to imply we should trade Hart anytime soon. I'm thinking that it's a possibility during the 2012-13 offseason. Even then, with Gindl, Morgan, Komatsu, and Shafer, we're awfully left-handed. So having Corey as a 115 game outfielder/DH/1b wouldn't hurt us. In fact, vs some tough lefties he could play some 1st base next year to spell Gamel.

[monty57]

When do we trade Corey Hart?

 

When we have someone reasonably capable of replacing him for a lower price and we can use the trade to increase our talent level elsewhere.

 

-We certainly aren't going to trade him this season

-It is a possibility this offseason, if someone from the minors looks ready to step in and we get a good offer for Hart.

-It looks very possible after next season, as the prospects will no longer be knocking, they will be pounding the door off the hinges.

 

While I believe Hart to be replaceable, I certainly don't want to trade him this offseason for an A/AA prospect if I believe his MLB replacement would be a downgrade. If some combination of Gindl/Schafer/Komatsu/etc could reasonably be expected to provide similar value at a cheaper price (not relative value, but absolute value) and we could use the salary relief to sign a top-tier SS and we picked up a "can't miss" AA prospect, then that would be hard to pass up.

[paul253]

If the Brewers pushed their prospects a little we could see whether or not Komatsu were able. He'll never bring the same kind of power as Hart, but I do think he'd be an upgrade defensively and with the OBP. Next season when Fielder leaves it'd be nice to utilize Weeks' power a little more by moving him down in the lineup. Morgan and Komatsu at 1 and 2 would be nice place setters for Weeks, Braun, McGehee and Gamel.