I can't get over how awful our bench is

[RockCoCougars]

"Just was curious . . . our bench of Rob Picciolo, Ned Yost, Ed Romero, Roy Howell, Marshall Edwards, Bob Skube, Mark Brouhard, and Don Money in '82 wasn't all that impressive either."

 

Take it back..... Brouhard was clutch. Howell and Money were both brutal though in a DH platoon (which the team was forced to go with due to another year of false Larry Hisle comeback hopes). I mentioned on another post how Josh Wilson is Picciolo to Counsell's Romero.

Money hit .284 with 16 homers and an .891 OPS in 1982. How is that brutal?

The only thing brutal in that was my memory. Just checked Money's career stats, and I had completely forgotten how well he hit in '82- I always remembered the 7 spot in the lineup as being a black hole, but I was wrong. I'm thinking that I probably transposed his '83 unto '82. Roy Howell was pretty much as I remembered him though.

[Oxy]

I defended the Nieves over Kottaras decision earlier in the year, but that is getting awfully hard to stand behind right now. I still think that Kottaras' hitting is overrated around here, but I didn't expect Nieves' bat to be THIS bad. Not only are the results terrible, but the eye test doesn't look good either. As others have said, I would honestly feel more comfortable with Gallardo hitting in an important situation than Nieves.

 

What would it take to get Pudge Rodriguez on this team? The Nats are going nowhere. The $3 million he is getting this year is probably a little bit much for a backup catcher, but it would only be for a couple of months. If we need a poor hitting veteran catcher who is a good example for Lucroy I can't imagine there is a better one than Pudge. I bet he would enjoy coming to a winning team to try and get another ring before he hangs them up as well.

[Funketown]

FWIW, Kottaras is really mashing in AAA. Hit 2 HR's last night. In 84 AB's he has a line of .321/.406/.524/.930. His Zips projection for the rest of the year is about .230/.320/.380/.700. That type of production would look pretty darn good coming off of this bench right now. Nieves ought to be leaving Milwaukee pretty soon.

[brwrsfan]

Sorry original poster, but just don't see this bench as something that this team should be worried about. For one, they are the bench; so, to look for stardom is a bit misguided, IMO... Two, they can look quite nice if looked at in a different light:

 

Gomez: .224 average, .359 slugging

-have we ever had that much speed off the bench? Or, defensive replacement security?

 

Kotsay: .250 average, .298 slugging

-veteran hitter who has seen all of both leagues...he came here because he knew he could be a bit player on a special team. I expect him to fulfill his expected role in an above average fashion.

 

Counsell: .197 average, .212 slugging

-two time WS winner? can that hurt for guys to be around? Can it hurt that he is 100% professional on and off the field? Can it hurt that at 41 he can still spell a SS?

 

Nieves: .152 average, .196 slugging

-very good defensive backup, to a young jason kendall clone who plays 85+% of games. Sure, argument can be made that Kottaras or Rivera serve as better backups; but, in the end, this is the least important role on the team.

 

Add another player...Wilson, whoever....and I think this bench is pretty much what you'd expect and hope for from a team that is good enough to qualify for and win in the playoffs.

 

Assume your best is good enough to get you to where you want to be and assume your extra guys can fill in the blanks. I think these guys are capable.

While none of what you said is really wrong (though I would take exception to Nieves being good defensively), those aren't exactly great qualities. Gomez I actually like on the bench, every team needs a speed guy with great defense. The rest....

 

For example....does it really matter if Counsell won 2 WS rings? He was a role player on both of those teams, and his production is basically non-existant. And yes, Kotsay is a veteran who has been around the block, but he doesn't really add much of anything that a guy like Katin doesn't posess, other than experience. There is something to be said for experience, but at some point production has to occur as well.

 

I think we can all agree that Nieves needs to be replaced. I just don't believe having a "veteran" behind Lucroy is that big of a deal, not to mention that Nieves doesn't have that much experience. He's bounced around but he has never really played regularlily anywhere and is simply not very good.

[reillymcshane]

How would you have liked these numbers from one player on our bench this year:

 

114 ABs, 6 HR, 15 RBI, .298 BA, .325 OBP, .816 OPS.

 

Thats Eric Hinkse, who we tried to sign, but wouldn't offer a two-year deal. Hinkse could have been playing instead of Kotsay in RF. He could be playing some for McGehee. And the power hitting left handed hitter off the bench would have been nice to have.

 

Oh well, he's 33, so I can see why we wouldn't offer a 2-year deal. And I don't know what his defense is like. Perhaps he can't play 3B anymore. Still, it's frustrating that we fill out our roster with such bad players. A 2-year, $3 million deal wouldn't have been a bad investment. He's a solid lefthanded stick. Plays multiple positions. Instead we have Kotsay.

 

Doah!

[thebruce44]

It also has a guy in Kotsay that may not be a HR threat but who will give you a quality AB almost every time.

I am really confused why people keep saying Kotsay gives you quality ABs. How can a player that inept at offense who gives such poor results be giving you quality ABs?

Is it because he takes a few pitches? Is that really a plus near the end of the game when PHs are needed?

I would rather have some OBP or SLG, something he has been miserable at the last few years.

[RockCoCougars]

The more that I've watched him, the more I'm convinced Kotsay is exactly the same player as Catalanotto was during his Brewers stint. You could do worse for a 5th outfielder, but you could do better as well. My primary concern with the bench is that (Wilson recent 'power surge' excepted) no one on this bench has any discernible power. That's a real issue that I don't think Kottaras or Boggs would remedy.

[Oxy]

I really don't think that Kotsay, Counsell, and Gomez/Morgan is a bad 3/5 of a bench, although Counsell is pretty shaky. I'm willing to ride Wilson for another month or so to see what he's got as well, but he'd really have to be outstanding to consider keeping him as part of the playoff roster. There isn't anything more to add about Nieves, or perhaps there isn't anything more to take away from Nieves would be more appropriate.

 

Ideally, we need a good defensive backup catcher who can hit at least as well as our best hitting pitcher, and a utility player with some pop in his bat (Juan Uribe like), or a utility player who is a defensive whiz since Bentacourt could be considered a utility player with pop in his bat.

[GB12]

Ideally, we need a good defensive backup catcher who can hit at least as well as our best hitting pitcher

I never understood this. Why exactly do we need our backup catcher to be a defensive specialist?

[Oxy]

Ideally, we need a good defensive backup catcher who can hit at least as well as our best hitting pitcher

I never understood this. Why exactly do we need our backup catcher to be a defensive specialist?

Because we already have enough offense to win low scoring games, but we NEED a good defensive catcher in order to win low scoring games. Obviously you have to balance the two of them in order to maximize your chances (Nieves' average to slightly below average defense ISN'T good enough to offset the atrociousness of his bat), but I just don't trust a guy like Kottaras at all behind the dish to win close games down the stretch.

[endaround]

That makes no sense. You maximize value by having the best players. There is no such thing as "enough offense".

[brwrsfan]

I would agree. You don't "need" a defensive catcher. If you have one, great. But if not, it's not really necessary. It's not like we're going to sub in a new catcher in the 8th inning as a defensive replacement like we might at the other positions.

[Oxy]

That makes no sense. You maximize value by having the best players. There is no such thing as "enough offense".

Of course you maximize value by having the best players. I am of the opinion that the best catchers ARE the best defensive catchers. I think it's that important. A lot of people here and around the rest of the internet may disagree, but that is only because there isn't a good statistical way of determining who the best defensive catchers are. We have to trust coaches and scouts instead of sabermetrics and Fangraphs. Imagine that.

 

This statement is only applicable at the catcher position, because that is the only position that is SURE to affect EVERY single game on defense. Offensively, guys only come up to bat 1/9 times and rarer still in high leverage situations. Thus, I think it is imperative that in order to consistently win close games you need a good defensive catcher. It was slightly less important 5-10 years ago since home runs were such a huge part of the game then, but right now I think that taking extra bases and limiting the other team from taking extra bases is a gigantic part of winning close games.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree somewhat, the problem is I don't see Nieves as a standout defensively. As someone here once said, I really wonder if managers don't convince themselves that a catcher that can't hit is a "defensive specialist."

 

What defense are we talking about anyhow? Throwing out runners? Nobody runs much anymore. And I don't think Nieves is that great at gunning runners out anyhow. Is it blocking the ball behind the plate? I don't notice anything special about Nieves there. Is it calling the game? I don't see Wolf being a Cy Young candidate.

 

There's just not enough there to justify a .120 OPS or whatever he has.

 

I'm ok with Kotsay and Wilson for now. Counsell's "old vet" thing sounds nice, I just don't buy it.

[logan82]

1) Kottaras for Nieves.

2) Green for one of Betancourt, Wilson or Counsell. Green platoons with McGehee.

3) Boggs for Kotsay. Kotsay has zero power. He is hitting for less power than Jason "noodle bat" Kendall did for us while he was here. In addition he cannot play defense at an acceptable level. Worst of all is the fact that for some reason our manager continues to give him starts. Just getting somebody in there who wouldn't take starts away from Hart would help the team. The best results happen when Kotsay doesn't swing.

 

 

Nobody is asking for or expecting great players on the bench. We just want some moves to be made to improve the roster. We don't need anybody special but there are a couple moves that would improve our bench. No trades needed. Guys already under our control.

[adambr2]

I can't get over the fact that Nieves is still here. It would be one thing if we had absolutely no one who could replace him, but that's obviously not the case.

 

I don't know what it is, but it almost feels like there's some sort of sports politics involved here. The disparity between Kottaras and Nieves is pretty big to keep ignoring like this.

[fondybrewfan]

It would be nice if we had a power bat on our bench right about now.......

[adambr2]

I understand we can't win every game, but there is literally no one on our bench that we can send in in a late game situation in a 1 run game with a chance to tie it up. So it's upsetting to me that DM and RR are satisfied with guys like Counsell, Kotsay and Nieves when Kottaras and Gamel are both available and Branyan was available. I don't expect us to win every game but I expect us to improve in ways that we can.

[monty57]

1) Kottaras for Nieves.

2) Green for one of Betancourt, Wilson or Counsell. Green platoons with McGehee.

3) Boggs for Kotsay. Kotsay has zero power. He is hitting for less power than Jason "noodle bat" Kendall did for us while he was here. In addition he cannot play defense at an acceptable level. Worst of all is the fact that for some reason our manager continues to give him starts. Just getting somebody in there who wouldn't take starts away from Hart would help the team. The best results happen when Kotsay doesn't swing.

 

 

Nobody is asking for or expecting great players on the bench. We just want some moves to be made to improve the roster. We don't need anybody special but there are a couple moves that would improve our bench. No trades needed. Guys already under our control.

I agree, and would add...

 

1) If Roenicke "needs" the veteran backup and/or doesn't like Kottaras, Rivera would be a vast improvement over Nieves. I don't understand our management's love of Nieves... he's worthless. Bringing up Rivera would also allow Kottaras and Maldonado to share time at AAA. Kottaras to work on his defense and Maldonado his offense. I think given reps that either of these players could be good, cheap backup catchers in the future.

2) Unless we trade for Furcal/Reyes, Betancourt isn't going away, but I agree that Green should be brought up in place of either Wilson or Counsell. I doubt we'll see a platoon, but Green should definitely get starts at 3B, while the survivor of Wilson/Counsell should get more starts at SS, giving Betancourt more bench-time. Personally, I'd keep the younger Wilson, but I don't think folk hero / Milwaukee native Counsell will get cut.

3) Either Boggs or Katin would be an improvement over Kotsay, and neither are young prospects who you wouldn't want to "rot away" on the bench.

 

A bench of Gomez/Morgan, Boggs, Wilson, Green, Rivera sure beats our current lot, but there seems to be a lot of "veteran love" in our management. There doesn't seem to be many other reasons for keeping Nieves, Counsell and Kotsay over guys who appear to be better options.

[brwrsfan]

The whole "veteran" angle is just a joke to me. Many guys on our roster have been around for quite awhile, and the core components (Braun, Fielder, Hart, Weeks, Yo) were all on our playoff roster. I don't believe we have anybody on the roster that qualifies as a rookie. The only guy we have even close is Lucroy (and maybe Braddock) but everyone else has been around long enough and seen enough stuff to not need "veteran leadership". The leaders on this team are Braun and Fielder, nobody is looking to Counsell or Kotsay for advice.

 

It's not a team full of rookies, these are experienced players that are almost "vets" themselves at this point.

[gregmag]

The suggestion above that this is a "lame" topic to discuss annoys me a bunch, and I'm glad brwrsfan brought it up. The question a GM should constantly be asking is: How can I improve the roster? I don't care if we're on a 20-6 run; you can always get better. You have to ask whether these are the best bench options available to us, because -- to paraphrase endaround's excellent point, you can never score or prevent too many runs. Taking a step back . . . at this point we have no one on the bench who provides a realistic chance of either getting on base or jacking a HR, unless you believe in Kotsay's OBP, which I don't. How can you look at a bench with no on-base guy and no power guy and say "That's not a problem"? I think I'm pretty close to what logan proposed above:

 

Everyone seems to agree that Gomez looks good as a bench player / spot starter, assuming Nyjer holds up his end of CF. That makes sense to me. Gomez actually does things that compensate for his lack of a bat, and even his bat will probably look better if you slot his appearances carefully.

 

Kotsay doesn't seem like he can play defense in a useful way, and he has no power. His OBP is okay so far. If we think he'll put up a .350 OBP over the season, then maybe he's as useful as Boggs would be in his place. I don't think he can do it, and I don't think it's enough. Boggs for Kotsay.

 

Nieves makes Gomez look like a hitter. It would be very difficult for Kottaras not to be an improvement. Heck, I suspect Maldonado would be an improvement.

 

The infield thing is, for me, the most complicated. Counsell's bat has deteriorated to the point where he doesn't really have "OBP skills"; all he can do is draw enough walks to turn a .200 BA into a .300 OBP. That isn't helpful. The question is whether his defense is still good enough to make his presence worthwhile. Certainly having a defense-first guy to back up our porous left-side infielders makes sense, but a defense-only guy? I'm not sure. I also don't have enough of a read on Wilson to judge him against Counsell. I'd love to dump Yuni, but he may not be worse than Counsell or Wilson. Green is a tough call, as another thread is discussing, because his fate is tied up with how much rope we give McGehee. I'd probably wait a while longer to bring him up, mainly for the sake of his development. All I know for sure is that looking around for something resembling a real ss should remain DM's highest priority.

[ReverendBrewmeister]

In my mind, the standard makeup of an NL team's bench should be:

(1) Backup C [starts 20% of games; plays in case of injury]

(2) Reserve OF [gives starter a day off; pinch runs, defensive sub]

(3) Reserve 2B/SS/3B [defense first; gives starter a day off]

(4) "Professional Hitter" [starts rallies; hits in 6th inning+ when pitcher's spot comes up with men on base]

(5) "Instant Offense"/"2nd Professional Hitter" [power threat; likely backup 1B/OF]

 

Compare that with the current bench, we see that #2 and #3 are set; the problems are with #1 and #5; #4 is so-so.

(1) Backup C

Currently a black hole.

Solution = bringing up Kottaras and cutting Nieves.

(2) Reserve OF

Gomez is provides great defense and speed. That's his niche and should be used accordingly, starting 1 game/week.

No change needed.

(3) Reserve 2B/SS/3B

There's redundancy with Counsell and Wilson. The problem is that neither fits the "professional hitter"/"instant offense" mold, Wilson's two HRs notwithstanding. So we have two glove men, when only one defensive IF is needed.

Solution = Drop either Wilson or Counsell to open up a spot on the 25-man roster. (At this point, I would drop Counsell.)

(4) "Professional Hitter"

This is Kotsay's spot right now on the bench. Room for improvement, but not the end of the world if not improved.

Figure on riding out the year with Kotsay......or how to clone Frank Catalanotto circa 2005.

 

(5) "Instant Offense"/"2nd Professional Hitter"

Not found on the current bench. This is what we've been griping about once the team got to full-strength in May. Looking back, this is where the failure to sign Eric Hinske in the offseason really hurts.

Solution A = Call up Mat Gamel to start road trip on June 13 / after 250 PA in AAA. (I have a hunch that that this might have been Melvin's plan from the start.)

Solution B = Obtain a veteran bat before the July 31 trade deadline. (e.g. Thome, Ludwick, Francouer)

 

The bench isn't great now, but it's improved from the "awful" status it had in April. One of the negative spots is easily fixed by ending the love affair with Nieves. The other true hole in the bench might be filled from within the organization. For a team with the budget like the Brewers, that isn't a bad spot to be in with mid-June arriving and the team headed towards 10 games over .500.

[monty57]

Katin would also be an answer to #5 above, but Melvin doesn't seem to know he exists.

[Tbadder]

Okay, this is a big if, but to me the Nieves bad/Wolf good scenario is way more important than the Kottaras good/Wolf bad scenario.

P.S. Nice breakdown ReverendBrewmeister.

[GB12]

Okay, this is a big if, but to me the Nieves bad/Wolf good scenario is way more important than the Kottaras good/Wolf bad scenario.

P.S. Nice breakdown ReverendBrewmeister.

That's the strongest, and probably only, argument for Nieves still being here. However, I don't buy it.