I can't get over how awful our bench is

[brwrsfan]

It's great that the Brewers are playing well and winning games right now but I just can't get over how utterly terrible the bench is. At some point, we're going to need some big pinch hits or if a starter were to go on the DL, that these are really the only options we would have to fill in.

 

I'll leave out Josh Wilson for now due to his small sample size with the Brewers, but here are the other 4 bench regulars right now (this is assuming Morgan starts most games in CF):

 

 

Gomez: .224 average, .359 slugging

Kotsay: .250 average, .298 slugging

Counsell: .197 average, .212 slugging

Nieves: .152 average, .196 slugging

 

 

It's hard to imagine any playoff team having virtually nothing available on the bench. I can't understand Nieves on the roster. I could understand Counsell, as he's versatile and was good last year but he seems to have clearly lost it. If we needed a HR to tie a game, I'd almost rather see Gallardo at the plate than any of these guys.

 

[liveforoctober]

Nieves is just a head scratcher at this point. No reason Kottaras shouldn't be up and on this team right now. With Wilson and Gomez we can't use the "don't have a righty on the bench" excuse anymore...

 

I wish, wish, wish that Kotsay had any ounce of power left in him...

[monty57]

I'd like to see Rivera over Nieves, but Roenicke has a crush on Nieves. I think the "Call up Taylor Green" thread makes some sense. We don't need both Wilson & Counsell, and Green should be able to outhit either of them. I'd like to bring Green up and either cut Counsell or send Wilson to AAA (if that's possible without him clearing waivers).

 

At some point, we're going to need some big pinch hits or if a starter were to go on the DL, that these are really the only options we would have to fill in.

 

That's the worrysome thing. We really don't have anyone in the system who could step up at most positions. With the Wilson pick-up, at least we'd have an everyday SS if Yuni went down. Per the theme of the thread, we could easily replace any of our bench players if they get hurt. However, we'll have a hard time compensating for any other injuries. We were fortunate that Estrada picked up the slack when Grienke got hurt, but now Estrada's not stretched out, so we don't even have him to fall back on. I don't think it's a coincidence that our team started playing much better once everyone (Lucroy, Hart, Greinke) got healthy

 

Maybe part of it is that we have star players at multiple positions, so they'd be hard to replace even if we did have a good farm system, but with our current set-up, we really have to hope & pray that we don't have any significant injuries to anyone on our roster going forward.

[dadofandrew]

I don't mind the bench at all, and by the looks of it, the PH numbers are 3rd in the NL.

 

I'm not sure what you'd consider a "good bench player"...obviously, they don't make much money, and obviously, you don't want a "prospect" wasting away on the bench, unless his ceiling is only that of a bench player (in which case, he's where he should be). Kotsay and Counsell are nearly perfect vets with decent OBP skills, Gomez is not a bad reserve OF, and Wilson/Nieves...well, I'm not sure if you've taken a glance around MLB, but SS's and C's don't hit, never mind reserve SS's and C's.

 

You know, in a utopian world you'd have a guy like Ryan Ludwick on the bench (as previously suggested in another thread), but realistically, guys like mirror Corey Hart's stats and make $5M or more don't sit on the bench. Maybe they can look to add a veteran bat in August, but as for now, they are a very solid defensive crew that gets on base.

 

EDIT: I just looked at the benches of the top three MLB teams...Cards, Phillies, Yankees...not many Ludwicks there either. SL has Allen Craig in amongst crap, Phillies...I dunno, Ross Gload? Yanks? Well, their starters are really good.

 

 

(edit: fixed link --1992)

[liveforoctober]

I don't mind the bench at all, and by the looks of it, the PH numbers are 3rd in the NL.

When looking at those stats you have to remember that 2 of those 3 home runs came from Braun on Friday and McGehee off of Kerry Wood... take those two out and our slugging drops quite a bit.

 

 

(edit: fixed link in quote --1992)

[jeffy]

if a starter were to go on the DL, that these are really the only options we would have to fill in.

 

That's not true, they could call someone up from the minors. For example if Lucroy were injured, it does not necessarily mean that Nieves gets more starts, it might mean Kottaras comes up and takes over. I don't follow minor leagues, so I don't know all that might be ready for MLB but for one example they could call up Gamel to play, I assume, 1st or 3rd now, if there were an injury.

[pitchleague]

IIt's hard to imagine any playoff team having virtually nothing available on the bench.

Just was curious . . . our bench of Rob Picciolo, Ned Yost, Ed Romero, Roy Howell, Marshall Edwards, Bob Skube, Mark Brouhard, and Don Money in '82 wasn't all that impressive either.

 

Someone else said the same type of thing with the Cards, Phils and Yanks.

 

You just won't really be getting those "better" bench guys until the trading deadline, if at all.

[logan82]

You just won't really be getting those "better" bench guys until the trading deadline, if at all.

The problem in my opinion is that we have had opportunities to pick up some good bench players or at the very least improve our bench and have not done so. Heck we could probably go down to AAA and bring up 2-3 players who would make our bench better than our current players. That is more frustrating than anything else.

[Bombers]

I think you will be able to find a ray Durham type near the deadline

[dadofandrew]

All teams have regulars PH part of the time...that should level out.

[endaround]

pitchleague]

IIt's hard to imagine any playoff team having virtually nothing available on the bench.

Just was curious . . . our bench of Rob Picciolo, Ned Yost, Ed Romero, Roy Howell, Marshall Edwards, Bob Skube, Mark Brouhard, and Don Money in '82 wasn't all that impressive either.

 

Someone else said the same type of thing with the Cards, Phils and Yanks.

 

You just won't really be getting those "better" bench guys until the trading deadline, if at all.

Don Money? He of the .284/.360/.531 line in 1982?

The Cards have two bench players in Craig and Jay that are really good.

The Yankees have Chavez and Dickerson hitting along with A. Jones's power

The Phillies have Brown/Ruiz

No the bench is an issue. Not sure how you could say otherwise since the Kotsay/Almonte platoon was about a win below replacement filling in for Hart.

 

[MNBrew]

Money & Howell pretty much platooned full-time in the DH role, so they weren't backups any more than John Lowenstein & Gary Roenicke were for the Orioles at the same time when they were the regular LF platoon.

 

Money was solid enough even at his age in '82. Howell was a FA bust and generally didn't add what he was expected to do when the signed him. Without delving into stats, functionally speaking Mark Brouhard was a younger RH-hitting Mark Kotsay with less of a track record of MLB success and probably less defensive skill. Marshall Edwards, Ned Yost, Rob Picciolo, & maybe to a lesser extent Ed Romero, were kinda the '82 roster's equivalents of Gomez, Nieves, Almonte (sort of), and Counsell, respectively -- and not one of those four '82 guys ever struck fear in the hearts of an opposing pitcher.

 

. . . . I'd think Kottaras in the mix over Nieves would at least improve the overall outlook of our bench situation. Wilson's not a detriment and has been useful so far -- far more so than Almonte. Kotsay is nothing special anymore but other than not hitting for power, he's not yet to the point of terrible (or at least he offers more hope than Gomez & Betancourt when he has the bat in his hands, not that that's saying much).

[bucksman4]

I have no doubt that Melvin will trade for bench help at the deadline. The problem is RR loves Kotsay so much he will still be the first player he would choose to use in a clutch situation.

 

What we need more than anything is a power threat, Bob Hamlin type (not joking) who can step up in a game late in the season/playoffs and provide a long ball on occasion (and no, Josh Wilson won't cut it there).

[pitchleague]

yeah, I knew that about Howell and Money, but I put them on my list since half the time they were each "on the bench."

[GLem]

Sorry original poster, but just don't see this bench as something that this team should be worried about. For one, they are the bench; so, to look for stardom is a bit misguided, IMO... Two, they can look quite nice if looked at in a different light:

 

Gomez: .224 average, .359 slugging

 

-have we ever had that much speed off the bench? Or, defensive replacement security?

 

Kotsay: .250 average, .298 slugging

-veteran hitter who has seen all of both leagues...he came here because he knew he could be a bit player on a special team. I expect him to fulfill his expected role in an above average fashion.

 

Counsell: .197 average, .212 slugging

-two time WS winner? can that hurt for guys to be around? Can it hurt that he is 100% professional on and off the field? Can it hurt that at 41 he can still spell a SS?

 

Nieves: .152 average, .196 slugging

-very good defensive backup, to a young jason kendall clone who plays 85+% of games. Sure, argument can be made that Kottaras or Rivera serve as better backups; but, in the end, this is the least important role on the team.

 

Add another player...Wilson, whoever....and I think this bench is pretty much what you'd expect and hope for from a team that is good enough to qualify for and win in the playoffs.

 

Assume your best is good enough to get you to where you want to be and assume your extra guys can fill in the blanks. I think these guys are capable.

[dlk9s]

Each of the bench guys offers something useful (except for maybe Nieves, but at least he's solid defensively). The biggest problem is the lack of power. As others have said, it would be nice to have a guy PH in the late innings who you know would at least have a chance to hit one out.

[theavrock]

I only really have a problem with Nieves. He sucks bad. The only reason he is a "defensive specialist" is because he can't hit a lick. I haven't seen anything that warrants that title.

 

I am conflicted about Counsell, because I love the guy and he plays great D. But man it feels like he has lost it offensively.

 

If we can bring in an IF to who has some pop off the bench for Wilson and get rid of Nieves for Kottaras I'll be much happier with the bench.

[JohnBriggs12]

This bench isn't going to cost them a division title. While it lacks a power guy, it has speed that is very useful late in games with Gomez. It also has a guy in Kotsay that may not be a HR threat but who will give you a quality AB almost every time. Counsell's defense is still good enough that he really doesn't need to hit all that much. I wasn't thrilled with Wilson, but give the guy credit, he's already won a game for them, and if he does nothing the rest of the year, that could be significant.

 

They probably have two better options than Nieves but apparently Randy Wolf is keeping him around as his security blanket. If he makes Wolf that much better then he has value.

 

I suppose when a team is on a 20-6 run, people have to look pretty hard to find flaws. Fretting about the bench is pretty lame.

[DuWayne Steurer]

2 things here........

 

1.) I do believe we could and should have a better bench. We have no power, and our backup catcher sucks as much as one player can suck.

 

2.) If you look around the league, almost everyone has a sucky bench. The Braves have Hinske and Ross, and the Phillies have a nice bench. But for the most part, as you go around the league, you're going to find a bunch of .550 - .650 OPS guys taking up most of the room on just about everybody's bench.

 

They're bench players for a reason, because they're not good enough to be starters. It'd be great to have a bench full of .800 OPS guys, but it just doesn't work that way. Like I said though, I'd like to see at least ONE guy that could at least potentially come out late in a game with some pop.

[brwrsfan]

I'm not saying we need to have a bunch of all stars or top level prospects riding the pine, but I don't think it's asking all that much for our bench to have a composite average that is above .220 with virtually no power.

 

As been shown, contending teams (such as the Cards, Braves, Phillies and Yankees) do have solid players on the bench, where we really have a bunch of washouts or has beens. If we needed a HR (with say 2 outs in the 9th), who would you call on? Gomez? Gallardo?

 

And the bench DOES matter, these guys ARE getting sport starts at least once a week and they're horrible. It's a minor thing but the bench is a problem and is something that I feel needs to be addressed at some point. It's fine to have speed, and there are some useful parts on the bench, but as a whole, it leaves much to be desired.

[RockCoCougars]

"Just was curious . . . our bench of Rob Picciolo, Ned Yost, Ed Romero, Roy Howell, Marshall Edwards, Bob Skube, Mark Brouhard, and Don Money in '82 wasn't all that impressive either."

 

Take it back..... Brouhard was clutch. Howell and Money were both brutal though in a DH platoon (which the team was forced to go with due to another year of false Larry Hisle comeback hopes). I mentioned on another post how Josh Wilson is Picciolo to Counsell's Romero.

[DuWayne Steurer]

"Just was curious . . . our bench of Rob Picciolo, Ned Yost, Ed Romero, Roy Howell, Marshall Edwards, Bob Skube, Mark Brouhard, and Don Money in '82 wasn't all that impressive either."

 

Take it back..... Brouhard was clutch. Howell and Money were both brutal though in a DH platoon (which the team was forced to go with due to another year of false Larry Hisle comeback hopes). I mentioned on another post how Josh Wilson is Picciolo to Counsell's Romero.

Money hit .284 with 16 homers and an .891 OPS in 1982. How is that brutal?

[COBrewerfan]

I am in the camp of thinking that a bench is not going to be that great on any team. The people listed, even on teams like the Yanks and Phils are nothing special. Chavez, Ruiz and Andruw Jones? And that is great? Yikes. Teams with the higher payrolls may have a guy that most teams could not afford on their bench but overall it is not a place to spend money. Like last night, these guys get put in one at a time (Kotsay for Hart) and just gives guys a rest. With everyone healthy, you put in Gomez, Counsell and Kotsay to spell a guy for a day but the lineup is still a tough one with the rest of the guys we have.

 

For a small market, our lineup is really, really good and I have a hard time complaining about this team. This is really just drawing at straws here.

[adambr2]

Sorry original poster, but just don't see this bench as something that this team should be worried about. For one, they are the bench; so, to look for stardom is a bit misguided, IMO... Two, they can look quite nice if looked at in a different light:

 

Gomez: .224 average, .359 slugging

-have we ever had that much speed off the bench? Or, defensive replacement security?

 

Kotsay: .250 average, .298 slugging

-veteran hitter who has seen all of both leagues...he came here because he knew he could be a bit player on a special team. I expect him to fulfill his expected role in an above average fashion.

 

Counsell: .197 average, .212 slugging

-two time WS winner? can that hurt for guys to be around? Can it hurt that he is 100% professional on and off the field? Can it hurt that at 41 he can still spell a SS?

 

Nieves: .152 average, .196 slugging

-very good defensive backup, to a young jason kendall clone who plays 85+% of games. Sure, argument can be made that Kottaras or Rivera serve as better backups; but, in the end, this is the least important role on the team.

 

Add another player...Wilson, whoever....and I think this bench is pretty much what you'd expect and hope for from a team that is good enough to qualify for and win in the playoffs.

 

Assume your best is good enough to get you to where you want to be and assume your extra guys can fill in the blanks. I think these guys are capable.

 

The only problems I have with this are --

 

- Nieves is not a "very good" defensive backup. He is average at best defensively and absolutely atrocious offensively. If he really were very good defensively, enough to make up for his terrible offense, I could see the argument being made to keep him, but right now there's absolutely no good reason that Kottaras isn't up. His role is limited, I agree, but the fact that he starts for our major league team is too big of a role IMO.

 

- I don't see Counsell being a role player on 2 WS teams making much of a difference. I'd agree though that it's nice to have someone there who can give you a good eye at the plate and play all over the infield. I don't think he's got much left in the tank, but he can still be useful to us this season.

[markedman5]

Kottaras is just mashing in triple A right now. Hit 2 more dingers last night.