JJ Hardy

[TheCrew]

Furcal will be much cheaper, he's also more talented - although he is a bigger health risk...... but then again, JJ isn't exactly a sure thing health wise either.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see 3B upgraded - even internally - before SS.

[Warning Track Power]

Furcal will be much cheaper, he's also more talented - although he is a bigger health risk...... but then again, JJ isn't exactly a sure thing health wise either.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see 3B upgraded - even internally - before SS.

I think you may be the only one. Casey has at least had two good offensive seasons for us to fall back on to pin hopes on a turnaround. Can we say that YuBet has ever had a "good" season?

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

I'd give them Green, a young reliever (Dillard, McClendon, etc.) and a couple of top 10 pitching prospects for Reynolds and Hardy. If they want McGehee, I'd kick him in as well (and Wilson or Yuni if they need a warm body at short for the rest of the season)

[Raw Biz]

I'd give them Green, a young reliever (Dillard, McClendon, etc.) and a couple of top 10 pitching prospects for Reynolds and Hardy. If they want McGehee, I'd kick him in as well (and Wilson or Yuni if they need a warm body at short for the rest of the season)

I wouldn't (and I don't know if that would even be enough from the O's side). Hardy would be a rental, has a hard time staying healthy, and I wouldn't want to pay what it would cost to resign him. And Reynolds hasn't been a very good defender, strikes out way too much for my taste (even if K's are overrated by some, 200 is a ton), and barely hits .220. I really like Green and think he can be a solid contributor at 3rd. We'll also need our pitching prospects if we can't resign Marcum and/or Greinke. And if we want to resign Hardy, at least one of them (if not both) wouldn't be resigned.

[Warning Track Power]

I'd give them Green, a young reliever (Dillard, McClendon, etc.) and a couple of top 10 pitching prospects for Reynolds and Hardy. If they want McGehee, I'd kick him in as well (and Wilson or Yuni if they need a warm body at short for the rest of the season)

I wouldn't (and I don't know if that would even be enough from the O's side). Hardy would be a rental, has a hard time staying healthy, and I wouldn't want to pay what it would cost to resign him. And Reynolds hasn't been a very good defender, strikes out way too much for my taste (even if K's are overrated by some, 200 is a ton), and barely hits .220. I really like Green and think he can be a solid contributor at 3rd. We'll also need our pitching prospects if we can't resign Marcum and/or Greinke. And if we want to resign Hardy, at least one of them (if not both) wouldn't be resigned.

Respectfully, I disagree about a few things. Hardy would not be a rental. The Brewers have zero viable internal candidates to play SS in 2012 or 2013. Hardy would be re-signed to a multi-year deal and I speculate it would be approximately 3 year $21-$24MM ($7-$8MM/AAV), a price worth paying given we have Gamel, McGehee and Lucroy in the everyday lineup making close to league minimum.

 

Secondly, a re-signed JJ doesn't inhibit our ability to re-sign a Greinke or Marcum. Betancourt and Hawkins salary come off the books at the end of the year and they make $8MM combined in 2011. Plus Betancourt's buyout is paid by the Royals IIRC. I'd gladly give all those dollars straight to JJ. This should allow for the lack of Prince's $15.5MM to be targeted for Greinke/Marcum. Plus Wolf's salary is off the books after 2012, when Marcum and Greinke extensions would begin.

 

I do agree though about Reynolds. I have zero interest. He'd be the Strikeout King of the Midwest. He reminds of Betancourt, similar glove with more power and the ability to draw a walk, but very likely a worse average.

 

I'd gladly give up Green + one of Peralta/Rivas for JJ. I'd even do McGehee + Peralta/Rivas for JJ and call up Green to play 3B. (I'd probably trade for a backup plan at 3B like Casey Blake as insurance in that case though)

[ramssuperbowl99]

I'd give them Green, a young reliever (Dillard, McClendon, etc.) and a couple of top 10 pitching prospects for Reynolds and Hardy. If they want McGehee, I'd kick him in as well (and Wilson or Yuni if they need a warm body at short for the rest of the season)

I wouldn't (and I don't know if that would even be enough from the O's side). Hardy would be a rental, has a hard time staying healthy, and I wouldn't want to pay what it would cost to resign him. And Reynolds hasn't been a very good defender, strikes out way too much for my taste (even if K's are overrated by some, 200 is a ton), and barely hits .220. I really like Green and think he can be a solid contributor at 3rd. We'll also need our pitching prospects if we can't resign Marcum and/or Greinke. And if we want to resign Hardy, at least one of them (if not both) wouldn't be resigned.

Respectfully, I disagree about a few things. Hardy would not be a rental. The Brewers have zero viable internal candidates to play SS in 2012 or 2013. Hardy would be re-signed to a multi-year deal and I speculate it would be approximately 3 year $21-$24MM ($7-$8MM/AAV), a price worth paying given we have Gamel, McGehee and Lucroy in the everyday lineup making close to league minimum.

 

Secondly, a re-signed JJ doesn't inhibit our ability to re-sign a Greinke or Marcum. Betancourt and Hawkins salary come off the books at the end of the year and they make $8MM combined in 2011. Plus Betancourt's buyout is paid by the Royals IIRC. I'd gladly give all those dollars straight to JJ. This should allow for the lack of Prince's $15.5MM to be targeted for Greinke/Marcum. Plus Wolf's salary is off the books after 2012, when Marcum and Greinke extensions would begin.

 

I do agree though about Reynolds. I have zero interest. He'd be the Strikeout King of the Midwest. He reminds of Betancourt, similar glove with more power and the ability to draw a walk, but very likely a worse average.

 

I'd gladly give up Green + one of Peralta/Rivas for JJ. I'd even do McGehee + Peralta/Rivas for JJ and call up Green to play 3B. (I'd probably trade for a backup plan at 3B like Casey Blake as insurance in that case though)

You guys do realize that JJ Hardy is a type A Free Agent who is going to turn down arbitration right? Most of the deals listed here aren't even worth the picks they'll end up getting.

And Peralta/Rivas? One of them should never see the big league level and the other was just an honorable mention on a midseason top 50 list. They are anything but interchangeable.

I also can't imagine the O's even considering any of the deals in the posts I've quoted.

 

[Raw Biz]

I'd give them Green, a young reliever (Dillard, McClendon, etc.) and a couple of top 10 pitching prospects for Reynolds and Hardy. If they want McGehee, I'd kick him in as well (and Wilson or Yuni if they need a warm body at short for the rest of the season)

I wouldn't (and I don't know if that would even be enough from the O's side). Hardy would be a rental, has a hard time staying healthy, and I wouldn't want to pay what it would cost to resign him. And Reynolds hasn't been a very good defender, strikes out way too much for my taste (even if K's are overrated by some, 200 is a ton), and barely hits .220. I really like Green and think he can be a solid contributor at 3rd. We'll also need our pitching prospects if we can't resign Marcum and/or Greinke. And if we want to resign Hardy, at least one of them (if not both) wouldn't be resigned.

Respectfully, I disagree about a few things. Hardy would not be a rental. The Brewers have zero viable internal candidates to play SS in 2012 or 2013. Hardy would be re-signed to a multi-year deal and I speculate it would be approximately 3 year $21-$24MM ($7-$8MM/AAV), a price worth paying given we have Gamel, McGehee and Lucroy in the everyday lineup making close to league minimum.

 

Secondly, a re-signed JJ doesn't inhibit our ability to re-sign a Greinke or Marcum. Betancourt and Hawkins salary come off the books at the end of the year and they make $8MM combined in 2011. Plus Betancourt's buyout is paid by the Royals IIRC. I'd gladly give all those dollars straight to JJ. This should allow for the lack of Prince's $15.5MM to be targeted for Greinke/Marcum. Plus Wolf's salary is off the books after 2012, when Marcum and Greinke extensions would begin.

 

I do agree though about Reynolds. I have zero interest. He'd be the Strikeout King of the Midwest. He reminds of Betancourt, similar glove with more power and the ability to draw a walk, but very likely a worse average.

 

I'd gladly give up Green + one of Peralta/Rivas for JJ. I'd even do McGehee + Peralta/Rivas for JJ and call up Green to play 3B. (I'd probably trade for a backup plan at 3B like Casey Blake as insurance in that case though)

First, I meant that in my scenario, in that trade, Hardy would be a rental because I wouldn't want to resign him for what he would probably ask for (I was thinking more along the lines of 9-10 mil/year). Second, I wouldn't do your first trade but I would probably do the second. As likeable as McGehee is as a person, he really doesn't seem to be anything special anymore. Maybe this year is a fluke but his minor league numbers suggest he's actually closer to this year's numbers than the previous year and a half (though he still could be a ..700-750 OPS guy). And since we're going all-in this year, our hole at SS would need to be filled so I'd trade one of our top pitching prospects not named Thornburg for JJ. Having JJ and Green on the left-side would be a huge upgrade. As far as resigning JJ, if it would take 7-8 mil like you said, I would probably do that since we don't have anyone coming up soon. However, I disagree that you can just say that money would basically equal Hawkins/Yuni's salaries coming off because there will be raises elsewhere (Weeks and Hart in particular, though losing Prince will offset some of that too).

Edit- Re: ramssuperbowl's comments --> I know the O's probably wouldn't consider any of those deals. I said that in one of my previous posts. But I also said that even if they would accept that, I don't know if I would do the first deal. As for the second deal I mentioned above, yeah I would do that even though the O's wouldn't.

 

[ramssuperbowl99]

Edit- Re: ramssuperbowl's comments --> I know the O's probably wouldn't consider any of those deals. I said that in one of my previous posts. But I also said that even if they would accept that, I don't know if I would do the first deal. As for the second deal I mentioned above, yeah I would do that even though the O's wouldn't.

Okay, well I'd imagine the O's would want Peralta/Thornburg to start, then likely a hitter with some upside ala Hunter Morris to keep them on the phone.

[Warning Track Power]

Edit- Re: ramssuperbowl's comments --> I know the O's probably wouldn't consider any of those deals. I said that in one of my previous posts. But I also said that even if they would accept that, I don't know if I would do the first deal. As for the second deal I mentioned above, yeah I would do that even though the O's wouldn't.

Okay, well I'd imagine the O's would want Peralta/Thornburg to start, then likely a hitter with some upside ala Hunter Morris to keep them on the phone.

 

I don't believe this. From my knowledge of the O's system, pitching is their real strength. I think that a package comprised of hitting is the most likely target. Yes, I proposed Green + Rivas/Peralta, but I think they are more apt to go after whatever hitting prospects they deem most attractive to them. I for one would give them any combination of hitting prospects in the minors right now for JJ. I don't know of any real blue chippers in the minors right now that I would deem untouchable, plus we seem relatively set at the MLB level in terms of everyday players for at least the next 3 seasons with Gamel filling Prince's role, giving us the luxury of letting them pick. The only hole potentially may be 3B depending on how McGehee rebounds, but I feel comfortable moving forward in CF with Gomez if we can acquire a decent hitting SS like JJ. Whether the O's deem our hitting prospects enough to warrant possibly passing on 2 1st round picks is definitely debatable. I would still feel comfortable giving the O's a package of Green, Morris, Peralta/Rivas. I think we could be that good with JJ at SS.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Edit- Re: ramssuperbowl's comments --> I know the O's probably wouldn't consider any of those deals. I said that in one of my previous posts. But I also said that even if they would accept that, I don't know if I would do the first deal. As for the second deal I mentioned above, yeah I would do that even though the O's wouldn't.

Okay, well I'd imagine the O's would want Peralta/Thornburg to start, then likely a hitter with some upside ala Hunter Morris to keep them on the phone.

 

I don't believe this. From my knowledge of the O's system, pitching is their real strength. I think that a package comprised of hitting is the most likely target. Yes, I proposed Green + Rivas/Peralta, but I think they are more apt to go after whatever hitting prospects they deem most attractive to them. I for one would give them any combination of hitting prospects in the minors right now for JJ. I don't know of any real blue chippers in the minors right now that I would deem untouchable, plus we seem relatively set at the MLB level in terms of everyday players for at least the next 3 seasons with Gamel filling Prince's role, giving us the luxury of letting them pick. The only hole potentially may be 3B depending on how McGehee rebounds, but I feel comfortable moving forward in CF with Gomez if we can acquire a decent hitting SS like JJ. Whether the O's deem our hitting prospects enough to warrant possibly passing on 2 1st round picks is definitely debatable. I would still feel comfortable giving the O's a package of Green, Morris, Peralta/Rivas. I think we could be that good with JJ at SS.

Why do you keep putting Peralta and Rivas as interchangeable pieces? They aren't even close to comparable prospects.

I'd rather have 1 guy of Wily Peralta's caliber than 100 of Aumary Rivas'.

[TheCrew07]

What's the organization's major flaw been for as long as any of us can remember? I submit it's developing pitching at rate that can even sustain the team at all.

 

Look at how many of our pitchers came through our own system, look at how much it cost to acquire our pitchers, look at how much it cost to acquire Sabathia.

 

We'll never get over the hump trading pitching for hitting, it's that simple. The organization hasn't been able to develop pitching of any kind on any sort of consistent basis. I understand many posters just want to win at all costs, but that's not any way to sustain the success of the MLB team, even on a short term basis. Look at the other prominent small market teams, how many of those teams have made 1 deal for pitching like we have? Yet we've made 3 of those deals, and still people want to continue to make those kind of deals. Is it because those moves get all the headlines? There's a different way, and unsung way, in which talent keeps cycling back to Milwaukee and the organization can sustain itself without maxing out the payroll year and year out. In fact I keep reading how Mark A. is a deep pockets owner... as if the money for the team is coming directly out of his pocket? It doesn't cost him anything if he puts the team in the red, he can just borrow against the value of the team to make payroll. We want to play like the big boys that get all press and all of the analysis, even though that's not our reality, we don't have that kind of money at our disposal and never will. The state (mostly the Milwaukee area) has done a fantastic job supporting the Brewers by any measure, which has enable the payroll to sit around 90 for years now, but where else can the team go to get revenue? What's left?

 

We have to be smarter than those teams to compete with them and make our assets go farther. Certainly risks have to be taken along the way, but Milwaukee cannot continually cycle away prospects and maintain success at MLB. It's a 25 man MLB roster, every starting position player and pitcher simply cannot make 8 digit salaries, there's not enough money to go around, not even high 7 figure salaries, even with a 90 million payroll. The team needs a yearly influx of productive and cheap talent to make work it, somewhere we have to buy wins at a discounted rate, because we don't have payroll to buy enough wins any other way. People hope we traded relievers and a possibly a starter like Fiers to get K-Rod but are talking here about letting someone like Hawkins walk. If we don't have the prospects to replace his productivity, then we're back spending market value on more relief pitching, in addition to a FA SS, in 2013 (if not sooner due to injury) we'll need more starting pitching, and the beat goes on. Do we not see this same cycle of events repeating itself over and over? The Brewers haven't excactly hit home runs trying to replace the talent we graduated to MLB and traded away, we've simply run out of resources, that's why the system is rated so poorly. We have some nice players in the system, but it's nothing like having Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Fielder, Gallardo, Parra, and so on in the system all at the same time... and yes I know Parra failed, but that doesn't diminish his talent or prospect status, we don't have a LHP anywhere near his quality in A ball or higher. In fact we only have 1 starting pitcher in the entire system who's been consistently dominant at every stop. It's time to stop the bleeding, this is a slow death.

 

If Melvin can swing deals for blocked position players like Farris... by all means make a deal, but enough is enough, especially pitching wise. None of what the Brewers have done is sustainable... the payroll isn't sustainable without 3 million fans, but 3 million fans isn't sustainable without a winning product, and if there isn't enough talent on the team then they won't win. A marginal win costs somewhere between 4-5 million dollars on a yearly basis, how many wins can we buy paying market value with 90 million dollars of payroll? Simple math tells you 18-23 wins... that isn't much. If every team truly wins and loses 60 games, that puts us right around where we've hovered the last 2 seasons, average to below average with 78-83 wins. 3 million fans aren't going to come out on a consistent basis to see that. This stuff isn't rocket science, it's simple math and common sense. Furthermore, we don't want to be signing guys into their 30s, we want to be trading them as they approach that age or letting them walk to free agency bringing up younger/cheaper/healthier and hopefully just as productive players from the system to replace them. It might take a year or 3 for each player to start producing on a consistent basis, but young talent blossoms at it's own rate, we're unlikely to get same instant level of production that we did with Fielder and Braun. Those guys were just that special.

[Warning Track Power]

Why do you keep putting Peralta and Rivas as interchangeable pieces? They aren't even close to comparable prospects.

I'd rather have 1 guy of Wily Peralta's caliber than 100 of Aumary Rivas'.

100% agreed. I use them interchangeably only because it seems like they, + Rogers, are generally considered to be our top pitching prospects not named Thornburg. Had Rogers not been hurt I would have given you a Peralta/Rivas/Rogers slash. That is the only reason I had linked them interchangeably.

 

 

[ramssuperbowl99]

Why do you keep putting Peralta and Rivas as interchangeable pieces? They aren't even close to comparable prospects.

I'd rather have 1 guy of Wily Peralta's caliber than 100 of Aumary Rivas'.

100% agreed. I use them interchangeably only because it seems like they, + Rogers, are generally considered to be our top pitching prospects not named Thornburg. Had Rogers not been hurt I would have given you a Peralta/Rivas/Rogers slash. That is the only reason I had linked them interchangeably.

 

I don't know anyone who considers Rivas a top pitching prospect. Sorry to disrespect the establishment, but a fringe fastball, fringe breaking ball, and average changeup is a guy who should never see the light of day in the MLB, let alone be considered a legitimate pitching prospect.

To get back to the discussion, Hardy is likely too expensive for the Brewers to acquire. With the Mets basically saying Reyes will cost more than it's worth and the utter lack of competent MLB SSs right now, if I'm the Orioles I hold Hardy hostage and wait for someone to overpay. The Brewers aren't really capable of overpaying for him, so I can't imagine he comes to Milwaukee.

 

[Bombers]

What's the organization's major flaw been for as long as any of us can remember? I submit it's developing pitching at rate that can even sustain the team at all.

 

Look at how many of our pitchers came through our own system, look at how much it cost to acquire our pitchers, look at how much it cost to acquire Sabathia.

I think Melvin has done a great job of the trades he has made. In all honesty I believe trades should be made often. Especially by teams like the Brewers. Trade 2 prospects for K-Rod, offer him arby, which he will decline. (If anyone disagree's he will decline ... He is 29 years old and has aspirations to pass Rivera & Hoffmann on the all times saves list. His agent is Scott Boras. He will be someone elses closer next year.) Then we get 2 draft picks. So the 2 guys we got rid of are basically back next June.

 

Look at our outfield. Braun is locked for an eternity. Morgan is a FA after the 2014 season. Hart is a free agent after the 2013 season. Any outfielder who is "ready" before 2014 is expendible. For the right guy, I make that trade every day of the week. Trade, trade, trade and trade again. We get a bizillion picks every year and I have confidence in our scouting and ability to raise our positional players. So we stink at drafting pitching. Whatever. Keep doing what your good at and trade positional picks for pitching. I am fine with it.

 

Take a look at the Rays. They had a huge opportunity the last few years to make a splash and didn't. They could have traded a Helickson lead package for Fielder. But they held tight and what did they get? Lost the World Series. I don't want to lose the World Series. I want to win it. Hind sight is always 20-20 but we should have traded Escobar when his value was at the highest, not lowest. Maybe signed Hardy to a 4 year deal in 2009. That contact would look especially good now as I am sure it would have been cheap.

 

I agree with you that we cannot have multi-million dollar players at every position, but you can have some. Look at the starting 8, Lucroy, Morgan, McGehee are all minimum salary players. Braun, Hart, Weeks have decent deals and Fielder gets a lot. Yuni sucks and should be collecting unemployment. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

All in all, I like the trades and I trust in Melvin. If he moves some outfielders, and a pitcher for Hardy. Fine with me. I trust he has done his homework.

[TheCrew]

Honestly, I'd rather see 3B upgraded - even internally - before SS.

I think you may be the only one. Casey has at least had two good offensive seasons for us to fall back on to pin hopes on a turnaround. Can we say that YuBet has ever had a "good" season?

Casey is Yuni at 3B - except he is even worse this season. Above average offense and below average defense for the position - neither players have lived up to what we expected offensively this year. It's time to make a move at both spots, but imo 3b is more of a need considering McGehee bats in a far more critical spot in the lineup (where he shouldn't be - but that's for another topic).

 

We don't have 2 full season for McGehee at the MLB level with success - we have one and maybe 2/3rds of another. We also have a lot more data of what he did in the minors previous to that and it suggest that 2009-2010 was an aberration and while Casey shouldn't be as bad as he is now, he probably is close to this type of player rather than what he gave us previously.

[Invader3K]

The thing is that the 3B issue can easily be solved internally by calling up Taylor Green, who is red hot down in AAA Nashville right now. For some reason, Doug Melvin seems reluctant to make such a move for whatever reason.

[JohnBriggs12]

Furcal will be much cheaper, he's also more talented - although he is a bigger health risk...... but then again, JJ isn't exactly a sure thing health wise either.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see 3B upgraded - even internally - before SS.

I think you may be the only one. Casey has at least had two good offensive seasons for us to fall back on to pin hopes on a turnaround. Can we say that YuBet has ever had a "good" season?

He's not the only one, I agree with him.

 

Betancourt hit .289 and slugged over .400 his first two full seasons in the majors. Sure, his OBP was low, but for a SS,. a .289 BA and SP over .400 is quite good. More important though is what is going to happen the next couple months. Betancourt is much more predictable than McGehee. We know Betancourt puts the ball in play. In fact, he probably puts too many in play, but I digress. His BABIP is a career low .246, leading to a BA of .240. If anything changes with Betancourt it will be that a few more balls he puts into play will fall in so it's pretty safe to assume what you are going to get with him, a BA of at least .250 with an OBP not much higher, and a SP between .350 and .400. That's still not good, but it's not off the charts bad for the position he plays.

 

Who knows what McGehee will do the next couple months? Since May 1, he's hitting under .200. He's never had a slump like this in the major leagues, so it's anybody's guess if he can pull out of it. If he does, certainly he has more upside than Betancourt, but he also plays a more offensive position and it may be easier to find an upgrade (they may have one internally) than it is to find one at SS.

 

Fielding wise, they are probably a wash. SS is the more important position, but McGehee has 3 more errors than Betancourt. Both are below average, though Betancourt hasn't been nearly as awful as he is portrayed.

[HiAndTight]

HiAndTight wrote:

I think it's dumb because I don't think he's worth the money it will

cost to resign him (7-8 being on the cheaper end). Would I like to have

him now? Well yeah because he's better than Yuni. But would I like to

sign him to an extension for what he would want? No.

 

A defensive stud that puts up a .750-.800 OPS? What do you think a guy like that is going to get on the open market? I think 7-8 million is on the low end for him, so I'm surprised you'd have a problem giving him that even.

I also don't see Hardy as being the missing piece to put them over the top.

 

Nobody said he was. I don't understand why people look at it this way either. It's not as if there is always that one player who just tips the balances. It's a cumulative effort. Hardy himself isn't going to put them over the top, but the question is, is he worth the contract. I think most would say yes, and looking at his production over his career, 7-8 million figures to be a steal for him.

 

Sure they could sign Prince next year but they'd still have an aging,

declining Guerrero (not sure what his contract is like),

strikeout/mendoza line king Reynolds, as well as various other pieces

that IMO, are overrated (or in some cases, just haven't played up to

their potential). Adam Jones is a stud and Markakis has had a couple good early years but

has struggled this year. Wieters is still young but is struggling to

put up a .700 OPS in his 3rd year. Brian Roberts is aging and declining

(and is owed a lot) and Luke Scott hasn't done much either.

 

There are 25 guys on a team. There are always going to be lesser players. The question is does their core, with the addition of someone like Prince offer the potential to turn it around and contend.

As for Markakis, he has several years in where he's been a stud and he's back up to .292/.342 this year, so...early season struggles aren't that important to me.

[HiAndTight]

What's the organization's major flaw been for as long as any of us can remember? I submit it's developing pitching at rate that can even sustain the team at all.

 

Look at how many of our pitchers came through our own system, look at how much it cost to acquire our pitchers, look at how much it cost to acquire Sabathia.

I think Melvin has done a great job of the trades he has made. In all honesty I believe trades should be made often. Especially by teams like the Brewers. Trade 2 prospects for K-Rod, offer him arby, which he will decline. (If anyone disagree's he will decline ... He is 29 years old and has aspirations to pass Rivera & Hoffmann on the all times saves list. His agent is Scott Boras. He will be someone elses closer next year.) Then we get 2 draft picks. So the 2 guys we got rid of are basically back next June.

 

Look at our outfield. Braun is locked for an eternity. Morgan is a FA after the 2014 season. Hart is a free agent after the 2013 season. Any outfielder who is "ready" before 2014 is expendible. For the right guy, I make that trade every day of the week. Trade, trade, trade and trade again. We get a bizillion picks every year and I have confidence in our scouting and ability to raise our positional players. So we stink at drafting pitching. Whatever. Keep doing what your good at and trade positional picks for pitching. I am fine with it.

 

Take a look at the Rays. They had a huge opportunity the last few years to make a splash and didn't. They could have traded a Helickson lead package for Fielder. But they held tight and what did they get? Lost the World Series. I don't want to lose the World Series. I want to win it. Hind sight is always 20-20 but we should have traded Escobar when his value was at the highest, not lowest. Maybe signed Hardy to a 4 year deal in 2009. That contact would look especially good now as I am sure it would have been cheap.

 

I agree with you that we cannot have multi-million dollar players at every position, but you can have some. Look at the starting 8, Lucroy, Morgan, McGehee are all minimum salary players. Braun, Hart, Weeks have decent deals and Fielder gets a lot. Yuni sucks and should be collecting unemployment. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

All in all, I like the trades and I trust in Melvin. If he moves some outfielders, and a pitcher for Hardy. Fine with me. I trust he has done his homework.

Hind sight is always 20-20 but we should have traded Escobar when his

value was at the highest, not lowest. Maybe signed Hardy to a 4 year

deal in 2009. That contact would look especially good now as I am sure

it would have been cheap.

 

You're exactly right, hindsight is always 20-20, so I don't see the point of this.

 

Never mind that if you want to argue about what the height of Escobar's value has been, he's probably at it right now. So then we should have held onto him for another year?

 

 

Trading Escobar at the height of his value and then signing Hardy in 2009 at his lowest value is just a bit too much benefit of hindsight.

[Raw Biz]

HiAndTight wrote:

I think it's dumb because I don't think he's worth the money it will

cost to resign him (7-8 being on the cheaper end). Would I like to have

him now? Well yeah because he's better than Yuni. But would I like to

sign him to an extension for what he would want? No.

 

A defensive stud that puts up a .750-.800 OPS? What do you think a guy like that is going to get on the open market? I think 7-8 million is on the low end for him, so I'm surprised you'd have a problem giving him that even.

I also don't see Hardy as being the missing piece to put them over the top.

 

Nobody said he was. I don't understand why people look at it this way either. It's not as if there is always that one player who just tips the balances. It's a cumulative effort. Hardy himself isn't going to put them over the top, but the question is, is he worth the contract. I think most would say yes, and looking at his production over his career, 7-8 million figures to be a steal for him.

 

Sure they could sign Prince next year but they'd still have an aging,

declining Guerrero (not sure what his contract is like),

strikeout/mendoza line king Reynolds, as well as various other pieces

that IMO, are overrated (or in some cases, just haven't played up to

their potential). Adam Jones is a stud and Markakis has had a couple good early years but

has struggled this year. Wieters is still young but is struggling to

put up a .700 OPS in his 3rd year. Brian Roberts is aging and declining

(and is owed a lot) and Luke Scott hasn't done much either.

 

There are 25 guys on a team. There are always going to be lesser players. The question is does their core, with the addition of someone like Prince offer the potential to turn it around and contend.

As for Markakis, he has several years in where he's been a stud and he's back up to .292/.342 this year, so...early season struggles aren't that important to me.

If you read my post after I made that one, you would see that I changed my mind and said I probably would sign him for 7-8 mil (I also said that's the low end) if that's what it took because we have no one coming up. However, I wouldn't call him a defensive stud. He's above-average but I wouldn't say stud. The main reason I would be wary of giving him too much is because he has trouble staying healthy and I don't think he will maintain what he's doing this year.

You say he's a .750 - .800 OPS guy but he did that in 07 and 08 and so far this year in ~250 ABs. He was .659 in 09 and .714 last year (as well as .711 rookie year and .693 in injury-shortened 06). I believe he is closer to a .700 OPS guy who plays above average defense. I would definitely take him for this year and I would resign him to a reasonable contract (3 yr/21 mil territory). But I would not be comfortable giving him 10 mil/year, which he could realistically get.

[Invader3K]

Buster Olney saying that Baltimore and JJ Hardy making progress on a three year contract. Sounds like Hardy is becoming less and less of a realistic trade target at this point.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I would take Hardy on a 3/25 deal in a heartbeat. It really burns me that our biggest hole right now is the hole created by trading Hardy for garbage. Melvin has made some great moves, but this has to be considered his worst move as Brewers GM. I realize he was injured to start the year, but Hardy (through defense and his bat) would easily be a 5 win upgrade for us right now. Being 54-40, versus 49-45 would be enormous right now.

 

I'm seriously thinking the Brewers need to be sellers right now

[Invader3K]

I'm seriously thinking the Brewers need to be sellers right now

OK, this is just ridiculous. I know people are angry after losing two games to the Rockies in Colorado, but come on. We are a half game out of first place. I will still take our chances of winning the division over either the Cardinals or the Pirates. We have very good pitching that they simply don't.

[Raw Biz]

I would take Hardy on a 3/25 deal in a heartbeat. It really burns me that our biggest hole right now is the hole created by trading Hardy for garbage. Melvin has made some great moves, but this has to be considered his worst move as Brewers GM. I realize he was injured to start the year, but Hardy (through defense and his bat) would easily be a 5 win upgrade for us right now. Being 54-40, versus 49-45 would be enormous right now.

 

I'm seriously thinking the Brewers need to be sellers right now

Actually the hole was created by trading Escobar in the Greinke deal, which I would do again. Do people forget how bad Hardy was in 09? He wasn't any better last year either. This year he's finally playing well again but by my count, he's had about 3 good years and 3 bad years. He was also injured which is part of his problems.

And why do people consistently call Gomez garbage. Offense isn't the only thing that matters in baseball. Sure he's a pretty bad offensive player in terms of getting on base but he is easily a top 5 defensive CF. Plus, he has some power and when he does get on base, his speed can be deadly. I just don't understand how informed baseball fans (like most on here) can think Gomez is garbage when he is so valuable defensively. If he was always a #8 hitter (like he should have been), there would be a lot less haters.

[PilprinBuddha]

Forget JJ...we would end up overpaying for him. Jack Wilson might be an easier get.