Lawrie to big leagues

[nate82]

I did not really like Lawrie attitude when he was drafted and wanted to move from Catcher to another Position.

He wasn't going to be a catcher. Lots of players ask to be moved to another spot. That has nothing to do with his attitude only your perception of him.

[danzig6767]

I'll be very surprised if Lawrie doesn't hit & hit well at the big-league level. I think in two or three seasons Brewers fans are really, really going to miss Lawrie & Odorizzi.

Yea, i have a feeling that Lawrie is going to eventually hit like a Braun lite type of player. A consistently high batting average. Take a somewhat ok amount of walks, but not be a high walk guy, at least early on. Not as much home run power as Braun, but a pretty good amount of homers to go along with lots of gapper line drives resulting in high amounts of doubles/triples.

 

Hard to have any complaints about Marcum, but if his two years here don't contribute to any playoff berths, losing Lawrie will sting if the kid develops into the hitter i fear he might. That's why i can't cheer for him to do really well. I'm fine with wishing him to have a solid career, but i just can't wish for Lawrie to be really good because i'll end up being bummed that the Brewers traded him. Unless of course we do something special the next two years while Marcum is a big contributor.

[bullox]

I remember watching a video of Lawrie taking BP just after the Brewers drafted him, and just remember the sound of the crack of the bat. Incredible 'thwack'. No matter what kind of person he is off the field and in the clubhouse, I can really see him doing well at the major league level.

[CheezWizHed]

Yea, i have a feeling that Lawrie is going to eventually hit like a Braun lite type of player.

 

I would be very surprised if that were true. This year has been to much of a spike for me to believe its (entirely) real, especially playing the PCL. And I remember him hitting balls hard at A-ball (also the "crack" jumped out at me), I really, really doubt he can carry an above 300 average. 270-280 would be more expected.

 

High end, I see Weeks-like production with low-end around McGehee. Attitude and defensive-wise, he reminds me of Gary Sheffield.

[GB12]

RockCoCougars wrote:

I agree that we've all done stupid stuff, but were we dumb enough to post it on the World Wide Web for everyone to see? I was working under the assumption that Lawrie posted these pictures himself.

For those under the age of 25 there's a 90% chance the answer to that is yes.

[theavrock]

Call up on hold for a bit after he was placed on the 7 day DL

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/a...6&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

[Invader3K]

Lawrie has fractured left hand, out 3-4 weeks.

[jjfanec]

Lawrie has fractured left hand, out 3-4 weeks.

Horrible timing for Lawrie with the call-up seeming inevitable. The article says 2-3 weeks so he could still be up by mid July once he gets back.

[HiAndTight]

So far (obviously still very early), this trade looks like one both teams are still happy with. Marcum is surpassing expectations with his production this season, and Lawrie would likely now be a top 5-10 prospect in the game in any updated prospect rankings. Granted its June 1st, but the numbers at AAA are pretty filthy. Nice work to both GM's on the trade. Personally, I am a big picture fan, and I might take Lawrie over Marcum if given the choice. The next 3 2/3 seasons of pre-arby production by Lawrie could look very nice for the Blue Jays. I understand the Marcum trade went hand-in-hand with the Greinke, so it makes sense.

 

On a sidenote, how many GMs in baseball right now are better than Alex Anthopoulos?

My thoughts exactly. I still do not like Lawrie for Marcum straight up at all.

 

When you throw in Greinke, I like it much better. I just happen to think we've traded away a player who would have been one of the 4-5 best hitters in Brewers history when all is said and done, and possibly more. I also happen to think he's going to develop into a nice 3rd basemen.

 

 

As much as I'm loving this team right now, it's hard for me to get past what it'd be like to watch Jake Odorizzi leading our rotation in a year or two and Lawrie hitting 4th behind Braun putting up a .300/.385/.525 type line.

 

I'm sure I/we are in the minority there. Then again, Greinke's always been my favorite pitcher, so I'm not complaining about that one at all, and if this team keeps playing well....meh, I'll just shut up.

[jjfanec]

So far (obviously still very early), this trade looks like one both teams are still happy with. Marcum is surpassing expectations with his production this season, and Lawrie would likely now be a top 5-10 prospect in the game in any updated prospect rankings. Granted its June 1st, but the numbers at AAA are pretty filthy. Nice work to both GM's on the trade. Personally, I am a big picture fan, and I might take Lawrie over Marcum if given the choice. The next 3 2/3 seasons of pre-arby production by Lawrie could look very nice for the Blue Jays. I understand the Marcum trade went hand-in-hand with the Greinke, so it makes sense.

 

On a sidenote, how many GMs in baseball right now are better than Alex Anthopoulos?

My thoughts exactly. I still do not like Lawrie for Marcum straight up at all.

 

When you throw in Greinke, I like it much better. I just happen to think we've traded away a player who would have been one of the 4-5 best hitters in Brewers history when all is said and done, and possibly more. I also happen to think he's going to develop into a nice 3rd basemen.

 

 

As much as I'm loving this team right now, it's hard for me to get past what it'd be like to watch Jake Odorizzi leading our rotation in a year or two and Lawrie hitting 4th behind Braun putting up a .300/.385/.525 type line.

 

I'm sure I/we are in the minority there. Then again, Greinke's always been my favorite pitcher, so I'm not complaining about that one at all, and if this team keeps playing well....meh, I'll just shut up.

But you are talking like Lawrie and Odorizzi being All-stars is a given. MLB is littered with guys who were top prospects and never lived up to their billing. Think of all the top prospects who have struggled once getting to the bigs. Now both could pan out but right now getting two frontline pitchers for two years and either draft picks, trade for prospects or extensions. I loved Odorizzi and hated losing him.

[berniebrewer4life]

As much as I'm loving this team right now, it's hard for me to get past what it'd be like to watch Jake Odorizzi leading our rotation in a year or two and Lawrie hitting 4th behind Braun putting up a .300/.385/.525 type line.

People were saying the same thing about Will Inman when we traded him(and he put up better stats than jake did thru A ball). You can't assume guys who haven't made the jump yet to AA(the hardest one to make) will be on your major league roster within a year or two. Granted, i think Jake will be better than Will has been, but I'm not going to be day dreaming a bunch of what ifs until Jake is either flat out dominating in AAA(even then, probably not), or is successful on a Major League roster.

[TheCrew07]

As much as I'm loving this team right now, it's hard for me to get past what it'd be like to watch Jake Odorizzi leading our rotation in a year or two and Lawrie hitting 4th behind Braun putting up a .300/.385/.525 type line.

People were saying the same thing about Will Inman when we traded him(and he put up better stats than jake did thru A ball). You can't assume guys who haven't made the jump yet to AA(the hardest one to make) will be on your major league roster within a year or two. Granted, i think Jake will be better than Will has been, but I'm not going to be day dreaming a bunch of what ifs until Jake is either flat out dominating in AAA(even then, probably not), or is successful on a Major League roster.

It's unfair to drawn any comparisons between Odorizzi and Inman as they are 2 completely different pitchers. I'm guessing you've never seen Inman or Odorizzi pitch, because the difference is night and day when you watch them. Inman has a very distinctive pitching motion which helped him hide his fastball well, which is why he had so much success, it's difficult to explain. Jake has a legitimate 4 pitch mix, throws much harder than Will, and is a better athlete. Most of us are much better educated about pitching now, the love of Inman had everything to do with his statistical dominance and very little to do with what he actually threw as a pitcher, though we still entertain those debates between various posters regarding talent vs results from time to time. Furthermore, we traded Inman for a rental reliever, that's where most of the venom came from, a reliever whom wasn't going to make the difference to get the team into the post season pitching only 30 innings.

 

He won't dominate AAA long when he gets there, he'll be in the big leagues by the end of July that first year he starts out in AAA. He'll be in AA before this season is out and once he hits AA he's only 1 injury away from the big leagues. He's clearly ascending as a player.

 

I understand your basic premise that prospects aren't sure things, but in my opinion people have been awfully quick to dimiss the prospects we've traded in the various high profile deals because they want the Brewers to "win" the deal. Lawrie might be a tool, but fans of many other teams think Braun is a tool as well, I find their attitudes very similar in nature, they both have supreme confidence in their own abilities. I won't root against

Lawrie, I want him to do well, because I rooted for him when he was in our system, same as any other prospect. Well if I didn't like Cleveland as a franchise I wouldn't root for LaPorta, he's as fake as they come, but he's really the only high profile prospect we had that I just couldn't stand.

 

The players we gave up in the Greinke trade were technically prospects except for Escobar, but everyone of them excluding Odorizzi has MLB time now, they will be all MLB players and I'll continue to root for all of them as well. Jeffress and Odorizzi have a legitimate chance to be special, Cain will be a solid CF, and who knows what's going to happen with Escobar, but he sure has shored up his D this season.

 

Everyone knows I don't like either trade from a timing or talent standpoint, but it would be dumb of me to root against Marcum and Greinke when they pitch, I still want the Brewers to win. My problem isn't with any of the players, my problem has always been with the front office. I don't know why posters will turn these trades into either/or scenarios... If I like a guy, I'm going to root for him regardless of where he ends up... to be honest, I still root for Hardy.

[GAME05]

at this point i'm still able to go back and forth whether i like the two trades or not. Lawrie and Odorizzi have "special" written all over them, and that's hard to give up. unless they're punching teammates or pledging allegiance to Mussolini, i don't really care what their personalities are--that's what a good manager is there to control. being shocked that an underage Lawrie drinks malt liquor and has a cocky attitude is really holding them to a superhuman standard. i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of current players were actually jerks in the locker room already, despite how they appear to the media. i don't think we really understood how bad Quevedo and Alex Sanchez were on this team until they finally left.

 

would it be about right to guess that the Jeffress/Odorizzi/Lawrie combo makes six All-Star appearances between them by the time they hit free agency? maybe that's even ambitious. but then in Greinke and Marcum it sure looks like they could each be an All-Star in both of their next two years--that's four appearances. so we're talking four versus six. that's a decent bit of production to give up, but then there's such a short window for us Middle Class ballclubs to make the playoffs, that maybe that risk is worth it. or maybe i'm just convincing myself of that because it's what we have now. my fear if we didn't make the trade is that we'd look like the Jason Bay Pirates in four years, having one or two good, young players but with no support around them and fighting a losing battle. keeping the prospects but having a lot of money to spend in Free Agency hasn't shown to be a winning strategy.

 

in some respects, i like the trade based on how Free Agency has historically gone for us. it's near impossible to get the money and then convince a top-flight FA to come to Milwaukee. in some respects, i think some of the value in this trade is in the gamble that one of these two likes Milwaukee and decides to resign with us, even for a competitive salary. if Greinke weren't already a Brewer (his personal issues notwithstanding), i wouldn't hold any hope of him coming here. at whatever price it takes, for me, these two trades becoming a good value for us hinges entirely on our ability to resign one of Marcum and Greinke. if they both leave, then i'll regret the trade. if one stays, then i'll live with Jake or Matt becoming a top-flight player for another team.

[berniebrewer4life]

I understand your basic premise that prospects aren't sure things, but in my opinion people have been awfully quick to dimiss the prospects we've traded in the various high profile deals because they want the Brewers to "win" the deal.

As a rule i take stats guys put up below AA with a grain of salt(i'm sure we've all been burned by prospects playing well in A ball at age 20, then not making it to AAA till 25 or so). I also know Jake has great stuff, but guys with great stuff have failed to be able to make the jump before, and will fail to make the jump again. I'd be saying this regardless of if he was still in the organization. I guess i don't see the point in getting hyped up about guys in the low levels, as we've seen SOOOO many guys fail(I'm looking at YOU Brad Nelsonhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif).

 

And you are right, a lot of guys want the Brewers to win every trade. I think it's perfectly fine for both teams to do well in a deal.

[brewmann04]

sorry but i rather have Proven Pitchers who are relative young like Marcum and Grienke instead of youngsters who might have Major league Potential. It not like the Brewers have good luck with their minor league arms and it also takes players to get quality players.

[Nottso]

sorry but i rather have Proven Pitchers who are relative young like Marcum and Grienke instead of youngsters who might have Major league Potential. It not like the Brewers have good luck with their minor league arms and it also takes players to get quality players.

I agree. Especially since we had such a glaring need for pitchers. To get 2 of this caliber is just too good to pass up. This team as it now sits is dangerous. If/when we start getting production from 3B/SS it will be scary-dangerous.

[Flood Pants]

I'm confused by the talk regarding Lawrie's attitude. Where does this perception come from? I don't recall anybody saying anything about his attitude until that one stupid picture of him surfaced. We need a lot more evidence than that to make such broad claims.

[sveumrules]

He's had the cocky/intense label applied to him pretty much since he's been in the organization. I seem to recall him missing some games in A ball where he wasn't hurt and the team didn't give a reason why and everyone pretty much assumed it was attitude related.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I'm confused by the talk regarding Lawrie's attitude. Where does this perception come from? I don't recall anybody saying anything about his attitude until that one stupid picture of him surfaced. We need a lot more evidence than that to make such broad claims.

There was plenty of talk during his minor league stint about his attitude well before the facebook picture. I'm sure some of the Timber Rattlers insiders could chime in, but I heard numerous stories that he was not well liked by many teammates and coaches. Maybe he was just young and stupid and will grow out of it, but he was kind of a tool while with the Brewers organization. A talented tool, but a tool.

[TheCrew07]

sorry but i rather have Proven Pitchers who are relative young like Marcum and Grienke instead of youngsters who might have Major league Potential. It not like the Brewers have good luck with their minor league arms and it also takes players to get quality players.

That's fine but you can't build a MLB organization 2 years at a time, there are not enough prospects, no team drafts that well. The Brewers gave up 8 legitimate prospects for a little under 5 years of Sabathia, Greinke, and Marcum. That's not good value regardless of the results on the field, it's not even the equivilent of 1 young pitcher like Yo through his arbtritarion years in service time, not to mention we paid in both dollars and talent to acquire the players.

 

Neither pitcher is young, in fact Greinke is 27 and this is his 8th MLB season, he should be smack in the middle of his peak production years. Marcum will be 30 next season, which is on the downside production wise and upswing injury risk wise. The only way Greinke and Marcum are "young" is if you compare them to the pitchers Melvin acquired before them.

 

I will agree that a great many posters around this site have always been in the win at all costs camp, I remember people wanting to trade Fielder, Braun, and Gallardo for proven MLB players when they were prospects as well. If you like both trades... I get it, but don't try to sell the trades on the misguided notion that we gave up young talent for young talent, that wasn't the case and hasn't been case or I wouldn't have been so critical of Melvin every time.

 

I've been wanting to trade for young talent since 2006-2007, Gomez is as close as we've gotten. I'd do a WAR assessment as I usually do in these debates, but they generally get skipped over or ignored so it's not worth the time.

 

I stand by my original premise... I hope Lawrie and all of the prospects we traded have MLB success. I should know better than to continaully rage against the machine of "prospects haven't proven anything" as it's such an empty and baseless argument but for some reason I still let it piss me off every time I read it. My bad.

 

Good luck Brett, I hope you have a wonderful career becoming the poster boy for Canadian baseball, a Canadian national playing for a Canadian team and having great success.

[RockCoCougars]

"The Brewers gave up 8 legitimate prospects for a little under 5 years of Sabathia, Greinke, and Marcum"

 

Giving up 8 prospects for three legit #1/#2 starters doesn't seem like an issue to me at all. The only issue that I can see would be the Sabathia trade was a rental, but he carried the team to the playoffs, so it's tough to dispute that one. Frankly of the three guys in the majors (LaPorta, Brantley and Escobar), the jury is still out on whether they will be above average players. Lawrie has been tearing up the minors this season, but it's still probably a coin-flip whether he will be an impact player in the majors. Cain and Jeffress are even bigger question marks. Odorizzi looks like a nice prospect, but he has a loooong way to go, and the odds are against him being a #1/#2 in the majors as Grienke is right now. Who is the 8th prospect?

 

At any rate, I'm happier trading guys for proven talents and being in first place as opposed to 10 years ago watching a AAAA team and reading about how help is on the way. If it's taught me anything, 30-some years of Brewer fandom has taught me that generally prospects are overrated.

[Oxy]

"The Brewers gave up 8 legitimate prospects for a little under 5 years of Sabathia, Greinke, and Marcum"

 

Giving up 8 prospects for three legit #1/#2 starters doesn't seem like an issue to me at all. The only issue that I can see would be the Sabathia trade was a rental, but he carried the team to the playoffs, so it's tough to dispute that one. Frankly of the three guys in the majors (LaPorta, Brantley and Escobar), the jury is still out on whether they will be above average players. Lawrie has been tearing up the minors this season, but it's still probably a coin-flip whether he will be an impact player in the majors. Cain and Jeffress are even bigger question marks. Odorizzi looks like a nice prospect, but he has a loooong way to go, and the odds are against him being a #1/#2 in the majors as Grienke is right now. Who is the 8th prospect?

 

At any rate, I'm happier trading guys for proven talents and being in first place as opposed to 10 years ago watching a AAAA team and reading about how help is on the way. If it's taught me anything, 30-some years of Brewer fandom has taught me that generally prospects are overrated.

Ironically, the prospects that Melvin has traded away in his tenure who turned out to be the best MLB players (recent trades pending) have netted us Tony Graffanino, Kevin Mench, and 1.5 years of a decent closer. I would bet that De La Rosa and Cruz will end up having far more valuable as players then the other 8 guys combined. We'll see though. Odorizzi and Lawrie are the only guys who have a decent shot at being better than average players, and they certianly aren't guarantees. The other 6 guys are very likely to be the kind of guys who are available every off-season. Basically I'd say that the Crew gave up 3 legitimate prospects (LaPorta looked legit at one time; he might put it together to have a good year or two, but that isn't really that valuable at 1B/DH) and 5 filler guys.

 

Meanwhile, one trade got us to the playoffs, the other two have put us in a very good position to be in the playoffs this year and the next. After that, we'll be relying on our drafts from 2009-2011 to have developed. Also, I'm not sure that "That's not good value regardless of the results on the field" really makes sense. I'd say that if we make the playoffs the next two years, the increased revenue and fan fervor for the years to come would more than make up for whatever value we lost by giving up the prospects. A WS championship would certainly justify it as well. It might be riskier in your estimation since these are no guarantees, but your philosophy is no guarantee either.

[JJHardy7]

I should know better than to continaully rage against the machine of "prospects haven't proven anything" as it's such an empty and baseless argument but for some reason I still let it piss me off every time I read it. My bad.

I like the minors a lot as well. I'll admit though that these guys don't always pan out. I don't think it makes sense to keep trading prospects like we have. I agree with you that you can't keep doing this. Look at our farm system now.

I think the thing that I look at though is not every prospect pans out. I hope every guy we've given up becomes a stud because I've followed them when they were in our organization. I also know though that chances are the entire group won't pan out. That's not the way to view it as 'we win' a trade. I think the key is when you make these trades you need to know what you are giving up. If Lawrie becomes Braun at 3B, that may not look so good.

DM really hasn't traded too many top tier prospects that went on to have success. I'm not saying he's given up garbage, but so far they've given up the right players. The two deals this off-season though are the most risky in my opinion based on what we gave up. If the Brewers make the playoffs this year and next year (and move on in the playoffs), I can live with that. If we miss the playoffs the next two years, that will hurt.