Morgan for Dykstra, Melvin's best trade ever?

[JohnBriggs12]

Granted Morgan has just 44 AB's but does anyone remember a more one sided dead than Cutter Dykstra (.492 OPS in A ball) for Nyjer Morgan?

 

With that deal Melvin managed to turn a key position from one of relative weakness to one of relative strength with a two headed speed platoon of Gomez and Morgan. At times I've been critical of Melvin but this deal might be worth a couple more years on his contract.

[greeg35]

I like the idea of drafting "name" players and capitalizing on the added value (false value--not talking about Fielder) that it adds before they are exposed. We should have done that with Tony Gwynn Jr too. I think that's what happened here.

[berniebrewer4life]

We traded a guy who hit .233(with an 8.75m salary) for an 18 game winner. I think that's up for consideration. I wouldn't call the dykstra/morgan best trade he's ever made, but it's probably one of the more lopsided trades.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I don't think I'd say the Sexson trade was the best trade ever either, but it did turn out pretty well for us. I'd always go with the CC trade, no matter what Melvin does.

[Warning Track Power]

I don't think I'd say the Sexson trade was the best trade ever either, but it did turn out pretty well for us. I'd always go with the CC trade, no matter what Melvin does.

Hmm...I think this one depends on the perspective. I for one agree the CC trade was a great deal and a necessary deal to get us to the 2008 playoffs and I would have made it every time too. However, I can also see the flip side of the argument saying one playoff season wasn't worth the players we gave up. How good would Brantley look in CF surrounded by Braun and Hart? Same for LaPorta. Having Gamel @ 3B and LaPorta @ 1B next season would look pretty darn good combined with Weeks and Lucroy. In that scenario, JJ or Alcides would likely still be at SS. Talk about an everyday lineup. Wow.

 

For that reason, I can't say this would hands down be the best trade ever for Melvin. The premise, as I see it, is the greatest gap between what the Brewers received what they traded. If that is the premise, I think Nyjer for Cutter is pretty hard to beat on June 1, 2011.

[nate82]

The trade for Villanueva was pretty good also.

Brantley would look horrible in CF defensively I would rather take Gomez's bad offense and good defense over Brantley's bad defense and good offense. Brantley is not a CF.

[joepepsi]

Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino for Carlos Lee was an excellent trade. The dumping of Lee a year and half later didn't work out so well, thanks to Nelson Cruz blossoming into a quality slugger.

[dadofandrew]

I never understood the bad rap Morgan got, he plays hard and has a bit of showmanship in him. DC has been struggling to find a CF since the day they dealt him.

 

EDIT: And if we're going to talk trades, Doug won the wildcard by getting CC. Picking up Felipe Lopez for a role player prospect was superb as well. I still hate not having Laporta and Brantley, but there's no doubt that was necessary to add the 2-4 wins needed to make the playoffs.

[TooLiveBrew]

I still hate not having Laporta and Brantley

 

They'd be bench players on this team

[logan82]

I still hate not having Laporta and Brantley

 

They'd be bench players on this team

Considering our bench, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

[cwolf2012]

"They'd be bench players on this team"

 

But they're starters on the #1 team in the AL!

[jjfanec]

I am not sure if I see Brantley helping this team much at all right now. His .747 OPS and only being able to adequately play the corners is not really appealing. Morgan and even Gomez seem like better options in CF. Braun never really rests so RF could have used Brantley some since Kotsay isnt good. But with Hart back LaPorta would be a nice bench back but Brantley would probably be in AAA. With Corner OF'ers being a place we are set on this team for a little while and being one of the easiest places to get guys I dont think either guy is a big loss. Although next year once Prince leaves maybe LaPorta will be missed because Gamel and LaPorta could take RF/1B and we could have saved money not extending hart

[TheCrew07]

I don't want to beat the same drum over and over, but I think historical perspective will cool people's enthusiasm for Melvin, especially since the team has struggled to replace talent since Z went to Seattle. We overpaid for Marcum and Greinke, got marginal value at best for Lee and Overbay, the trades for Lopez and Linebrink weren't moves that were going to put the team over the top and in the end was just spending prospects to spend prospects. Melvin traded Hardy at his lowest possible value, and got equally poor value in return. He traded Gross for seemingly the only prospect from the Rays' system to never amount to anything in Butler.

 

I think the perceived success of the Sabathia trade s entirely skewed by personal opinions of a single playoff appearance, the value of which will vary by each individual and is extremely difficult to quantify. I wonder how people would feel about that trade if the Mets hadn't given us the WC and we missed the playoffs after giving all that talent away. Was going 1 and done in the playoffs really that important to the franchise given the 2 years that followed?

 

At the very least acquiring Sabathia (aided of course by getting nothing for Sheets) and signing worthless FA pitchers to replace him kept the organization's lack of impact pitching domino effect rolling, we've still to acquire legitimate pitching that we control for 3 or more years, even after dumping the 4 best prospects in the system and Escobar this off season, and we certainly haven't bought any wins pitching wise at a discounted rate.

 

I realize I was biased against Dykstra, X and I had many interesting debates about him between the draft and minor league forums, and I also realize that I've crapped on every single one of the trades I mentioned in the first paragraph repeatedly. I admit that outside of shipping Sexson when he first got here and acquiring Lee and Villy, I haven't liked a single trade that Melvin has made. All that being said the trade for Morgan was extremely economical and was excellent talent management all the way around.

 

So I say kudos to Melvin for finally getting one right... as for extending his contract based on any trade he has made... never. I won't miss him or Nichols at all when they are gone and in fact it won't happen soon enough for me. He's had plenty of time to get it right, to build a solid organization from the ground up, now we're left hoping we stay healthy enough to make a run at the playoffs this year and next because the cupboards are absolutely barren below the MLB team. He's built a house of cards and I hope that it was enough for one last run towards a WS, but I fear the worst.

[dlk9s]

...and here we go again.

[COBrewerfan]

I don't want to beat the same drum over and over, but I think historical perspective will cool people's enthusiasm for Melvin, especially since the team has struggled to replace talent since Z went to Seattle. We overpaid for Marcum and Greinke, got marginal value at best for Lee and Overbay, the trades for Lopez and Linebrink weren't moves that were going to put the team over the top and in the end was just spending prospects to spend prospects. Melvin traded Hardy at his lowest possible value, and got equally poor value in return. He traded Gross for seemingly the only prospect from the Rays' system to never amount to anything in Butler.

We overpaid for Marcum? We gave up one prospect for a pitcher that is a 1 or 2 on any staff in the league. So no idea how we overpaid for him. Greinke you can debate but again, getting a top of the rotation guy for a light hitting SS, a prospect CF, and a couple more prospects is not a bad deal. Especially at this point. We will see what comes of Odorizzi but other than that I think we would trade for Greinke with those pieces whenever possible. Getting front of the line starters is not easy to do and to get two in one offseason is amazing.

[monty57]

I am not sure if I see Brantley helping this team much at all right now. His .747 OPS and only being able to adequately play the corners is not really appealing. Morgan and even Gomez seem like better options in CF. Braun never really rests so RF could have used Brantley some since Kotsay isnt good. But with Hart back LaPorta would be a nice bench back but Brantley would probably be in AAA. With Corner OF'ers being a place we are set on this team for a little while and being one of the easiest places to get guys I dont think either guy is a big loss. Although next year once Prince leaves maybe LaPorta will be missed because Gamel and LaPorta could take RF/1B and we could have saved money not extending hart

We can't look at things in a vaccuum. If the CC trade was never made, we would have had LaPorta & Brantley in the system, which would have changed all subsequent moves. We may not have traded for Gomez if we saw Brantley as a legitimate CF prospect, or we may not have extended Hart if we saw Brantley as a corner OF. We would have had much more reason last season to trade Hart & Fielder for pitching, as we would have had legitimate prospects knocking on the door at AAA. Had we done that, we probably wouldn't have traded for Greinke and Marcum this offseason (maybe Marcum, but almost adduredly not Greinke). We may not have as good a team this season with Brantley in RF, LaPorta at 1B and whatever players we received for Prince & Corey, but we would certainly have a better minor league system for the future.

[Tedaldtada]

TC07, we received 4 years (and maybe more) of impact pitchers in their prime for 5 prospects. What more do you want bro? #unrealisticexpectations

 

Here are some things you need to realize about those prospects:

 

Odorizzi was 20 in Low-A in a pitchers league. That is no sure thing. Still isn't, even with his success in A+ this year. It's not like his stuff is that overpowering. There are probably 30 guys in this draft alone with better pure stuff.

Escobar cannot hit MLB pitching. Period.

Cain really isn't better than Plush is now and his ceiling isn't much more anyways. Gomez plays better D, albeit not by much from what we saw last year.

Jeffress cannot throw strikes and profiles as a back end bullpen guy.

Lawrie hated the organization. It is obvious. He has never been happier than when he found out about the trade. He will hit, but he can't field at an impact position, so his value will never be maximized.

 

We got 2 legit NL aces! And Greinke is an ace in any league.

 

I get it. You want Clayton Kershaw and David Price. Or Billingsley and Nolasco. Or Wade Davis (yuck, but you have advocated many times) and Trevor Cahill. Heck, I can remember you beating the Alex Cobb/Alex Colome drum. Talk about mid-rotation upside. I can even remember the Prince to Baltimore discussions where you wanted us to get Chris Tillman (in fairness, you also brought up names like Arrieta, Matusz and Britton but I can confidently say none of those guys can touch what Greinke is capable of). 20/20 hindsight can go both ways, bro.

 

Teams do not trade impact, MLB ready pitching prospects in deals for other minor league players. MLB-ready impact starting pitchers rarely get traded for MLB players even. They are valued like QB's in the NFL. If you have a good-to-great one, you ride him until proven different. Hellickson and Matusz are not on the block now. Neither were Brett Anderson nor Madison Baumgarner last year.

 

You make Melvin's job sound so easy. Who the heck are you? Were you in the room during trade negotiations? Sometimes people act like they know every in-and-out of how MLB trade talks work. Puh-leeze.

[jjfanec]

I am not sure if I see Brantley helping this team much at all right now. His .747 OPS and only being able to adequately play the corners is not really appealing. Morgan and even Gomez seem like better options in CF. Braun never really rests so RF could have used Brantley some since Kotsay isnt good. But with Hart back LaPorta would be a nice bench back but Brantley would probably be in AAA. With Corner OF'ers being a place we are set on this team for a little while and being one of the easiest places to get guys I dont think either guy is a big loss. Although next year once Prince leaves maybe LaPorta will be missed because Gamel and LaPorta could take RF/1B and we could have saved money not extending hart

We can't look at things in a vaccuum. If the CC trade was never made, we would have had LaPorta & Brantley in the system, which would have changed all subsequent moves. We may not have traded for Gomez if we saw Brantley as a legitimate CF prospect, or we may not have extended Hart if we saw Brantley as a corner OF. We would have had much more reason last season to trade Hart & Fielder for pitching, as we would have had legitimate prospects knocking on the door at AAA. Had we done that, we probably wouldn't have traded for Greinke and Marcum this offseason (maybe Marcum, but almost adduredly not Greinke). We may not have as good a team this season with Brantley in RF, LaPorta at 1B and whatever players we received for Prince & Corey, but we would certainly have a better minor league system for the future.

Brantley is not and never was a CF prospect. He can play there if he has to but he is not a starting CF. Fielder was rumored at the deadline last year and there were no top of line pitchers rumored to be coming to Milwaukee for him. Hart was not netting more than a number 3/4 guy at best. If we trade Hart and Fielder for young pitching we would have pushed back 2 to 3 years our chances at competing. Right now we have one of the best top 3's in the NL for two years.

 

I dont know how anyone can say we overpaid for Marcum or Greinke. Lawrie could be very good but Marcum has been terrific. Odorizzi is the only guy in the Greinke deal (maybe Cain) that I miss. Escobar cannot hit. Seriously, I would rather have Yo batting every day than him. Jeffress still walks almost a guy an inning. Cain might be solid player but he is definitely not a lock. Odorizzi is hard to lose but seriously we gave up a couple below average MLB players, a guy who could be solid, and very good pitching prospect who is still in A ball. Not sure how we overpaid for either.

[Oxy]

Hey Crew07, I'm just curious here, but what level of success will be Brewers need to achieve in this year and the next in order to redeem Melvin's decisions for you? Would two playoff appearances change your opinion at all or would you just say it was lucky and that the decisions were still stupid? A WS championship? If either of those occurred, would you even enjoy them or would you be too worried about the lack of prospects in the farm system to be able to enjoy success at the MLB level?

[TooLiveBrew]

Hey Crew07, I'm just curious here, but what level of success will be Brewers need to achieve in this year and the next in order to redeem Melvin's decisions for you?

 

He's not results-oriented as much as he is approach-oriented. Even if the Brewers were to win the W.S. this season (while he'd enjoy it), he still wouldn't agree with the way Melvin builds an organization. That's not a knock on TC07, just me being very familiar with his preference of strategy... because, as dlk9s said... "...and here we go again." http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[adambr2]

I'm not a Melvin fan either, I think while some of his moves have been excellent (and I do give him a lot of credit for landing Greinke and Marcum this offseason for what he did), there's been some puzzling moves mixed in as well.

 

I think if you're going to gut a very solid farm system, as Melvin has systematically done the last 3-4 years, you had better put a winner on the field, so to say there's a lot of pressure this year would be an understatement.

 

I still feel the Braun extension was a completely unnecessary risk. The best case scenario is that we get Braun from 2016 to 2020 for a few million per year under market value. The worst case scenario is that Braun starts to fall off as he approaches his mid-30's or even suffers chronic injuries and the Brewers payroll is stuck with an albatross of a contract for years.

[Ennder]

especially since the team has struggled to replace talent since Z went to Seattle

 

If you want to blame anyone for the current state of the roster a huge portion of that blame goes to Z being unable to draft pitching, he still gets way too much credit for drafting the almost can't miss hitters he did and doesn't seem to get any of the blame for almost completely missing out all of his pitching drafts. The majority of the moves I've disliked by Melvin are in direct correlation from the complete lack of major league quality pitching drafted under Jack Z.

 

Now I don't say this just to harp on Jack Z, rebuilding a franchise takes 10-15 years and we are still in rebuilding mode. What we do with this wave of talent and how we draft over the next few years is still a huge part of it. When you have to rebuild an entire major league team it takes time and to do it in a way that leaves you with a minor league system still takes every more. The Rays took 10+ years to do and look where they are, we rushed all of our prospects too much and we are most likely hitting a 2-3 year window where we have to pay for that in the near future.

[endaround]

And the only pitcher the Brewers did hit on, Gallardo, was drafted against Jack's wishes.

[monty57]

I am not sure if I see Brantley helping this team much at all right now. His .747 OPS and only being able to adequately play the corners is not really appealing. Morgan and even Gomez seem like better options in CF. Braun never really rests so RF could have used Brantley some since Kotsay isnt good. But with Hart back LaPorta would be a nice bench back but Brantley would probably be in AAA. With Corner OF'ers being a place we are set on this team for a little while and being one of the easiest places to get guys I dont think either guy is a big loss. Although next year once Prince leaves maybe LaPorta will be missed because Gamel and LaPorta could take RF/1B and we could have saved money not extending hart

We can't look at things in a vaccuum. If the CC trade was never made, we would have had LaPorta & Brantley in the system, which would have changed all subsequent moves. We may not have traded for Gomez if we saw Brantley as a legitimate CF prospect, or we may not have extended Hart if we saw Brantley as a corner OF. We would have had much more reason last season to trade Hart & Fielder for pitching, as we would have had legitimate prospects knocking on the door at AAA. Had we done that, we probably wouldn't have traded for Greinke and Marcum this offseason (maybe Marcum, but almost adduredly not Greinke). We may not have as good a team this season with Brantley in RF, LaPorta at 1B and whatever players we received for Prince & Corey, but we would certainly have a better minor league system for the future.

Brantley is not and never was a CF prospect. He can play there if he has to but he is not a starting CF. Fielder was rumored at the deadline last year and there were no top of line pitchers rumored to be coming to Milwaukee for him. Hart was not netting more than a number 3/4 guy at best. If we trade Hart and Fielder for young pitching we would have pushed back 2 to 3 years our chances at competing. Right now we have one of the best top 3's in the NL for two years.

 

I dont know how anyone can say we overpaid for Marcum or Greinke. Lawrie could be very good but Marcum has been terrific. Odorizzi is the only guy in the Greinke deal (maybe Cain) that I miss. Escobar cannot hit. Seriously, I would rather have Yo batting every day than him. Jeffress still walks almost a guy an inning. Cain might be solid player but he is definitely not a lock. Odorizzi is hard to lose but seriously we gave up a couple below average MLB players, a guy who could be solid, and very good pitching prospect who is still in A ball. Not sure how we overpaid for either.

 

Oh, I really liked the Greinke and Marcum moves. I liked the CC deal as well. I was just saying that if the CC deal had not been done, all of the subsequent moves would have been different... we have no idea what moves may or may not have been made.

 

Also, I didn't mean to single you out, as I was really responding to several posters. Your post just happened to be the one I quoted.

[bucksman4]

I'd be feeling a heck of a lot better about the Greinke trade if Odorizzi didnt have to be included. I think if he wasnt included, KC never would have traded with Milwaukee.

 

Having said that, if you can acquire 2 proven, top of the rotation starters (Greinke and Marcum) for unproven prospects, you do it every time without thinking twice. We have witnessed far too many seasons of pitching devoid teams that can rake. Pitching wins games and this off season Melvin finally proved that he understands that.