Craig Counsell running out of gas?

[MVP2110]

Im so sick of watching Counsell slowly walk up to the plate with that look like he doesnt even want to be in the majors. He needs to go. He doesnt put any good swings on the ball and pretty much just looks lifeless, like he is just going through the motions. It's getting old quick

[BillyRed]

That last AB was brutal. He didn't look like he wanted to face Coco.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Im so sick of watching Counsell slowly walk up to the plate with that look like he doesnt even want to be in the majors. He needs to go. He doesnt put any good swings on the ball and pretty much just looks lifeless, like he is just going through the motions. It's getting old quick

Seriously? Now we're going to start rating the grumpy rooster's walk up body language? He might be done physically, but there is no way he has quit.

[RockCoCougars]

The last bat tonight is a perfect example of Counsell trying to get a walk. Are there any websites that show the percentage of pitches that a hitter takes a strike (assuming Fangraphs)? I would bet that Counsell's rate is quite high.

[DHonks]

I would speculate that CoCo throws few strikes. It seemed that with the Brewers he almost never threw his slider for a strike

[adambr2]

I'm really annoyed with Melvin and Roenicke with the way this bench was constructed and specifically, not pursuing a guy like Russell Branyan.

 

Some teams have a power bat on the bench that at least gives you a chance with 2 out and nobody on in a 1 run 9th inning game. We send up Craig Counsell, with no legitimate shot of doing anything but getting a slap single or walk to turn it over to the next guy. I would rather have Boggs, at least he'd give us a shot.

 

This bench sucks. Counsell is a professional and a good guy, but yes he's on his last legs and shouldn't be a part of this bench next year. His veteran "grittiness" (and complete lack of SS depth) are the only things that are going to keep him on the roster all year.

[rluzinski]

Counsell's OBP: .318

Gomez' OBP: .280

 

Why do opponents keep walking Craig Counsell?

Why does the #9 hitter on the little league team walk so much? He doesn't swing much, and pitchers can't throw strikes when he's up to bat. I will argue until the day that I die that unless you are talking about an elite hitter hitting in front of a non elite hitter (Prince for example), walks are mostly a product of the pitcher.

On one hand, you suggest Counsell walks more because he swings less. On the other, you say that walks are mostly a product of the pitcher. How is that not a contradiction? Counsell has always walked a lot:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=52&position=2B/3B/SS&page=3&type=full

Betancourt has never walked a lot:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=8585&position=SS&page=3&type=full

It's obvious that the batter plays a HUGE role in his own walk rate, so you can't be suggesting otherwise.

Are you saying that if a batter never swung, he would get as many walks as a guy like Counsell has averaged in a career? That a pitcher can only throw 3 strikes in 6 pitches, 90% of the time and that rate is largely independent of the batter's skill level?

Either way, I would love to see some evidence for the position you are willing to argue foruntil you die. And please, no more little league analogies. Might as well compare MLB to slow pitch soft ball.

 

[dlk9s]

Counsell's OBP: .318

Gomez' OBP: .280

 

Why do opponents keep walking Craig Counsell?

Because he has a good eye for balls and strikes. Secondarily, he knows he's not about to hit one 450, so he doesn't get over anxious and try to do too much with crap pitches.

 

Occam's Razor, everyone. There's no crazy, complicated reason why CC has always had a good BB%. He has a good eye and doesn't usually swing at junk.

[RockCoCougars]

On one hand, you suggest Counsell walks more because he swings less. On the other, you say that walks are mostly a product of the pitcher. How is that not a contradiction? Counsell has always walked a lot:

 

Not a contradiction at all. Guys who swing less will walk more when a pitcher is struggling with control. Do you think that Counsell would maintain his walk rates if he was batting against guys like Maddux and Eckersley in their primes? Even at the major league level, generally, pitchers cannot throw strikes at will. You or I could draw walks without ever taking the bat off our shoulders if the pitcher was unable to throw 3 out of 6 pitches as strikes. I think that Counsell's at bat last night demonstrated this perfectly. Cordero was throwing the splitter out of the zone to the first two hitters and they were biting. In my view, Counsell was taking all the way in hopes of the same thing occurring allowing him to draw a walk. From looking at fangraphs, Counsell draws walks for two reasons: First, his overall 'swing percentage' is about 20% below league average; Second, his rate of swinging and missing is less than half that of league average- this is a function of good plate discipline, yes, but all it really tells me is that he's good at fouling pitches off- we all know from watching him that he's not hitting balls hard this year.

[zurch1818]

The last bat tonight is a perfect example of Counsell trying to get a walk. Are there any websites that show the percentage of pitches that a hitter takes a strike (assuming Fangraphs)? I would bet that Counsell's rate is quite high.

Plate Discipline

 

I believe you are looking for the Z-Swing% under plate discipline. Counsell is at 62.2% while league average is 64.7%. I'm no stat head...but I know that this probably isn't that significant. I do see his zone swing percentage dropping each year though since pitchfx stats were accumulated.

 

Edit: Links not working.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm looking for stats on the rate of times a batter strikes out looking. My theory would be that guys with lower slugging pct. (lets say under .425) who have above average walk rates would also have higher than average rates of striking out looking. Is 90% a statistical average for a MLB pitcher to throw 3 out of 6 strikes. If that's the case, all players would have a 10% walk rate without even taking the bat off their shoulders. Counsell's is about 13% this year- I'll give him the bump for weakly fouling pitches off, requiring the pitcher to throw an additional strike.

[JJHardy7]

Not a contradiction at all. Guys who swing less will walk more when a pitcher is struggling with control.

 

So a pitcher facing Counsell generally has control issues?

 

I think Counsell's OBP has a ton to do with his eye for the strike zone and him fouling off pitches. I don't have the stats, but I'd guess he doesn't swing and miss all that often. He also will take pitches. If it was this easy, why not send Gomez up every time and tell him never to swing the bat.

 

Counsell is not terrible. Again, it's nice we can worry about our bench so much. It means we are winning!

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

how dare him get a walk a hit and score the winning run.tonight ....... i thought he was out of gas ?

[danzig6767]

Counsell's OBP: .318

Gomez' OBP: .280

 

Why do opponents keep walking Craig Counsell?

Why does the #9 hitter on the little league team walk so much? He doesn't swing much, and pitchers can't throw strikes when he's up to bat. I will argue until the day that I die that unless you are talking about an elite hitter hitting in front of a non elite hitter (Prince for example), walks are mostly a product of the pitcher.

You can't be serious

 

Anyone who watches baseball long enough should be able to clearly see that there can be vast differences between hitters in their levels of plate discipline, thus this has a dramatic impact in why some hitters walk more than others, sometimes walking significantly more. Hell, one only needs to compare Betancourt and Counsell. Yuni swings at everything while Counsell rarely swings at a pitch outside of the strike zone.

 

Yea, Counsell will also look at his share of pitches that end up being called strikes, but the by far biggest reason that Counsell has always walked at a high rate considering that he's never had power is that unlike many players in baseball, Craig not only has a good eye at the plate, he just won't swing at pitches out of the strike zone. That 1-1 fastball or slider two inches off the plate Counsell refuses to swing at to go 2-1, while less disciplined hitters will swing at it to go 1-2 or make an out.

 

Plate discipline is a skill just like other aspects of the game are. Guys who have good plate discipline generally have had good plate discipline for a long time, through the minors and then through the big leagues, while free swinging hackers tend to also have been that way their whole time playing baseball, that's why the walk less. Pitchers have nothing to do with it over large sample sizes.

[JoeHova]

how dare him get a walk a hit and score the winning run.tonight ....... i thought he was out of gas ?

That was pretty nice, as was his steal. I'm not saying Craig is done but I think it's important to note that by the time a guy reaches a top level professional sports league (whether it's MLB, the NBA, the NFL, or whatever), he's going to be damn good at that sport, even if he is terrible compared to other people in that league. Thus, literally every single guy in one of those leagues is capable of a nice play from time to time.

[RockCoCougars]

Counsell's OBP: .318

Gomez' OBP: .280

 

Why do opponents keep walking Craig Counsell?

Why does the #9 hitter on the little league team walk so much? He doesn't swing much, and pitchers can't throw strikes when he's up to bat. I will argue until the day that I die that unless you are talking about an elite hitter hitting in front of a non elite hitter (Prince for example), walks are mostly a product of the pitcher.

You can't be serious

 

Anyone who watches baseball long enough should be able to clearly see that there can be vast differences between hitters in their levels of plate discipline, thus this has a dramatic impact in why some hitters walk more than others, sometimes walking significantly more. Hell, one only needs to compare Betancourt and Counsell. Yuni swings at everything while Counsell rarely swings at a pitch outside of the strike zone.

 

Yea, Counsell will also look at his share of pitches that end up being called strikes, but the by far biggest reason that Counsell has always walked at a high rate considering that he's never had power is that unlike many players in baseball, Craig not only has a good eye at the plate, he just won't swing at pitches out of the strike zone. That 1-1 fastball or slider two inches off the plate Counsell refuses to swing at to go 2-1, while less disciplined hitters will swing at it to go 1-2 or make an out.

 

Plate discipline is a skill just like other aspects of the game are. Guys who have good plate discipline generally have had good plate discipline for a long time, through the minors and then through the big leagues, while free swinging hackers tend to also have been that way their whole time playing baseball, that's why the walk less. Pitchers have nothing to do with it over large sample sizes.

I'm completely serious. Obviously, the hitter plays a role by not swinging much, but hitters like Counsell would never walk if the pitchers could throw strikes at will. Back in my amateur coaching days, if my team was down in the final inning, no one was swinging until they got a strike called. Did more guys walk? Yes. Was it a product of the hitter? Not really, it was mostly the pitcher's inability to throw strikes. Obviously, MLB pitchers have much better command- but at the same time, I would bet that most walks (non-intentional) are mistakes. Do you honestly think that pitchers are trying to pitch around Counsell? Like I said above, how many times would Counsell have walked facing Eckersley or Greg Maddux? If a pitcher has a high walk rate, then is it due to his lack of control or the discipline of the hitters that he's been facing? Maybe Manny Parra has just had some bad luck in his career, having had to face a bunch of masters of the strike zone.

 

Seriously, when a guy's best discernible offensive skill is drawing a walk, it's a little dubious to me. Maybe he should get some body armor and crowd the plate, he'd then be a two way threat: HBP/BB.

[jhart05]

Im so sick of watching Counsell slowly walk up to the plate with that look like he doesnt even want to be in the majors. He needs to go. He doesnt put any good swings on the ball and pretty much just looks lifeless, like he is just going through the motions. It's getting old quick

 

He has always looked like that hasn't he? At least for as long as I can remember. I think it's just his way of calming himself down and not letting the game situation get him too high or too low.

 

I have to disagree that he doesn't put ANY good swings on the ball. And he is still an above average defender at 2B, 3B, and SS, on a team with starters at two of those positions (3B, SS) that are average at best. He still serves a very useful role on a MLB roster.

 

Yes, I like Counsell, and not just because he's the same age as me.

[xisxisxis]

Obviously, MLB pitchers have much better command- but at the same time,

I would bet that most walks (non-intentional) are mistakes.

 

By that logic then most players are identical, but some are better than others because they get more mistakes from pitchers. Pujols really isn't more talented than YunE6 and Braun and Gomez are twins separated by better luck on pitcher mistakes. Man when do the brewers hold open tryouts, I might want to give it a shot, I feel lucky these days.

[cwolf2012]

"I will argue until the day that I die that unless you are talking about an elite hitter hitting in front of a non elite hitter (Prince for example), walks are mostly a product of the pitcher."

 

There are 2 things wrong with this:

 

1) You're wrong. Both the hitter and the pitcher play a part in the walk. Let's say a batter gets down 0-2 and walks in 10 pitches after fouling off 4 balls in the zone. Was that the pitcher's fault? I'm not going to say that the pitcher plays no part, because that's wrong too, but give me a break.

 

2) No amount of evidence/logic/reasoning can change your stance according to your own words. That's a problem.

[Funketown]

RockCo, if walks are mostly the product of the pitcher, how would you explain this:

 

Ivan Rodriguez: 10,232 PA, 510 BB (5%)

Nick Swisher: 3,988 PA, 533 BB (13.4%)

[Baldkin]

Pujols pre-Holiday hitting behind him: (05-07) 14.4% BB rate

 

Pujols with Holiday hitting behind him: (08-10): 15.8% BB rate.

 

So, he walks MORE with an elite hitter hitting behind him.

Knowing the strike zone, and not swinging at pitches outside of the zone, and being able to identify pitches you can and cannot hit is most definitely a skill (and one Carlos Gomez completely lacks).

 

Take a look at the plate discipline info on fangraphs sometime.

 

Compare O-swing % (percentage of pitches swung at outside of the zone) of a guy like Pujols to a guy like Gomez and you can see the huge difference (19% to about 40% for Gomez), between two players. Guys who walk a lot, almost always have a very, very low O-swing %. Comparing Counsell to Pujols, you'll see CC swings at less pitches in the zone than Albert, but makes contact more often when he does swing.

[Oxy]

I think what RockCo meant to say was that pitchers don't pitch differently from one batter to another, thus it is basically luck on whether or not any individual pitch that a batter sees is going to be a strike or a ball. How a batter responds to a sequence of those pitchers obviously varies widely among batters based on their approach, from the YuniB school of hitting to the Craig Counsell school of hitting.

 

I agree with this on average, but there are certainly situations within a game that a pitcher changes his approach. On average, it all comes out in the wash and it looks like everybody is pitched to the same. This is obviously wrong though, when you constantly hear pitchers themselves (pay attention to Orel Hershiser on Sunday night baseball) talk about how they change the way they pitch to different guys during different situations.

[RockCoCougars]

"I will argue until the day that I die that unless you are talking about an elite hitter hitting in front of a non elite hitter (Prince for example), walks are mostly a product of the pitcher."

 

There are 2 things wrong with this:

 

1) You're wrong. Both the hitter and the pitcher play a part in the walk. Let's say a batter gets down 0-2 and walks in 10 pitches after fouling off 4 balls in the zone. Was that the pitcher's fault? I'm not going to say that the pitcher plays no part, because that's wrong too, but give me a break.

 

2) No amount of evidence/logic/reasoning can change your stance according to your own words. That's a problem.

I said 'mostly' because there are exceptions, mostly with free swinging hackers and 'sluggers'. Guys like Manny Sanguillen, Shawon Dunston, Neifi Perez and Betancourt rarely walk(ed) because they basically swang at everything. On the other hand, you have guys like Babe Ruth, Harmon Killebrew, Barry Bonds, etc. who drew tons of walks due to their slugging prowess and often getting 'pitched around'- if not intentionally walked. I feel that these two categories are the exception, where you can attribute walks- or the lack thereof, to the hitter. With guys like Counsell (and the bulk of MLB hitters), even though they may be 'selective' and watch a lot of pitches, I would argue walks are mostly attributable to the pitcher. As for fouling off pitches, there may be an art to that with the rare Luke Appling type, but I would guess that double digit pitch count walks are pretty rare. I wonder what the average pitch count for Counsell's walks is- obviously the lesser that number is, the more the onus lies on the pitcher. One thing I am sure of is that no one is pitching around Craig Counsell, so any pitcher who walks him is doing so as a 'mistake'....how doesn't that fall to the pitcher?

[Funketown]

But Counsell has a career 10.8% BB%. For somebody to reach that career BB% simply due to variation would be absurd. How can you possibly not attribute this skill to him?

 

Edit: For comparison, Ryan Theriot has an 8.2% BB%. That's a significant difference given the number of plate appearances each player has.

[RockCoCougars]

But Counsell has a career 10.8% BB%. For somebody to reach that career BB% simply due to variation would be absurd. How can you possibly not attribute this skill to him?

 

Edit: For comparison, Ryan Theriot has an 8.2% BB%. That's a significant difference given the number of plate appearances each player has.

Point taken, but I think Counsell has maintained a rather high rate of BB due to the fact that his overall swing rate is lower than average, while his swing and miss rate is quite low. I would think that guys who swing less would walk more, so they do play a part in the equation- however, I still would place most of the blame on the pitchers inability to throw strikes. Obviously, both the hitter and pitcher play some role in drawing walks, but because there are so many different factors it's impossible to quantify a 'ratio of responsibility'.

 

At any rate, these sorts of arguments are why I love baseball.