Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 1)

[brwrsfan]

Our offense had a few games last year with very large run totals, so that made that number a tad artificially high last year. This season, we also had that stretch where we scored like 20 runs in 12 road games or whatever it was, making that number a tad lower than what it probably will be.

 

However, I'm still having some concerns about our offense. Casey is just brutal right now, Betancourt is below average and Lucroy is marred in a pretty dramatic slump. Throw in the pitcher spot and that gives you half a lineup (or more if Gomez is playing) that is really struggling. At some point Prince is going to cool off and we're going to need other guys to start producing.

[RobDeer 45]

Kotsay starting in CF and batting 2nd again today. Ugh, I thought this was over.

Guess it was a good move http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

[endaround]

Yuni really isn't a wash, he's worse. Escobar had a terrible June so that might start to even out, but the first two months Escobar had wRC+ of 82 and 85. Nothing earth shattering but Yuni is at 52 for the season. That's huge. McGehee is much, much worse this year. And then you have Hart missing a month leading to Kotsay and Almonte playing and no Edmonds.

[Invader3K]

However, I'm still having some concerns about our offense. Casey is just brutal right now, Betancourt is below average and Lucroy is marred in a pretty dramatic slump. Throw in the pitcher spot and that gives you half a lineup (or more if Gomez is playing) that is really struggling. At some point Prince is going to cool off and we're going to need other guys to start producing.

Very legitimate concerns. If Braun and Fielder both cool off at the same time, we're basically screwed. That's probably true of most teams with their 3/4 hitters, though.

I still think McGehee will come around (some of his recent at bats have been encouraging), but I see no reason for optimism with Betancourt. I noticed Ron Roenicke was talking to him in the dugout after he popped out early in yesterday's game, and it appeared he was being rather stern with him. I have to imagine the manager is getting sick of his shortstop's terrible approach at the plate.

 

[fondybrewfan]

RR has been pushing a lot of good buttons right now. He is still making some in game mistakes but at least IMO those mistakes have become fewer and farther in between. RR is learning on the job and seems to be making some good progress. His next logical step should be to just give up un Yuni already and I think he is pretty close to that point. If he had another legitimate every day option at SS he probably would have already made the change. His stubborness with the late innings in the bullpen is a little concerning but he is hardly the only manager who is stubborn in that regard. I don't know why he doesn't use Hawkins more and he probably uses Loe too much.

[DuWayne Steurer]

However, I'm still having some concerns about our offense. Casey is just brutal right now, Betancourt is below average and Lucroy is marred in a pretty dramatic slump. Throw in the pitcher spot and that gives you half a lineup (or more if Gomez is playing) that is really struggling. At some point Prince is going to cool off and we're going to need other guys to start producing.

Very legitimate concerns. If Braun and Fielder both cool off at the same time, we're basically screwed. That's probably true of most teams with their 3/4 hitters, though.

I still think McGehee will come around (some of his recent at bats have been encouraging), but I see no reason for optimism with Betancourt. I noticed Ron Roenicke was talking to him in the dugout after he popped out early in yesterday's game, and it appeared he was being rather stern with him. I have to imagine the manager is getting sick of his shortstop's terrible approach at the plate.

 

I almost NEVER care about 'productive outs', but good lord, with a man on 2nd and nobody out, the weak pop up on the first pitch (and not a good pitch to hit at that) was just a microcosm of Betencourt's approach at the plate. (If you want to call it that) There's context for everything, and he just doesn't see that. He's up there to HIT, and that's that. His approach at the plate gives every indication that game situation makes no difference to him.

[endaround]

I think the microcosm was the game where Roenieke put in Gomez to pinch run to steal 2nd and Betancourt still swings away first pitch. I swear I don't like calling players lazy because it attaches moralistic judgement to what is just a lack of talent but Betancourt seems lazy. For example he can make great plays like cutting off the throw to tag the runner at 2B but then won't move two steps to go after a ground ball. I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of the few ballplayers who honestly has ADHD.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

They showed RRR and Yuni having a discussion after Yuni's first crappy at bat. You couldn't see RRR's lips, but it seemed to be A slightly more intense conversation than usual. Reading between the lines from comments and starting Counsell twice this weekend seems to indicate RRR is getting fed up with Yuni. I've been critical of some of the lineups by RRR as have many, but he seems to be more willing to make changes the further we get into the season...the CF platoon and maybe a SS platoon.

[brwrsfan]

Right, there was that at bat yesterday. The game the other day...it was tied, 2 outs and Gomez comes in to PR. Is running and Betancourt swings and makes an out to end the inning. His numbers are way, way down from last year so I don't know if that was a fluke or he's just terrible this year.

 

Sadly, I really don't think we have much of an option. A Counsell/Wilson platoon just doesn't do it for me. I think Counsell is done (Friday night not withstanding) and Wilson did just get waived by another contending team and has a very pedestrain track record. They probably wouldn't do much worse I guess, but it just doesn't seem to be the answer. The mistake was getting Betancourt in the first place (though nobody would project him to be THIS bad, way below his career numbers).

 

As long as he's playing, we can only hope that he starts to revert back to his form from last season and that Casey and Lucroy stop slumping. Especially Casey. I have no idea why teams continue to pitch to Prince. Until Casey can prove he's capable of driving runs in, there's no reason to pitch to Prince at all.

[endaround]

A Counsell/Wilson platoon will be better. To go along with terrible offense (and yes, last year was a fluke where Betancourt's HR/FB% was almost twice what it has been recently) Betancourt plays awful defense. Someone hitting like Betancourt but playing average defense (something of the floor of a Counsell/Wilson platoon) would be about a win better over a full season.

EDIT:Yeah probably should stop the Yuni talk in this thread

[homer]

Our offense had a few games last year with very large run totals, so that made that number a tad artificially high last year. This season, we also had that stretch where we scored like 20 runs in 12 road games or whatever it was, making that number a tad lower than what it probably will be.

But the Brewers still lead the NL in home runs. So as much as people think they are a small ball team, they are not.

[Thurston Fluff]

Putting Nieves out there when there are better options in AAA immediately comes to mind.

 

Define better options. Last season one of those options was so terrible he got beat out by a guy who was in AA who was not ready for the majors. He was a bad defender and not anywhere near good enough to be a mentor to a still very young catcher. Sometimes one has to look beyond the numbers to see the reasoning. Catching is always one of those spots more so with the current situation.

 

Reading this thread I would think this team is floundering 5 games below .500. We are in first place after sweeping the team ahead of us and have the best record in baseball for about a month now. Just don't understand why it is so hard to believe either A- the manager really doesn't matter or, B- the manager must be pretty good.

 

I think it's time to bow out now and just enjoy what RRR/Melvin are doing. This manager bashing has gone on for three separate managers for about a decade now. Both in winning seasons and losing ones. When nobody seems to be good enough maybe it's time to look at who the judges are not who the manager is.

[homer]

Reading this thread I would think this team is floundering 5 games below .500. We are in first place after sweeping the team ahead of us and have the best record in baseball for about a month now. Just don't understand why it is so hard to believe either A- the manager really doesn't matter or, B- the manager must be pretty good.

 

I think it's time to bow out now and just enjoy what RRR/Melvin are doing. This manager bashing has gone on for three separate managers for about a decade now. Both in winning seasons and losing ones. When nobody seems to be good enough maybe it's time to look at who the judges are not who the manager is.

They finally have a pitching staff.

[TooLiveBrew]

They showed RRR and Yuni having a discussion after Yuni's first crappy at bat. You couldn't see RRR's lips, but it seemed to be A slightly more intense conversation than usual

 

Yeah, I noticed that too. The other thing that stood out was Yuni's body language certainly looked like how a grown man acts when he's being scolded.

 

 

Reading this thread I would think this team is floundering 5 games below .500.

 

Good teams can win in spite of subpar management. Take the late '90s Yankees.

[Raw Biz]

Putting Nieves out there when there are better options in AAA immediately comes to mind.

 

Define better options. Last season one of those options was so terrible he got beat out by a guy who was in AA who was not ready for the majors. He was a bad defender and not anywhere near good enough to be a mentor to a still very young catcher. Sometimes one has to look beyond the numbers to see the reasoning. Catching is always one of those spots more so with the current situation.

Kottaras and Rivera. At some point, a guy is so bad he negates anything he can bring from "mentoring." Nieves is way past that point. He is awful. Homer and TLB also hit the nail on the head when they say we have a pitching staff and are a better team. We've already won a few games this year despite mistakes from Roenicke's managing. Teams can always look for ways to improve and cutting Nieves would be a good step in that direction.

[rluzinski]

yet another safety squeeze. Just let them play already.

He has called 3 squeeze plays (I think?) over the hundreds of times it was possible, and they have all worked. Are you really going to criticize this?

I am criticizing the strategy, not the results. And the fact that is was successful 3 out of 3 times is not very strong evidence that it was the correct call (not very strong evidence of anything when you are talking about three anything). The break even point is going to be very high anyway. With the bases loaded and 1 out, common sense tells you the other team scores a run well over half the time. If RR estimated that each of his attempts would be successful around 75% of the time, they were probably decent calls. I just don't think the success rate was that high. I think Running Ron likes to play that way so he he does.

RockCoCougars wrote:

---

This brand of baseball is much better than sitting around watching Macha wait for a three run homer.

I think most agree that it is more entertaining, sure. Is that what we were talking about?

[Thurston Fluff]

Good teams can win in spite of subpar management. Take the late '90s Yankees.

 

According to this mantra I can say anything and regardless of the evidence I cannot possibly be wrong.

You guys must think this is the best team ever to put on a uniform if it can be this good without someone competent to direct them. Doesn't team performance ever come into the conversation? Comments like they are winning in spite of him seem to derive from someone who made up their mind what it takes to be good, then decided in less than half a season RRR doesn't have it. It couldn't possibly be because he doesn't suck. It can't possibly be because the three months of watching him might not have been enough time to judge him. It can't be because the things you thought were important are not really all that important. You are right about his competence and thus the team's success has to go elsewhere.

Obviously you must think Melvin is a genius then. After all he put together a top level team despite incompetent managing. Beats me how he can be that good at assembling a scouting staff and minor league player development staff but somehow just can't figure out that one position. Apparently that is the case since this manager stuff has gone through Melvin's entire tenure here.

I understand why some don't like him. He isn't a sabre guy. If you believe the only way to succeed is through numbers then I guess I get it. What I don't get is why anyone thinks that is the only way to succeed?

[Ayt]

Backupcatchers, a person doesn't need to be a huge stats guy to think some of RR's decisions are questionable at best. Why does Kotsay need to be anything more than a pitcher hitter? Is there any reason he should ever start in CF? Why is McGehee still hitting 5th? I believe RR has a lot of input when it comes to his bench, so why is Nieves on the roster instead of Kottaras? Why does Yuni need to play so much? Etc.

[Raw Biz]

Agree with Aytumious. I like stats but not as much as some on this site. I don't think you need to be a stats guy to see that attempting a squeeze with a runner on 3rd and one out in the 5th inning of a tie game, with the pitcher, is a terrible idea. Please defend that move if you can.

[Funketown]

Backupcatchers, a person doesn't need to be a huge stats guy to think some of RR's decisions are questionable at best. Why does Kotsay need to be anything more than a pitcher hitter? Is there any reason he should ever start in CF? Why is McGehee still hitting 5th? I believe RR has a lot of input when it comes to his bench, so why is Nieves on the roster instead of Kottaras? Why does Yuni need to play so much? Etc.

Why did they just run a squeeze play in the fifth inning of a game on a 3-1 count against a pitcher who isn't throwing strikes? Why is Kotsay starting in CF again?

 

Quite frankly I think Roenicke has absolutely no understanding of how to manage a baseball team. I thought he had gotten better over these past few games, but then he goes back to Kotsay and squeeze plays like this. I'll leave him at a D grade for now, simply because the team is winning, and I'll give the players the benefit of the doubt and say that playing for Roenicke is somehow helping them perform.

[adambr2]

3-1 squeeze plays with the pitcher up. Nieves still on the roster. Kotsay continuing to bat 2nd and play CF. Ridiculously small sample sizes. Many outs on the bases. Excessive trust in Kam Loe. A terrible bench.

 

My honest current opinion of RR - he's one of the worst managers in baseball, whose only asset is maintaining a positive clubhouse atmosphere, which is easy to do when you're winning. Worst of all, he was given a loaded team in his first season as a manager and is therefore going to receive loads of undue credit both locally and on a national level.

[ELCABALLO45]

Backupcatchers, a person doesn't need to be a huge stats guy to think some of RR's decisions are questionable at best. Why does Kotsay need to be anything more than a pitcher hitter? Is there any reason he should ever start in CF? Why is McGehee still hitting 5th? I believe RR has a lot of input when it comes to his bench, so why is Nieves on the roster instead of Kottaras? Why does Yuni need to play so much? Etc.

Why did they just run a squeeze play in the fifth inning of a game on a 3-1 count against a pitcher who isn't throwing strikes? Why is Kotsay starting in CF again?

 

Quite frankly I think Roenicke has absolutely no understanding of how to manage a baseball team. I thought he had gotten better over these past few games, but then he goes back to Kotsay and squeeze plays like this. I'll leave him at a D grade for now, simply because the team is winning, and I'll give the players the benefit of the doubt and say that playing for Roenicke is somehow helping them perform.

I think we might be overreacting a little bit here.

[Funketown]

I think we might be overreacting a little bit here.

Are we? What has he shown us to believe he understands how to run a team?

[adambr2]

I don't think its an overreaction. At the very least I would label RR as an extreme overthinker.I

[ELCABALLO45]

I think we might be overreacting a little bit here.

Are we? What has he shown us to believe he understands how to run a team?

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