Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 1)

[gregmag]

"How soon people forget how truly awful Yost & Macha were."

I didn't think Macha was that bad compared to the average manager. I think the average manager is pretty poor, though.

Russ, you've said that a couple of times now, and I'm curious about what you mean. By definition, the average manager is average, relative to other managers. Do you mean that the average manager now is poor compared to some historical standard? That the average manager costs his team runs? (That one would be both difficult to quantify and a conceptual problem, given that gaining and losing runs is a zero-sum game.) That the average manager doesn't stack up well against people who make similar kinds of decisions in other fields? Certainly I have no interest in defending the honor of major league managers; I'm just interested in knowing more about what you mean.

[Baldkin]

The average manager leaves lots of runs and -- as a result -- games on the table by consistently doing the following:

1) Not optimizing the lineup -- this could be upwards of 20 runs in a season.

2) Not using his best relievers in the highest leverage situations

3) Not platooning and playing matchups nearly enough.

[endaround]

My guess is Russ was being a bit imprecise. I think he means the median manager sucks and is below average because they are a few standouts.

[fondybrewfan]

So who the heck qaulifies as a good manager? More often than not a good manager is judged soley by wins and wins are probably 95% attributable to player performance and 5% to managerial decision making

[adambr2]

I would really like to see Axford brought in for more long saves in the 8th. Roenicke seems to have no concept of utilizing his bullpen beyond the book.

 

The problem is, beyond Axford, there really is no one out there that you'd bring in for a high leverage situation. We don't have a bad bullpen, it's an average one, but it's just made up of a bunch of average relievers, no one that is going to come in and put out a 7th inning fire.

 

What's going on with Braddock? Isn't he a big power pitcher that was seen as a future closer at one time?

[cwolf2012]

Braddock was that guy last year, adam. He's been injured and significantly less effective this year, though. That makes things tough.

[adambr2]

So who the heck qaulifies as a good manager? More often than not a good manager is judged soley by wins and wins are probably 95% attributable to player performance and 5% to managerial decision making

5% is 8 games per year. If we can agree that a manager affects no more than 8 wins or losses in the column for the entire season, that's still pretty significant. Huge really, if you're a borderline contender.

 

Tony La Russa is a good manager. Not necessarily a good person, but a good manager.

[1992casey]

I believe that a couple of years ago, our statheads said that six games was extreme for a manager and that Ned Yost was approaching that number.

[adambr2]

"We've talked about that, and I think the game is going to kind of dictate that," Roenicke said. "Because if Kameron is needed in the eighth inning, I don't think necessarily we just want to say, 'Hey, we're not going to pitch him in the eighth; we're going to wait until the ninth.'

 

"So I think the game will decide what's going to happen there."

 

 

Hallelujah! We're making progress.

[DHonks]

1992Casey, I don't recall that. What I do remember is that USAtoday (I think) did a metric of best winning percentages of managers in 1-run games (where perhaps a manager can make a difference) and it found that Yost remarkably had one of the top winnings percentages in 1-run games despite never having stability at the back of the pen

[DuWayne Steurer]

I know you'd need a huge sample, but wouldn't W/L above or below expected be a good indication of a manager's ability to affect games?

 

I know during Bobby Cox's tenure, the Braves were very consistently +3 or +4. I guess in a single season you could write that off as dumb luck, or even over several seasons, but if a manager is consistently on the positive side of the ledger, wouldn't that at least be the beginning of a talking point for his ability to squeeze wins out of the statistics?

 

I'm not even talking about getting your players to play better, I'm just talking about pulling the right strings at the right times.

[Bombers]

I'm not even talking about getting your players to play better, I'm just talking about pulling the right strings at the right times.

This is the part that I look at in a manager. Manager's can't get a player to hit more home runs or pitch more strikes. At the end of the day the player has to execute. But a manager has total control on pulling which string at which time. Perfectly said Roco.

 

As it sits right now, to me Roenicke has been mediocre. But I will take mediocre when he is 2 months in to his first manager's job. I think he has more promise than doubt. And in my opinion, I think he would do better if you cut Nieves, bring up George, don't go weeks without a lefty in the pen, and do something about Yun-E6. So part of Reonicke's problems are circled by what Doug has given him.

[homer]

I thought Macha handled the bullpen better than Yost or Roenicke. Macha's only major fault was he was a crusty old dude that didn't get along with his star players. In game I thought he was fine.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I thought Macha handled the bullpen better than Yost or Roenicke. Macha's only major fault was he was a crusty old dude that didn't get along with his star players. In game I thought he was fine.

As did I. I'm floored by how many people think he was a terrible in game tactician. The only thing I ever saw wrong with him was hsi lack of any discernable personality.

[endaround]

Macha was great with the bullpen. Yost was a disaster. Roenike has been better than Yost's managing based on what he hopes would happen. Melvin basically lets mangers pick their bench from what I can tell. Obviously they only have the options he gives them but within those options they can get who they want. So it was Roenike who basically decided who to have. Now maybe Nieves and Kotsay's contract status has some effect but given that their contracts have incentives I would doubt it.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'm not sure great he was with the bullpen. He overused it. While some of that was his starting staff I felt he pulled his starters early quite often. Yes sometimes they were in the sixth and starting to struggle but sometimes you have to let them work their way out of it. Both so they learn to do it and to save the pen. I really have no idea of how to determine how much was his fault and how much was the hand he was dealt but he didn't really get as much out of some of his starters as I thought he should. Thus making it harder on the pen than it had to be.

[Baldkin]

The starters had the worst ERA in the league over his two years as Manager. I'm not sure how you can say he should've left them in longer -- heck, I'd say he needed to take Yovani out sooner rather than leave him in for 110+ pitches.

 

My only fault with Macha was his insistence that Jim Edmonds play CF, even when he couldn't hardly move, and even when Gomez was also playing in the game at the same time.

[adambr2]

I've started to warm up to his lineups. He finally has started to ease up on Casey in the #5 hole.

 

So my biggest complaints right now, bullpen management and the roster. The bullpen, I'm mainly talking about Loe, Roenicke needs to start properly utilizing this guy and stop treating him like a regular 8th inning setup man which he is not. It's also not illegal to bring Axford in with 2 out in the 8th, a concept which I hope RR catches on to.

 

The roster...I'm assuming that his advisement has resulted in the assembly of this bench. Nieves and Kottaras are making Roenicke look awfully bad. If he won't make the move, sooner or later I think Melvin has to step in and intervene, which he has already hinted at.

 

I know we're not going to have studs on the bench, but there have been better players available and passed on to this point. I would prefer to see "talent" higher than "grittiness" in precedence.

[logan82]

I would like to warm up to his lineups. Every time I start to warm up to his lineups he starts Kotsay.

[brewtown82]

I like Roenicke a lot. He doesn't leave pitchers out to dry, and his lineup choices don't just come willy-nilly like Yost. That, and the players love him. Just a great baseball guy.

[adambr2]

Hmm. I just don't see it I guess. If by not hanging his pitchers out to dry you mean he doesn't leave them in longer than he should, I'd have to disagree on a couple counts.

 

As far as the lineups, I guess I'm really not sure what you mean by Yost having "willy-nilly" lineups. Yost had some criticisms, but his lineups were not a very common one. I guess maybe you mean the pitcher batting 8th experiment, but I actually like that he was trying to maximize the production of his lineup.

 

Like I said, I'm starting to warm up to Roenicke's lineups a little more, but he's been far from perfect there. Far too much Kotsay, far too long of a leash for Gomez at #2, McGehee at #5, and just really baffling reasons for keeping Lucroy #8 while he was hot.

[Invader3K]

I like Roenicke a lot. He doesn't leave pitchers out to dry,

I think Kameron Loe begs to differ after last night.

For the most part I've been fine with Roenicke, but that was a real head scratcher last night.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

I like Roenicke a lot. He doesn't leave pitchers out to dry,

I think Kameron Loe begs to differ after last night.

For the most part I've been fine with Roenicke, but that was a real head scratcher last night.

 

His usage of Loe overall has been a head scratcher.

[Invader3K]

I heard some of Roenicke's comments after the game last night. Tom Haudricourt asked him why he left Loe in to give up five runs. Roenicke's response started with, "What do you mean?" He then went on to talk about only having a few pitchers available, but then he was very effusive about how he thinks Loe is a great pitcher, etc. I think he is enamored with Loe and thinks he's an elite setup man.

[FVBrewerFan]

RR biggest problem is hanging on to a player, position in the lineup, bullpen role, etc. too long. Not any different than most managers, but that doesn't make it right. Gomez batting 2nd, McGehee batting 5th, Nieves on the roster, Kotsay, Loe in the set-up role...these are all examples of just staying commited to your plan for too long. Now, some of these decisions should have never been made in the first place, but I'll give a manager the benefit of the doubt on that. Sometimes a manager does something I don't agree with,and it works, so that's fine with me.

 

The problem is that he lets this stuff play out for too long. As many have said, if there was any doubt before about Loe being the set-up guy there shouldn't be any more.