Collisions at the plate

[Ennder]

If a catcher wants to avoid a collision he has the ability to do just that, however if he positions himself in the baseline, he knows what is coming.

 

Posey wasn't blocking the plate, he couldn't move farther off the plate than he was because of how far out of the baseline the runner can go while sliding, if he were any farther off the plate he could never tag the runner out. Something probably should be changed at some point.

[strawbossisevil]

I just watched the video. His knee was on the baseline when he went to catch the ball. He then turned his shoulders into the baseline as he went to make the tag. It wasn't like the Marlin's player went out of his way to run into Posey. Posey was between him and the plate.

[Ennder]

He blocked the minimum amount of the plate he possibly can and still apply a tag if the runner goes out of the baseline and slides while touching the plate with his hand. Posey really couldn't have done anything differently on that play, he didn't go out of his way to block the plate or anything. If the runner had chosen to he had a clear path to the plate and could have slid and reached the plate without touching Posey. That doesn't mean it is a dirty play, in real time you have to make a decision one way or the other before you know what the catcher is doing.

[strawbossisevil]

So, contrary to your first post, he was indeed blocking the plate, which is my point. You block the plate, you have to be ready for a hit. Posey's biggest mistake was trying to make the play while sitting on his knees rather than being up in a more athletic stance. It was a bit lazy on his part to be sitting down like that while in the basepath, and he paid a dear price for that laziness.

[cadillacjosh]

Keep the rules the exact same. Its Buster's fault he got hurt. The way he "blocked" the plate was one of the most un-fundamentally sound jobs ever in baseball. You do not, ever, block the plate on your knees. You're asking to get hurt. If Buster had been in the traditional crouch he would've got run over and he'd be fine. His leg never would've been trapped under his body. instead of trying to change the game, lets make sure every player knows how they're suppose to do things to prevent injury.

 

Its the same thing as you always bunt on a suicide squeeze, never slide into first, etc. People get hurt when you play stupid.

[Ennder]

No he wasn't blocking the plate, there was a clear path to the plate and the runner easily could have slid and not touched Posey. His shoulder may have been on the front side of the basepath but that is very different than blocking the plate. If they made a rule where the C can't block the plate and the runner can't go out of his way to hit the C, Posey would not have broken the rule and the runner would have. There isn't a rule like that so it was all clean but Posey really was not going out of his way to block the plate.

[RobDeer 45]

I really don't think you can do much on this except say catchers can't block the plate or say no contact to the head. Otherwise if the catcher is in the way, he's going to get run over. Really no other choice. The other problem I see with "you can't block the plate" is if the throw is up the line he's going to be in the way so there could be a collision there. Just don't think you can really make that rule.

 

I know this stuff comes up when someone get's hurt, but I would say this is not something that happens a ton. People get hurt in sports.

[strawbossisevil]

Disagree, from the video I've seen of the play, it looks like Posey was in the path the player was headed on. He could have slowed down and slid to the outside of the base, but it would have required the Marlin player to slow down and change direction.

 

http://mocksession.com/20...r-posey-gruesome-injury/

 

Here is the video of the play, if you are interested in seeing it again.

[brwrsfan]

I think Cousins could have slide around him, but if Posey had been 2-3 inches further towards the plate, he has no angle. As a player, running full speed and having to make the decision to hit him or slide around him based on a 2-3 inch window is asking a lot.

 

He COULD have tried to slide around the backside of him, or he COULD have felt he either couldn't get there, had the wrong angle or whatever and went with his second option, lowering the shoulder and going for the front of the plate (which he's also entitled to do, and Posey WAS covering that area of the plate).

 

Contact could have been avoided I think, but I see nothing wrong with this play at all.

[RockCoCougars]

I'll just add that I'm fine with the rules the way they are. It is a sport, and injuries happen in sports. If a catcher wants to avoid a collision he has the ability to do just that, however if he positions himself in the baseline, he knows what is coming.

 

The play is not all that frequent. It isn't like in football where players were being brutalized on a game by game basis with repeated shots with a helmet to the head. If the collisions at home involved a player slamming his helmet into the head of the catcher week after week, I could see taking measures because hits like that are dangerous and potentially deadly, but not so much with a body to body blow.

Couldn't have said it any better. Are we going to ban sliding hard to break up double plays too? Give me a break, this is all about Posey's agent bemoaning the potential huge loss of future revenue from his big asset.

[bjkrautk]

Glad to see a few other people mentioning Posey blocking the plate from his knees; that was my first reaction to the injury in the random news and discussion thread.

 

Curious to know if there's footage out there of Posey blocking the plate, other than the injury. I can't remember ever seeing a catcher set up for a throw like that, so I'm wondering if it's something he was taught, or if he just got lazy on that one play.

 

 

I don't think catching is more dangerous from a collision injury standpoint than playing the middle infield. A catcher rarely has to go airborne in order to make a play in the way that a 2b/ss does to turn a double play with a runner coming in. That's an entire level of vulnerability built-in, and a double-play attempt is far more common than a collision at the plate.

 

The real reason that you move a good-hitting catcher away from behind the plate is that it puts a great deal of stress on the legs / knees to get down in a crouch every game. In-season, that also means that your good hitter only plays ~70-80% of the time.

[davemakovec]

I read an article on SI (by either Joe Sheehan or Will Carroll) talking about this - it mentioned that he was blocking the plate all wrong, and that might be due to the fact that he's not a natural catcher - he was converted in college.

 

A person's knee is terrible at taking impact - if he'd been on his feet, or crouched, he would not have had anywhere near the injury he did.

[topper09er]

I said it early but I can't stress it enough, the first step is to limit how far out of the baseline the runner can slide.

There is no such thing as an absolute baseline. The baseline is 3 feet on either side of wherever the runner is when a tag is attempted. The runner can approach home from way in foul territory and come back to the plate anyway they want. The baseline is then a 6 foot wide strip perpendicular to a straight line between the runner and the plate, even if he is 10 feet in foul territory.

 

The foul line is in no way related to the "baseline"

[logan82]

I think that Cousins could have slid directly into the plate without touching or very minimally brushing Posey.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sure, but as Cousins you don't know how close the throw is going to be. If he felt his best play was to go for the collision, I can't second-guess that.

[logan82]

Sure, but as Cousins you don't know how close the throw is going to be. If he felt his best play was to go for the collision, I can't second-guess that.

I don't second guess the collisions. If Posey catches and holds onto the ball, Cousins is out.

[endaround]

That's the whole point, Cousins is taught to illegally ram into Posey and Oosey is taught to illegally block the plate.

[BCZF]

So the runner should just concede the ball to the catcher on a play at the plate? Automatic out? If the catcher is blocking the plate what is the recourse? Sorry if this was brought up elsewhere..

[RockCoCougars]

Sure, but as Cousins you don't know how close the throw is going to be. If he felt his best play was to go for the collision, I can't second-guess that.

I don't second guess the collisions. If Posey catches and holds onto the ball, Cousins is out.

If the throw beats you, your only play is to knock the heck out of the catcher- especially the glove- to jar the ball out. This isn't little league or beer league softball. The catcher has the advantage with the padding anyway. I'd say that of the handful of injuries that happen on these collisions each year, about half are to the catcher and half are to the runner. I'm tired of sports leagues second guessing the rule book every time a star player gets hurt. The rules protecting quarterbacks in the NFL are absolutely obscene. If this was Wil Nieves no one would even be talking about it today.

[TheCrew]

He blocked the minimum amount of the plate he possibly can

No he

wasn't blocking the plate

Well, which is it?

[And That]

I thought the Brewers' TV crew did a fine job of breaking down where the catcher should be if he wants to avoid contact. I'm all for Schroeder's idea of putting the 45-foot foul territory box that they have on the first base line on the second half of the third base line. Runner steps out of it, he's out. Catcher goes into it, either the runner is safe or the runner has carte blanche to do what he wants to the catcher within the basepath.I can dig that.

 

I don't think Posey was really blocking the plate much, if at all, but as has been mentioned a few times - what in the world was he doing on his knees?

[logan82]

I thought the Brewers' TV crew did a fine job of breaking down where the catcher should be if he wants to avoid contact. I'm all for Schroeder's idea of putting the 45-foot foul territory box that they have on the first base line on the second half of the third base line. Runner steps out of it, he's out. Catcher goes into it, either the runner is safe or the runner has carte blanche to do what he wants to the catcher within the basepath.I can dig that.

 

I don't think Posey was really blocking the plate much, if at all, but as has been mentioned a few times - what in the world was he doing on his knees?

The problem then becomes enforcement. How well is that box between home and 1B enforced?

[jerichoholicninja]

The fact that Todd Greene is alive means the rules are fine. If anyone can survive what he did, nothing needs to be changed.

[And That]

The problem then becomes enforcement. How well is that box between home and 1B enforced?

Not well, but it would be more relevant to the play call at home, so I think the umps would be more likely to pay attention to it. I suppose MLB could also threaten instant replay on those calls, similar to the two feet inbounds calls in the NFL.

[hurricanecrush]

I'm all for Schroeder's idea of putting the 45-foot foul territory box that they have on the first base line on the second half of the third base line. Runner steps out of it, he's out. Catcher goes into it, either the runner is safe or the runner has carte blanche to do what he wants to the catcher within the basepath.I can dig that.

First base is different than any other base though; every play is a force play and players typically go in standing up and always in a straight line. On a play where someone like Weeks or Gomez is trying to score from first on a double, how could you expect the runner to get back in an 18" box within 45' of rounding third? Baserunners don't run in a square like the bases are laid out, so that box is totally unrealistic and would totally change the game. Also, this rule would eliminate any type of hook slides to avoid a tag at home. Why not just make every play at home a force out, like at first?

And if you have one of these boxes at first and home, why stop there? What about second and third?