Roenicke wants me to think he's an idiot (Kotsay in CF)

[Ennder]

I think they are still just trying to protect Hart, day game after a night game means sit. Gomez is likely sitting just because he looked terrible last night. I don't have a problem with this lineup at all.

[southpaw121505]

Hart is an every day play, this is stupid. Fine with Boggs starting.

[logan82]

(OBP/SLG/OPS).

Hart vs RHP 2008-2010 .316/.465/.781

Kotsay vs RHP 2008-2010 .337/.419/.756.

 

They are pretty equal with maybe a slight advantage to Hart. OBP being worth about 1.5-2 times as much as SLG. I think Hart has looked pretty good at the plate over the last week. The defense is what really seperates them. Hart isn't a good or even average defender but Kotsay is so bad he has been relegated to mostly being a DH the last few years. The only reason I can see to use Kotsay over Hart is they are babying Hart a bit.

[endaround]

But then you have to come up for a reason of Kotsay over Boggs.

[logan82]

But then you have to come up for a reason of Kotsay over Boggs.

Mental instability? I really don't know. Kotsay really shouldn't even and wouldn't be on the roster if it was up to me. Boggs is probably a better option than Kotsay. I think Kotsay hurts us because there are better options. The fact that Boggs was in CF over Kotsay leads me to believe even Trip R thinks he is a better defender than Kotsay. He must think very little of Boggs as a hitter since Kotsay plays instead of Boggs so much. No idea what they see in Kotsay.

[derflotr]

Kotsay generally sees plenty of pitches per AB and has gotten on base at a really nice rate so far this season. There's really no reason why he should ever have to start in CF, but he's not nearly as bad a RF as everyone makes him out to be. If Kotsay is truly worthy of this level of universal assault it's time we start ganging up on Craig Counsell.

Plus, a lot of people have an anti-Kotsay agenda they feel like they need to defend - the good things he does are ignored or discredited while his miscues are amplified and exaggerated. I'm not saying the guy should be getting anything more than the occasional PH appearance on this team, but he's really not insufferably bad.

[TooLiveBrew]

Plus, a lot of people have an anti-Kotsay agenda they feel like they need to defend - the good things he does are ignored or discredited while his miscues are amplified and exaggerated

 

I'd like to see some examples of what you mean.

 

Kotsay is what he is, a 1B/DH-caliber defender that can hit you a single or double against RHP. I don't think anyone's out to get him, he's just not a very roster-worthy player.

[JohnBriggs12]

Kotsay generally sees plenty of pitches per AB and has gotten on base at a really nice rate so far this season. There's really no reason why he should ever have to start in CF, but he's not nearly as bad a RF as everyone makes him out to be. If Kotsay is truly worthy of this level of universal assault it's time we start ganging up on Craig Counsell.

Plus, a lot of people have an anti-Kotsay agenda they feel like they need to defend - the good things he does are ignored or discredited while his miscues are amplified and exaggerated. I'm not saying the guy should be getting anything more than the occasional PH appearance on this team, but he's really not insufferably bad.

 

You are absolutely right. Kotsay has been and still is a solid major league player with over 1,600 career hits, and a solid lifetime .278 BA. Other than his power numbers being down in what still is a very small sample, he's the same guy that spent a lot of years as a regular. Brewer fans are so accustomed to big power and big strikeout guys like Branyan, they don't quite know how to appreciate a guy who has walked more than struck out this season. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a manager would have faith in him over a 28 year old like Boggs with just 322 career AB's and a lifetime BA of .211. That's not a knock on Boggs who's deserving a roster spot too but it's reality. If Boggs were so highly thought of, he wouldn't have cleared waivers twice alreay in 2011.

 

Hart is obviously the guy you want in there everyday (except when he's in a prolonged slump), but he did miss all spring and Roenicke's being cautious while at the same time trying to keep a guy who may be needed down the road sharp.

[rluzinski]

Kotsay has been and still is a solid major league player with over 1,600 career hits, and a solid lifetime .278 BA

 

He batted .298 11 years ago. That's very good.

[Ennder]

he's the same guy that spent a lot of years as a regular

 

I really wish this were true but Kotsay has been a bad player for way too long now to think it is.

[endaround]

Can't wait until we get the Nieves and Almonte threads where people rush in and defend those terrible players as well.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Can't wait until we get the Nieves and Almonte threads where people rush in and defend those terrible players as well.

There are fans who are going to defend whatever player is putting on their team's uniforms, no matter what. I don't have a problem with it, but it's not always going to lead to a completely rational discussion about things like who should be getting playing time, or 'we need to upgrade X position' type discussions.

[logan82]

Kotsay hasn't played in more than 120 games since 2006 and 140 games since 2004. His best UZR/150 in a season since 2004(when he had a 4.6) is -8.5. At 1B we have Fielder. The only thing he does even moderately well at this point is hit RHP. Hart and Braun have hit RHP better than he has between 2008-2010. His only possible value is as a pinch hitter against RHP and Boggs might be a better option for that. Kotsay was a very good player but that time has long since passed.

[strawbossisevil]

Can't wait until we get the Nieves and Almonte threads where people rush in and defend those terrible players as well.

There are fans who are going to defend whatever player is putting on their team's uniforms, no matter what. I don't have a problem with it, but it's not always going to lead to a completely rational discussion about things like who should be getting playing time, or 'we need to upgrade X position' type discussions.

The problem is that some here over-exaggerate how bad some of our players are. If some one points out the over-exaggeration, they suddenly are labeled as a player's "defenders", and the claim is made that the won't listen to reason. Yet it is the "over-exaggerators" who are the ones failing to listen to reason.

There are some who over-exaggerate in the other direction as well. Such as those in this thread claiming that Kotsay is the same player as he's been throughout his career (he is below-average in the field at this point).

Their is a lack of rationality among both groups that over-exaggerate a player's strengths/weaknesses.

Also, in this post you talk about "needing to upgrade X position". Once again, a person can say that, but if there are no legitimate alternatives at a certain position then repeating said "need for upgrade" over and over is itself not logical, but merely is a case of whining.

 

I'll agree that Kotsay and Nieves can and should be replaced (or at the very least that Kotsay should be used primarily as a pinch hitter). Some other positions, however, where no immediate capable replacements available, we'll need to sit tight until replacements become available.

[Raw Biz]

Kotsay hasn't played in more than 120 games since 2006 and 140 games since 2004. His best UZR/150 in a season since 2004(when he had a 4.6) is -8.5. At 1B we have Fielder. The only thing he does even moderately well at this point is hit RHP. Hart and Braun have hit RHP better than he has between 2008-2010. His only possible value is as a pinch hitter against RHP and Boggs might be a better option for that. Kotsay was a very good player but that time has long since passed.

I basically agree with everything here, although I think Kotsay may be a better PH than Boggs. However, I would probably rather have Boggs start over Kotsay. My big problem with Kotsay is his defense (or lack thereof) and the fact that he has been playing so often. He's fine for a 5th outfielder and pinch-hitter but shouldn't be playing as much as he has been. I don't see a reason to baby Hart like some do. At this point, he should be ready to go.

I also don't think people are over-exaggerating how bad Kotsay is. Everyone basically accepts the fact that he can draw a walk and hit the occasional single or double but he has no power and no defense. A guy like that shouldn't be starting as much as he has.

[Oxy]

I don't know which thread it was in, but there was an exchange about using "grab a Kotsay" as a euphemism for something really, really bad. That seems like an exaggeration to me. I know that they are just joking around and it's no big deal, but that is where people have seen the exaggeration around here.

[1992casey]

I don't think the issue in this topic is the hand that Roenicke has been dealt. Rather, the issue is what he's doing with it. While the roster might not be ideal, many feel that there's still room for Ron to be utilizing it more effectively.

[Oxy]

I don't think the issue in this topic is the hand that Roenicke has been dealt. Rather, the issue is what he's doing with it. While the roster might not be ideal, many feel that there's still room for Ron to be utilizing it more effectively.

I don't think that a pattern has been established with a full roster though. Either Hart or Morgan has been hurt all year, which has significantly handcuffed RR. I'm pretty sure Roenicke would tell you that he doesn't want to play Kotsay in CF either. The only issue here is babying Hart for a few games and playing Kotsay in CF ONE game. Yesterday, RR put Boggs in center, so hopefully Kotsay's time there is done.

[logan82]

I think Kotsay may be a better PH than Boggs.

 

Maybe, but there really isn't anything that backs that up other than he is older and more experienced players might be better at pinch hitting. If Kotsay is a better pinch hitter the difference is pretty minimal. I would rather have the more versatile player on the roster. One who can play defense.

 

The real problem, as Casey pointed out, is that Ronald has pretty consistently made less than optimal decisions with the lineup. Mostly Kotsay(doing more than pinch hitting) and Gomez decisions(#2, still?).

 

The only issue here is babying Hart for a few games and playing Kotsay

in CF ONE game. Yesterday, RR put Boggs in center, so hopefully

Kotsay's time there is done

That is troubling by itself. He obviously thinks Boggs is a better defender than Kotsy because with both playing Boggs was in CF. That leads me to believe that he thinks Kotsay is a much better hitter than Boggs or that defense matters very little.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Can't wait until we get the Nieves and Almonte threads where people rush in and defend those terrible players as well.

There are fans who are going to defend whatever player is putting on their team's uniforms, no matter what. I don't have a problem with it, but it's not always going to lead to a completely rational discussion about things like who should be getting playing time, or 'we need to upgrade X position' type discussions.

The problem is that some here over-exaggerate how bad some of our players are. If some one points out the over-exaggeration, they suddenly are labeled as a player's "defenders", and the claim is made that the won't listen to reason. Yet it is the "over-exaggerators" who are the ones failing to listen to reason.

There are some who over-exaggerate in the other direction as well. Such as those in this thread claiming that Kotsay is the same player as he's been throughout his career (he is below-average in the field at this point).

Their is a lack of rationality among both groups that over-exaggerate a player's strengths/weaknesses.

Also, in this post you talk about "needing to upgrade X position". Once again, a person can say that, but if there are no legitimate alternatives at a certain position then repeating said "need for upgrade" over and over is itself not logical, but merely is a case of whining.

 

I'll agree that Kotsay and Nieves can and should be replaced (or at the very least that Kotsay should be used primarily as a pinch hitter). Some other positions, however, where no immediate capable replacements available, we'll need to sit tight until replacements become available.

I don't disagree with any of this, honestly.

 

Kotsay shouldn't need to be replaced though. He never should have been brought onto the roster to begin with. He's a replacement level player, which Doug is paying 800K for. Replacement level, by definition, *SHOULD* be available for league minimum. That doesn't mean it's always the case, but it's at least a guideline.

 

Nieves......don't even get me started. We have 2 clearly better options in house in AAA as we speak.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think that a pattern has been established with a full roster though.

 

I don't think any pattern can be established at all no matter how healthy the roster is. I takes time to know the full effect of his moves. Quite frankly as long as there is a reasoned argument for what he's doing I am willing to let it play out before I decide he good or bad. I may have an opinion on whether it will or won't but only after it happens will I know who was right.

Funny thing is the same guys who seem to always preach large sample and let time pass before judging players are the ones who jump all over a manager five weeks into his first season without even allowing there might be a reason or that it might pan out in the long run. Just because the most comprehensive stats we have access to show someone sucks overall doesn't mean those numbers are all that useful in determining how good a manager is by his use of those fan stats. I think it's entirely conceivable there might be situations the manager can be correct in a move even when fan stats say it isn't. I think that way not because I don't believe the stats but because I think we have limited analysis of those stats. Then again I don't think it's unbelievable a professional baseball team, in a multi-billion dollar industry, might just have spent some time/money breaking down all the tape and stats to get a more comprehensive database to work from than fangraphs does. (not a bash on them but they are a fan site so we can be more informed about players overall. That should not be confused with inside analysis done for teams to judge how to use a roster.) If his moves work out I will be fine with him. If they don't over the coarse of a season then will be the time to make a judgement on his ineptitude.

 

Can't wait until we get the Nieves and Almonte threads where people rush in and defend those terrible players as well.

 

I can't wait until we fire yet another manager so some people can start bashing the next manager four weeks into the job as well.

[Baldkin]

If you really think there is some magical stat, or magical idea that makes hitting Gomez second, playing Kotsay over Morgan when both were healthy, throwing Kameron Loe 2 of every 3 games, and playing Kotsay over Boggs in CF the wiser choice.... I'm not sure what to tell you.

[danzig6767]

Kotsay hasn't played in more than 120 games since 2006 and 140 games since 2004. His best UZR/150 in a season since 2004(when he had a 4.6) is -8.5. At 1B we have Fielder. The only thing he does even moderately well at this point is hit RHP. Hart and Braun have hit RHP better than he has between 2008-2010. His only possible value is as a pinch hitter against RHP and Boggs might be a better option for that. Kotsay was a very good player but that time has long since passed.

I basically agree with everything here, although I think Kotsay may be a better PH than Boggs. However, I would probably rather have Boggs start over Kotsay. My big problem with Kotsay is his defense (or lack thereof) and the fact that he has been playing so often. He's fine for a 5th outfielder and pinch-hitter but shouldn't be playing as much as he has been. I don't see a reason to baby Hart like some do. At this point, he should be ready to go.

I also don't think people are over-exaggerating how bad Kotsay is. Everyone basically accepts the fact that he can draw a walk and hit the occasional single or double but he has no power and no defense. A guy like that shouldn't be starting as much as he has.

I do also wonder what Doug and Roenicke like so much about Kotsay? Why both seem to think he's a better player than Boggs?

 

Yea, Kotsay has a very solid approach at the plate by generally working the count and not just being a hacker, but so does Boggs. Hell, last year in AAA he drew 72 walks in only 439 at bats. He had 14 walks in only 60 at bats this year at Nashville for a .500 OBP after posting a .402 OBP the previous year in OKC. Boggs can switch hit. He's better defensively. While Boggs isn't exactly a power hitter, he certainly has more power than Kotsay. So what am i missing here?

 

Once Morgan gets back, i'm pretty sure that Boggs will get DFA and Kotsay won't play much assuming none of the four main outfielders don't suffer a significant injury. That said, i still won't like or understand the decision to keep Kotsay over Boggs even if there likely won't be any sort of big impact on the team either way unless the injury bug strikes the outfield.

[TooLiveBrew]

So what am i missing here?

 

That Roenicke still thinks Kotsay is the Mark Kotsay of 2000-'04

[AdvantageSchneider]

Do you think that perhaps they don't want to upset a veteran like Kotsay by dumping him or burying him on the bench because they hope that they will be able to bring in "quality" veterans in the future.

 

10 years ago guys like Edmonds never would have ended up in Milwaukee, but now we've got a bit of a rep of being a good team and a good clubhouse so guys like that might come here. But if we dump Kotsay or never play him we risk him slamming the organization and then losing a chance at some of those guys in future years? Whereas if we sit boggs or cut him, nobody cares.

 

Not saying that's a good reason, but I wonder if that plays into there thinking at all.