Roenicke wants me to think he's an idiot (Kotsay in CF)

[logan82]

^Yeah, but this is like batting Kendall leadoff and having him play shortstop.

or having him play catcher.

[monty57]

I was thinking of Kendall as well. It seems that Kotsay has the same voodoo power Kendall had, which makes managers playing him more than they should.

 

I didn't like Kotsay making the team out of ST, but he could have some use if used correctly. He can still hold around an average OBP, he just doesn't have any power anymore. He has played multiple positions, so he has some versatility, he just doesn't have the range to be someone who should be played in the field regularly.

 

While I'm not up in arms over Kotsay playing CF/batting #2, it seems that Boggs would be the better choice for CF this game, and Hart should be the #2 hitter, as he's the better player. The more often players are used in what seems to be the incorrect fashion, the more likely it will cost us in the long run.

[umphrey]

Once again, I find only problems with how the player is being used, not with the player. Kotsay has plenty of value as a PH or spot starter against RHP but starting him in center, with this timing, is beyond terrible.

[jeffy]

I understand Gomez needing a day off

 

 

Why? He is 25 years old and gets a day off tomorrow.

[monty57]

OK, here's an interesting situation which came up today. As we all know, Kotsay started in CF. During the 6th, Boggs pinch hit for Mitre, and singled. Kotsay came up during the same inning, and the Padres brought in a lefty to face him. Roenicke kept Kotsay in, who drew a walk. Roenicke then replaced Kotsay with Gomez on defense the next inning.

 

I understand that Kotsay's PA resulted in a positive result (a walk), but if you were going to replace him with Gomez defensively anyway, why not bat Gomez, the righty? Prior to the AB, that would seem to have a better chance of having a positive result. Also, instead of putting Gomez in defensively, why not just put Boggs out there, and put the pitcher in Kotsay's spot? That would seemingly improve the defense, while saving Gomez for a potential PH appearance later. With our depleted bench, using both Boggs and Gomez meant that only Counsell and Lucroy remained for any PH needs later in the game.

 

This leads me to believe that Roenicke feels that (1) Kotsay is a better hitter than Gomez, even against lefties, and (2) Boggs cannot play CF

[ninja33]

gomez replaced braun defensively. kotsay just shifted.

[DHonks]

I just wanted to point out how funny this discussion is. Roenicke was trying to change things a bit by putting a player that he perceives as superior offensively into the lineup. Kotsay is possibly a better #2 hitter than Gomez, due to OBP. The same people that used to say defense doesn't matter (it's all about OPS!) are now saying that going from Gomez to Kotsay for 1 game is going to destroy us. That's just funny. When you've got two crappy options for CF, it doesn't matter which we choose....both are crappy. Why argue over it?

 

As for his decisions, the only thing he's done that bothers me is he's overused Loe from day 1. His baseball moves haven't been as astute as Yost's, but they're well ahead of Macha's incompetence.

[Baldkin]

As for his decisions, the only thing he's done that bothers me is he's overused Loe from day 1. His baseball moves haven't been as astute as Yost's, but they're well ahead of Macha's incompetence.

Wait, you're saying Yost made better baseball moves than Macha?

 

Anyway...

- Loe's arm is going to fall off (he's on pace for 90 appearances!)

- Playing the worst option on the team in CF -- Hart and Boggs would both be better options, if Gomez is so much in need of a day off.

- Giving a terrible hitter the second most ABs on the team, when you have had at least 2 better hitters in the lineup every game (Lucroy and whomever is in RF).

- Starting an inferior option in RF when a clearly better option was available and not-hurt (Kotsay over Morgan)

[Funketown]

I just wanted to point out how funny this discussion is. Roenicke was trying to change things a bit by putting a player that he perceives as superior offensively into the lineup. Kotsay is possibly a better #2 hitter than Gomez, due to OBP. The same people that used to say defense doesn't matter (it's all about OPS!) are now saying that going from Gomez to Kotsay for 1 game is going to destroy us. That's just funny. When you've got two crappy options for CF, it doesn't matter which we choose....both are crappy. Why argue over it?

You're missing the point that a lot of people here are making. No, playing Kotsay over Gomez in CF is not going to kill the team for one game. However, making a similarly stupid move in most games could easily cost this team 3+ wins. Gomez is not that crappy of an option in CF, so long as he hits in the 8-hole. Kotsay is abysmal in CF.

[endaround]

I just wanted to point out how funny this discussion is. Roenicke was trying to change things a bit by putting a player that he perceives as superior offensively into the lineup. Kotsay is possibly a better #2 hitter than Gomez, due to OBP. The same people that used to say defense doesn't matter (it's all about OPS!) are now saying that going from Gomez to Kotsay for 1 game is going to destroy us. That's just funny. When you've got two crappy options for CF, it doesn't matter which we choose....both are crappy. Why argue over it?

 

As for his decisions, the only thing he's done that bothers me is he's overused Loe from day 1. His baseball moves haven't been as astute as Yost's, but they're well ahead of Macha's incompetence.

1. With his speed Gomez is the better offensive player. Neither can really hit but the 15 point difference in OBP is beaten out by Gomez's SLG and basestealing ability

2. Boggs profiles to be exactly the same offensively as Kotsay but can at least play defense.

[danzig6767]

I just wanted to point out how funny this discussion is. Roenicke was trying to change things a bit by putting a player that he perceives as superior offensively into the lineup. Kotsay is possibly a better #2 hitter than Gomez, due to OBP. The same people that used to say defense doesn't matter (it's all about OPS!) are now saying that going from Gomez to Kotsay for 1 game is going to destroy us. That's just funny. When you've got two crappy options for CF, it doesn't matter which we choose....both are crappy. Why argue over it?

 

As for his decisions, the only thing he's done that bothers me is he's overused Loe from day 1. His baseball moves haven't been as astute as Yost's, but they're well ahead of Macha's incompetence.

1. With his speed Gomez is the better offensive player. Neither can really hit but the 15 point difference in OBP is beaten out by Gomez's SLG and basestealing ability

2. Boggs profiles to be exactly the same offensively as Kotsay but can at least play defense.

I'm just guessing here, but if say both Boggs and Kotsay were given about 300 at bats, i'm pretty confident that Boggs would produce better and thus is a better hitter. In a really small sample though of mostly pinch hitting and spot starts, it's more a coin flip on who would produce more at the plate.

[RobertR]

I'm more concerned that Roenicke has apparently run Loe into the ground. In mid-May. That's a problem that could persist for a long time, while a game too many of Kotsay in CF isn't likely to rear its head again.

 

Robert

[Oldcity]

I just don't understand why he's using Loe as some shut-down reliever when he's really only had about a half-season of success. He's burning him out and he was probably just average anyway.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm beginning to think the only thing Roenicke does well is communicate. I was pretty sure he'd be a solid manager that would just drive me crazy with small ball tactics, but so far he's seemed fairly clueless.

 

We need to get a robot version of Kam Loe, so RRR can keep using him so much.

[bill hAll Star]

Ron Ron does not have a ton of offensive depth to work with, but he wastes a ton of outs. We've got Gomez, Betancourt, and normally Nieves or (Almonte) or Kotsay in the lineup every day, too. On top of that, we have a team that either has runners that do some stupid stuff on the bases or aren't fast.

 

I mean, you've got 3 of the best hitters in all of baseball and you're shrinking yourself down to 15 or so outs with small ball, baserunning errors, pitchers hitting (though we have some decent ones), and guys like Nieves/Yuni getting out all the time. The object of the game should be to get Weeks, Braun, Fielder up as much as possible and also have McGehee and Hart there doing their part (though they haven't really yet).

 

Another thought is the fact that guys like Yuni don't work a pitcher. That way, their ace can go 7 instead of 6, their "door-slammer" can face our top hitters once through, and their closer can come on. You look at a lot of the other good teams and they draw enough walks and fight off a good pitcher's stuff until he's KO-ed early and then they get multiple rounds on the middle/late guys.

 

As for defense, I don't know what else to say. I can blame RR for doing this today in CF but his hands are tied. He's been given a great 1, 2, 3 punch, a decent Narveson, and Wolf. He's only got Gomez and Plush (normally only one at a time) with some range in the OF to back them up. We've all gone over the infield defensive issues, but his hands are tied there. It's not like Counsell can play that often, though I would like to see him at SS a little more.

[danzig6767]

I just don't understand why he's using Loe as some shut-down reliever when he's really only had about a half-season of success. He's burning him out and he was probably just average anyway.

While i agree on the overuse of Loe, this is also partly an illustration of the Brewers overall dismal failure to draft and develop quality pitching.

 

Not only is Doug constantly having to either sign free agent pitchers for the pen or find numerous reclamation projects like Loe, Kolb, Turnbow, Axford, etc, when injuries strike, there rarely has been high quality young arms to bring up from the minors to put in the pen and be really productive. We almost never seem able to draft and develop say a Kimbrel and Venters like the Braves have. Some younger drafted arms that aren't destined to be starters, but at least come in the the bigs and are high quality relievers for a few years.

[Thurston Fluff]

Apparently the reason he did it yesterday was because he knew the places Kotsay's speed wouldn't be as problematic in Miller park vs the other fields they played on lately. That and he said Kotsay matched up well against right handers with breaking stuff. He didn't screw the pooch in centerfield and got three walks. Perhaps that was just luck. Perhaps it was a manager who did something based on reasoning founded in knowledge. Either way wouldn't it be better to argue the merits of his decision based on knowing the reasoning vs just assuming he's an idiot and does it just to do it?

I agree he seems to be leaning on Loe too much. Even there though it is far from a fluke in the league. I looked and found plenty of guys with more innings pitched and 5 others with as many appearances or more. Of those six Loe had the least number of innings pitched.

[TooLiveBrew]

It's not like Counsell can play that often, though I would like to see him at SS a little more.

 

Counsell could absolutely handle playing more than he's been utilized so far, though. And I agree that I'd like to see him more since Betancourt isn't an asset on either side of the ball.

[endaround]

I never thought Roenicke didn't have reasons for playing Kotsay. Just that they are stupid reasons. Kotsay is a terrible hitter and fielder and Roenicke is looking for ways to get him more starts. Its a stupid thing to do.

[Thurston Fluff]

Really? Reality and what actually happened doesn't matter at all? Not even when someone accurately predicted it. Do the numbers you use take into account things like what pitches a guy has or what types of pitchers a hitter does well against? The dude says he put him in because he has done well against a certain type of pitcher. He then goes out and does well. Who is stupid? The guy who predicted something based on specific information about a specific type of pitcher or fans who rely on broader, less specific, ones that does not take into account things like type of pitcher or field? This wasn't even a- he hit this dude well in the past- type of small sample argument. This is he hits well against right handed pitchers with breaking stuff. I would expect that to be a much larger sample size to work from. What does your statistical analysis tell you Kotsay does against that type of pitcher? Do you even take that sort of information into account? What would be stupider? A person who takes in depth analysis into account or someone who uses general stats in a one size fits all approach?

[GAME05]

i just think it's amazing Roenicke has gone from Godsent to Idiot in a matter of only a month. i don't think a human being exists where we'd say he's doing ok as manager.

[logan82]

i just think it's amazing Roenicke has gone from Godsent to Idiot in a matter of only a month. i don't think a human being exists where we'd say he's doing ok as manager.

There were concerns even when he was first announced as manager. Unfortunately he has been even worse than feared.

[Raw Biz]

Really? Reality and what actually happened doesn't matter at all? Not even when someone accurately predicted it. Do the numbers you use take into account things like what pitches a guy has or what types of pitchers a hitter does well against? The dude says he put him in because he has done well against a certain type of pitcher. He then goes out and does well. Who is stupid? The guy who predicted something based on specific information about a specific type of pitcher or fans who rely on broader, less specific, ones that does not take into account things like type of pitcher or field? This wasn't even a- he hit this dude well in the past- type of small sample argument. This is he hits well against right handed pitchers with breaking stuff. I would expect that to be a much larger sample size to work from. What does your statistical analysis tell you Kotsay does against that type of pitcher? Do you even take that sort of information into account? What would be stupider? A person who takes in depth analysis into account or someone who uses general stats in a one size fits all approach?

Let's not act like Kotsay went 5-5 with the cycle yesterday. He was 0-2 with 3 walks. Against Stauffer, the RHP with breaking stuff, he flew out, struck out, and walked. Then he walked against a lefty, an at-bat where he could've easily struck out (I remember a couple of strikes being close). I had already turned the game off at this point so I didn't see his last walk. The point is, he didn't exactly tear the cover off the ball. In fact, he only put the ball in play once out of five at-bats. I think everyone knows that Kotsay can draw a walk or two but as far as hitting for any kind of power, he's toast. I also think people weren't upset with the fact that he was playing. It was the fact that he was playing CF when he's basically a 1B and the fact that Roenicke basically benches someone so Kotsay can start 3-4 times a week.

[Thurston Fluff]

i just think it's amazing Roenicke has gone from Godsent to Idiot in a matter of only a month. i don't think a human being exists where we'd say he's doing ok as manager.

 

I have no idea how good he's going to be. It takes time to know if he is or not. Will his playing bench players more early pay off down the road? Seems to be something many managers think does but time will tell. Will his use of certain pitchers ruin the pen? Time will tell. When time has told us then we can make the assessment. Doing so now is a bit early. not to mention unnecessary. At this point why not take some time to see if his reasoning pans out before labeling him good or bad? What's the rush to judgement do to help? Hell what good is rushing to judge? All it does is taint an objective view when there is enough information to go on. If I was forced to judge today I would be one of them who says he is doing ok. Not great, not terrible, just ok. But I wouldn't be basing that on anything close to enough information to be comfortable with.

[homer]

When time has told us then we can make the assessment. Doing so now is a bit early.

 

But as of right now I can say he's been bad since the start of the year.