When does our defense cause a trade?

[Hammer]

This team was built on Pitching and Hitting. Several of you have probably noticed that I keep banging the "we need some more defense" drum. Now that the offense has gone in to a funk the horrible defense is even more pronounced. I'm all in favor of trading away some of our "vaunted offensive players" for a few average hitters that carry gold plated gloves. Where would you start?

 

My take: We need to revamp this infield to make all of this pitching worth while. Fielder, McGehee and YuBet should all be on the block (although YuBet probably has no value at all in a trade). Where would everyone else start?

[Oldcity]

I've wanted McGehee to be traded for a season and a half. Not because he isn't a valuable player, but because he doesn't fit with a team that already has several offensive-oriented players.

[PrinceEatMeat]

The only position I could see us trying to upgrade defensively is SS. Fielder and McGehee aren't going anywhere. I agree that it would be nice to upgrade the defense, but there's no way we'll trade either McGehee or Fielder. Fielder would only go if we are already out of the race around the trade deadline. I think we'll be much improved defensively next year once Gamel is at 1B and somebody better is at SS. This year we might just have to deal with it. It shouldn't be as bad as it is now the whole season.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I've wanted McGehee to be traded for a season and a half. Not because he isn't a valuable player, but because he doesn't fit with a team that already has several offensive-oriented players.

I agree on McGehee, but I just don't see it happening. Maybe in the offseason, but still that is doubtful.

[mothershipconnection]

Agreed on Fielder all the way, like Weeks he's just way too valuable at the plate to make a trade make sense (i.e., the defensive gains won't offset the offensive loss). McGehee I agree on to a lesser extent, as he's cheap and has hit well enough to make him a hard guy to replace without paying a high cost. That leaves us with Betancourt among starters, which already has its own thread. However, I'd love to see them pick up a light-hitting utility IF who plays stellar D, a younger Counsell with a young man's range, in essence.

[owbc]

It's come up before and there really isn't much that can be done at this point. It's hard to find good defensive players because teams do not like to give them up. The defense will be better next year with Gamel and hopefully a new shortstop.

 

In retrospect, it was probably not a good idea to go sign contact pitchers like Marcum, Wolf, and Greinke (to an extent) and expect them to match their career average ERAs with one of the worst defensive infields in baseball.

 

If I remember correctly from last year, 7 out of the 8 playoff teams were in the top 15 in MLB in defense. Having a good defense also seems to be most advantageous to teams that play in hitters parks, although you can't completely sacrifice offense and wind up like Seattle or Oakland.

 

But the Brewers have bigger problems right now, defense can't score runs.

[The Truth]

Prince is obviously an elite hitter but I'm looking forward to seeing someone else at 1B for the Brewers, as Prince is just brutal on defense and at least weekly makes boneheaded plays that high school ballplayers wouldn't make

[TooLiveBrew]

I love Rickie Weeks. But when Rickie Weeks is far & away your best defender in the infield, you've got problems.

[Flood Pants]

I've always thought "offense first" was the way to go, but this season is making me reconsider that. This defense is, unfortunately, really bad. One of the worst I've seen. Zack Grienke's first start for the crew was basically ruined by the players behind him. That really bad first inning certainly had a ripple effect on the team's performance for the rest of the game that's hard to quantify.

 

It's true that replacing Fielder with just about anyone except for maybe Texiera or Pujols would be a net loss in runs. But trading Fielder for a significant upgrade elsewhere and replacing him with Gamel could very well be a net gain in runs. For example, if Fielder could score us a 3B or SS it may be wise to pull the trigger.

 

Hopefully, the offense mashes and the pitching piles up strikeouts to make up for this glaring weakness.

[Invader3K]

I hope Melvin is putting out feelers to the Dodgers about Rafael Furcal. Beyond that, I can't think of any SS that would realistically be available. Still, a better shortstop doesn't solve Weeks and Fielder's shoddy play.

Of course we have to remember teams don't usually make big trades until June at the earliest.

[rluzinski]

SS for sure. I think something good be done at 3B as well, since McGee is nothinh special. Here's his "rest of season" ZiPS projection:

 

.269/.322/.419/.741

 

Add that to his below average defense (and getting worse) and he probably doesn't bring much to the table. Of course, he makes $500k, so he's not really supposed to.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If Casey were to start hitting, a shortstop with more range might make up for some of Casey's defensive shortcomings. I say *some* because range isn't Casey's only problem this year. He's made some real head-scratching plays over at the hot corner.

[TooLiveBrew]

Casey has been awful so far this year. Really frustrating. It really seems to me that all he's done since his big partial first season is get less athletic, heavier, & decline in general.

[Warning Track Power]

The scary thing is that I was counting on Casey to be the cleanup hitter next season when Prince leaves. Starting to look like that might not be the best idea, as I can't imagine what he will look like next season when the Prince protection goes away. Discussion for another thread no doubt, but dropping Weeks in the order may be the best way to protect Braun AND McGehee when Prince leaves.

[PrinceEatMeat]

The scary thing is that I was counting on Casey to be the cleanup hitter next season when Prince leaves. Starting to look like that might not be the best idea, as I can't imagine what he will look like next season when the Prince protection goes away. Discussion for another thread no doubt, but dropping Weeks in the order may be the best way to protect Braun AND McGehee when Prince leaves.

I'd rather just drop Braun a spot to cleanup, bat Hart or Weeks 3rd, and the other one 2nd.

[Warning Track Power]

The scary thing is that I was counting on Casey to be the cleanup hitter next season when Prince leaves. Starting to look like that might not be the best idea, as I can't imagine what he will look like next season when the Prince protection goes away. Discussion for another thread no doubt, but dropping Weeks in the order may be the best way to protect Braun AND McGehee when Prince leaves.

I'd rather just drop Braun a spot to cleanup, bat Hart or Weeks 3rd, and the other one 2nd.

My thought on May 5, 2011, assuming Gamel is 1B and I don't know our SS next season, I'd put the lineup at:

 

CF Nyjer

RF Hart

2B Weeks

LF Braun

3B McGehee

1B Gamel

C Lucroy

SS ?

 

 

[The Truth]

I think it would be awfully tough for this team to win a playoff series with the infield defense that we have. The pitching would have to be lights out and the hitting tremendous to make up for the poor fielding. And in a closely matched playoff series, that is alot to hope for.

 

At the very least, an upgrade to an elite fielding SS is a must at the trade deadline if we are going to make any kind of run.

[RockCoCougars]

As I've said before, I think defense is overrated here. I will grant you that the defense has been atrocious as of late, but it hasn't really mattered because you aren't going to win any games if you can't score any runs. The offense is the bigger issue here. If these guys were losing a bunch of 4-3 games with all the errors, it would be one thing, but they've scored 6 runs in 5 games. Pathetic, but I feared it was coming once Braun and Fielder cooled off a bit.

[PrinceEatMeat]

The scary thing is that I was counting on Casey to be the cleanup hitter next season when Prince leaves. Starting to look like that might not be the best idea, as I can't imagine what he will look like next season when the Prince protection goes away. Discussion for another thread no doubt, but dropping Weeks in the order may be the best way to protect Braun AND McGehee when Prince leaves.

I'd rather just drop Braun a spot to cleanup, bat Hart or Weeks 3rd, and the other one 2nd.

My thought on May 5, 2011, assuming Gamel is 1B and I don't know our SS next season, I'd put the lineup at:

 

CF Nyjer

RF Hart

2B Weeks

LF Braun

3B McGehee

1B Gamel

C Lucroy

SS ?

 

I like that lineup. I'd love to see something similar to that next year. Not sure if they'll drop Weeks from leadoff or not, but they should.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think it would be awfully tough for this team to win a playoff series with the infield defense that we have. The pitching would have to be lights out and the hitting tremendous to make up for the poor fielding. And in a closely matched playoff series, that is alot to hope for.

 

At the very least, an upgrade to an elite fielding SS is a must at the trade deadline if we are going to make any kind of run.

I really hope Melvin realizes that, but somehow I doubt he'll trade for a new SS.

[tstads20]

I just wonder right now how this defense got so bad, was Escobar's presence really so big that that he allowed for Rickie to concentrate more on balls to his left and McGehee to stay in his happy little zone? Cause lord knows that Betancourt is covering maybe about a third of the range that Esco was.

 

Or did Willie Randolph really help these guys that much? Who knows. I know everyone is unhappy, but I think the only upgrade I can see being made is for a more defensive minded shortstop. I don't care if the guy can hit or not, I just want someone who can cover ground, pick it, and throw it. Brendan Ryan would be a nice fit, I just wonder what it'd take to get him, can't be THAT high of a price.

[RockCoCougars]

I just wonder right now how this defense got so bad, was Escobar's presence really so big that that he allowed for Rickie to concentrate more on balls to his left and McGehee to stay in his happy little zone? Cause lord knows that Betancourt is covering maybe about a third of the range that Esco was.

 

Or did Willie Randolph really help these guys that much? Who knows. I know everyone is unhappy, but I think the only upgrade I can see being made is for a more defensive minded shortstop. I don't care if the guy can hit or not, I just want someone who can cover ground, pick it, and throw it. Brendan Ryan would be a nice fit, I just wonder what it'd take to get him, can't be THAT high of a price.

The defense was mostly brutal last season as well, and Escobar played a big role in that.

[logan82]

Weeks has bad stretches throughout the season on defense. He is probably just in a bad streak right now. Hopefully.

[1992casey]

My thought on May 5, 2011, assuming Gamel is 1B and I don't know our SS next season, I'd put the lineup at…

 

Per the Major League Forum FAQ, please keep "full lineup" posts in the designated lineup topic. It's generally stickied in the Major League forum, and it's always available in the Designated Threads List.

 

We've learned from experience that when full lineups are posted elsewhere, topics get sidetracked. For example, this is a topic about defense. Without the lineup rule, it could easily become a debate over Weeks vs. Morgan as the leadoff hitter. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

¡Muchas gracias!

[TooLiveBrew]

As I've said before, I think defense is overrated here.

 

Tell that to Zack Grienke. The bad defense last night is an example of how it taxes your starting (aka best) pitchers unnecessarily. McGehee & Betancourt don't cover much ground, some goes for Prince. So that leaves one plus defender in Weeks, who's actually probably closer to average. Ground balls finding holes is a huge part of what gets called luck, and as you saw in yesterday's games, can be a big difference in runs scoring or not.