Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[logan82]

Do you mean this?

 

"People talk to me about it but it's in my blood," said Betancourt.

"Latin people don't walk too many times. We just go out there and

swing."

[DuWayne Steurer]

If what you have seen with Betancourt has been terrible you are going to have to add a bunch of other guys to the list. It's so early in the season so stats are tough to use for determining this. His average is low but he has hit some balls hard and sooner or later will get his average up. He also has a few errors but so do others. But if this 13 games has shown that he is awful I suppose Weeks, Gomez and Casey are awful as well. Which is not the case. It is just so early and from what I have seen in the 13 games is not awful. We just need more time to see what happens. I like the way this team is setup and if the pitching holds up we are going to win plenty.

It's NOT these 13 games that have shown Betencourt is awful. It's the 3000 at bats he's piled up in the previous 7 years that show he's awful. Expecting that to somehow change in the next several weeks is not the same as expecting Weeks and McGehee to revert to their career norms.

[COBrewerfan]

If what you have seen with Betancourt has been terrible you are going to have to add a bunch of other guys to the list. It's so early in the season so stats are tough to use for determining this. His average is low but he has hit some balls hard and sooner or later will get his average up. He also has a few errors but so do others. But if this 13 games has shown that he is awful I suppose Weeks, Gomez and Casey are awful as well. Which is not the case. It is just so early and from what I have seen in the 13 games is not awful. We just need more time to see what happens. I like the way this team is setup and if the pitching holds up we are going to win plenty.

It's NOT these 13 games that have shown Betencourt is awful. It's the 3000 at bats he's piled up in the previous 7 years that show he's awful. Expecting that to somehow change in the next several weeks is not the same as expecting Weeks and McGehee to revert to their career norms.

That is exactly my point. He may not have the range that everyone wants but he is going to hit in the.260-.270 range with only a slightly higher OBP and decent power. If he limits the errors and hits like that it will compliment the pitching and the speed and power this team has. He will not be as bad as some apparently want him to be and will probably be better than our other options. So I was not expecting him to change. I am expecting him to be what was advertised and it will not be the end of the world. Our defense is a concern but that is because we have Casey, Yuni, Weeks, Prince, Kottaras, and Braun in the field and are all average to below average defenders. Saying Yuni is the sole problem is just short sighted. I didn't mention right field because I am assuming Hart and Morgan will fill that spot above average.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

That is exactly my point. He may not have the range that everyone wants but he is going to hit in the.260-.270 range with only a slightly higher OBP and decent power. If he limits the errors and hits like that it will compliment the pitching and the speed and power this team has. He will not be as bad as some apparently want him to be and will probably be better than our other options. So I was not expecting him to change. I am expecting him to be what was advertised and it will not be the end of the world. Our defense is a concern but that is because we have Casey, Yuni, Weeks, Prince, Kottaras, and Braun in the field and are all average to below average defenders. Saying Yuni is the sole problem is just short sighted. I didn't mention right field because I am assuming Hart and Morgan will fill that spot above average.

But the bolded thing is everyone ELSES point. Nothing he does is 'complimentary'. He's a below average defender, and a below average offensive player. Even if he bounces back and hits his career norms, he's still below average. There's no advantage to having any certain 'type' of player who compiles his stats in any different way. He's below average in the field, and at the bat. He sucks. Nobody said he's the sole problem, but he's a BIG problem, because he's barely above replacement level, and a team hoping to contend shouldn't be fielding guys like that in their starting lineup.

[COBrewerfan]

Well when you trade for a pitcher like Greinke (and are not the Yanks or Sox) you are going to have an issue because of finances. My only question I have is what other cheap options are there? I have seen plenty of fictional trades and "what we should have done" statements and none of them are realistic. It is so much easier to make this stuff up on a message board when you don't have to back them up. Melvin would sit and laugh at the stuff that people write and may actually believe. Knowing that the brewers need a SS, I doubt other teams are just going to give the brewers a fair deal to upgrade their team.

 

We all want great players all over the field but that is just not realistic in Milwaukee, where there are financial restrcitions. And believe it or not, there are worse players in the league, right now. Look at the Mariners lineup or look at the bottom 3 on every team. You can complain about his defense but don't say his offense is worse than what other teams have. Look around the league a little bit. Those words make you sounds like you have not seen another game besides the brewers. Plenty of below average players out there.

[endaround]

There were tons of options before the season started with guys like Cabrera signing for $1m. Is Cabrera a great player? No but he's still better than Betnacourt.

[logan82]

Punto signed with the Cardinals for less than we gave Kotsay. He may or may not have been an option however with us he would have had a chance at being a fulltime starter while he is a backup for the Cardinals. We knew Betancourt would suck and he has. The frustration is that Melvin had most of the offseason to do something and did nothing. Punto is hurt now but there was no way to predict that.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I just don't get all the "there's no one better so stop complaining" stuff from the Betencourt defenders.

 

So what if there's no one better? (actually, there HAS to be, but let's just say there isn't). I don't see the point in saying 'quit complaining'. The guy sucks. He's sucked for 7 years, and he sucks this year. Even if he gets back to his career norms, he's still going to suck. Even if he hits .270, he'll OBP less than .300, and he's got very little power (ONE year of 10+ homers does not a power hitter make).

 

I'm NOT going to say "I'll give him 150 at bats to turn it around." He sucks. I don't know how many more statistical measurements, scout reports, and firsthand descriptions it will take to get that through.

 

Some don't want to boo the guy. Some won't cheer the guy. It is what it is, and as was said in another thread, you can't tell someone else how to be a fan.

[joepepsi]

Punto is the very definition of a replacement level player. If you are going to go with someone like him you might as well just have handed the job to Luis Cruz. I'm not convinced either would add much different value than Betancourt, as both look like huge holes in the lineup to me.

[logan82]

Punto would have at the very least provided above average defense.

[greeg35]

Punto is the very definition of a replacement level player.

 

 

Wow, replacement level? Sounds like an upgrade from Betancourt, sign me up!

[RockCoCougars]

I'm still leaning slightly to Yuni's side on this one, but I got a kick out of this statement..

 

"I just don't get all the "there's no one better so stop complaining" stuff from the Betencourt defenders."

 

It brought me back to the good old days of the Suppan arguments. I wonder if the same people who hated Soup hate Yuni. It would be interesting to go back into the threads and look. For some reason, though I detested Soup, I feel that Yuni is doing much less damage to the team so far.

[Thurston Fluff]

I suspect Melvin getting Yuni was part of the deal because KC wanted him to be part of it. Since Melvin needed a SS anyway I think it made sense. It's one year and I don't believe the Brewers are on a one year, go for it all mode, that some seem to think. They have at least two seasons with this staff as it is and only two position players to be replaced next season. One is already in house in Gamel the other needs to be addressed. I think they thought they would be covered better than they are due to Cruz making a rather silly decision and moving on. SO it's one season where they knew full well they would have a poor SS. I also disagree that they can just spend enough to get what they want. As far as these other options like Punto and Cabrera sure they may be marginally better but if they had to take Yuni as part of the deal why pay both for maybe marginally better?

 

Punto is hurt now but there was no way to predict that.

 

Other than his history no. Someone who has a total of one season with 150 games and only 4 season of 100 plus should raise some alarm bells though.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm still leaning slightly to Yuni's side on this one, but I got a kick out of this statement..

 

"I just don't get all the "there's no one better so stop complaining" stuff from the Betencourt defenders."

 

It brought me back to the good old days of the Suppan arguments. I wonder if the same people who hated Soup hate Yuni. It would be interesting to go back into the threads and look. For some reason, though I detested Soup, I feel that Yuni is doing much less damage to the team so far.

I was middle of the road on Suppan. Guys like him get those contracts, like it or not. It's not Suppan's fault he was grossly overpaid. He was what he was, and apparently Melvin was ok with paying that money based on an NLCS MVP. Suppan at least had SOME value his first 2 seasons.

[Baldkin]

I also disagree that they can just spend enough to get what they want. As far as these other options like Punto and Cabrera sure they may be marginally better but if they had to take Yuni as part of the deal why pay both for maybe marginally better?

Because when you're in the playoff hunt, every single win matters. Because the difference between Yuni and almost anyone else at SS is 1 to 2 wins over the course of a season. Those two wins are worth much more to the team than "marginal".

[topper09er]

OK, this seriously needs to end. Betancourt sucks, stop hoping that this will magically change, or quit your job and just assume that you will win the lottery and everything will work out which would be a similar leap of faith.

 

The people who are naively giving Yuni a chance to show his stuff are making the same mistake as Ronny batting Gomez 2nd over and over. Im sure Roenicke came in during spring training and gave some speech like every position is open and whoever earns it gets it blah blah even though some positions were not up for grab. He did not want to judge his team based on previous seasons or managers because maybe these guys would respond differently blah blah. Then, unfortunately for all of us, Gomez was hot all spring (although his approach did not change at all and the only difference was that he was facing spring training pitching: .333/.344/.667 3 HR over 63 AB....WITH ONE WALK). So based on this Roenicke is letting him bat 2nd because if he could actually hit .333/.344 in the 2 hole that would be great. He is ignoring the 1400+ PAs Gomez has previously had against MLB pitching when he hit .244/.292. All of us here could have told him Gomez would suck, swing at every pitch and never walk and be a terrible 2 hitter in front of the best 3-4 combo in MLB. This is why it is frustrating for us because we feel like everyone in world knows Gomez sucks at hitting except Roenicke who is magically hoping he will turn this around and stop swinging at every pitch.

 

The Yuni defenders (how ironic) are choosing to ignore his past which shows he sucks and only judge him based on what they see with their own eyes in Milwaukee, exactly what Roenicke is doing with Gomez's hitting. This is causing 2 problems, 1 is that people are incorrectly evaluating Yuni based on some unreliable stats or misguided eye tests (like saying he is doing OK because he doesnt have many errors without realizing it is his lack of getting to balls that is his weakness, and this fact actually causes him to have fewer errors because you cant throw a ball into the stands that is slowly rolling in left field), and the other bigger problem is that his entire record shows he sucks and anyone could have told you that (like KC or SEA fans, scouts or stats). Basically by "giving Yuni a chance" you are making the same mistake that Roenicke is with Gomez in the batting order, and time will show you are wrong because guys do not magically completely reverse years of consistent trends.

 

Also, why were we excited to get Greinke? Because he has a proven track record of being a stud including one of the best seasons in the past 30 years for an MLB pitcher. So why is it OK to assume he will continue to be a valuable player when he has not done anything as a brewer? Why will his home debut be a sellout? Why is it OK to be excited about him but not mad with Betancourt? Shouldnt we instead have a discussion on the fact that Greinke may have been good in the past but I am not passing judgement on him until he makes 10 starts for the brewers, and if those starts do not result in great stats we should assume he sucks and will never be able to dominate?

[MJLiverock]

Punto has only played a handful of inning at SS with his peak of about 58 games worth back in 2008.

 

Betancourt may be terrible but I fall into the camp of believing almost every name mentioned is no better. Punto, Luis Cruz, Izturis, they all have warts and none are a slam dunk better option. Cruz and Izturis are so horrible offensively they negate any defensive improvements, Punto is a utility player who I would doubt would last a whole season at SS and not be just as bad.

 

The margin of error on any projection system makes all these guys end up in the same category, replacement level. One may be worse one may be better but there is no guarantee which guy it will be and at this point I wouldn't give up anything for the miniscule chance it makes the team any better. Replacing garbage with garbage is just making a change to make a change.

[monty57]

I think Melvin believes that as a #6/7 hitter, Yuni has some value. Sure, he doesn't take walks, but he makes contact and hits line drives, which should drive in runs, as the guys in front of him get on base at a pretty good clip, and often put themselves into scoring position by hitting doubles. Offensively, he will be better than Escobar was for us last year, and will probably be better than Cruz would've been had we kept him or Counsell would be if he tried playing everyday. Defensively he's not good because he has no range, but at least he makes plays on the balls he gets to.

 

I'm not a Yuni fan, and I wish we had at least held onto Cruz as a viable alternative, but there are some things Yuni is okay at. As it stands, we're kind of stuck with him, since we let Cruz walk, Counsell probably can't take playing everyday, and we have no one in the minors ready to step in. Maybe at trade deadline we'll be able to pick up a SS from a team who's out of it, but I really don't see us picking up a journeyman SS at this point.

[Thurston Fluff]

Because when you're in the playoff hunt, every single win matters. Because the difference between Yuni and almost anyone else at SS is 1 to 2 wins over the course of a season. Those two wins are worth much more to the team than "marginal".

 

This team was built to win x amount of games. There are always scenarios were one more win could be possible if only we had one slightly better guy somewhere. While it always possible to build a team to win X + 1, cost has to be added in that equation regardless of what management says. Taking money out of the equation it could be argued we needed to add a lot more. After all we got the rotation figured out so why not address everything to give us the maximum chance of winning? How about center field? I mean Morgan and Gomez for a winning team? There has to be someone out there who could possibly get us one more win. Why not add a better backup catcher. Are we really going to trust that one win we need to a AAAA guy? How about the bullpen? A bunch of one year wonders and two old guys? Are we really trusting our season to them? If we added another sure fire veteran in his late 20 early 30's that's another possible couple wins right there.

Furthermore if one win would be worth adding Punto then it can be argued that two more wins would be worth adding Punto and Cabrera. Maybe then we add another marginally better 4th outfielder and a backup 1st baseman. After all we'd hate to waste this season hoping Prince can play every game and there has to be someone better than a 33 year old career minor leaguer out there.

This team is built well enough with Yuni at short to be very good. Trying to figure out how he's going to cost us that one magical win vs all the other possible magical win scenarios is futile. Not to mention used the way it's being used in this thread tiresome.

There are always ways to make the team one possible win better. Then again those possible scenarios could play out like Punto and possibly make our team one win worse because he can't help us win on the DL.

Yuni is who he is and he's ours until we find a replacement. Complaining about him or Melvin for having him is fine if there was A- a clear cut better option B- the team sucked or C- We knew Melvin actually wanted him and wasn't forced to take him as part of the deal. I suspect all three are not true.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Yuni is who he is and he's ours until we find a replacement. Complaining about him or Melvin for having him is fine if there was A- a clear cut better option B- the team sucked or C- We knew Melvin actually wanted him and wasn't forced to take him as part of the deal. I suspect all three are not true.

I wouldn't complain about him if the team sucked, because then I wouldn't be concerned about missing the playoffs by a few games while a negative WAR player plays every day.

[Baldkin]

Because when you're in the playoff hunt, every single win matters. Because the difference between Yuni and almost anyone else at SS is 1 to 2 wins over the course of a season. Those two wins are worth much more to the team than "marginal".

 

This team was built to win x amount of games. There are always scenarios were one more win could be possible if only we had one slightly better guy somewhere. While it always possible to build a team to win X + 1, cost has to be added in that equation regardless of what management says. Taking money out of the equation it could be argued we needed to add a lot more.

The problem is that upgrade could've been had at SS for the cost of Mark Kotsay. Or if you disagree, at least a reliable second option could've been had. I'm not taking money out of the equation.

[RockCoCougars]

The problem is that upgrade could've been had at SS for the cost of Mark Kotsay. Or if you disagree, at least a reliable second option could've been had. I'm not taking money out of the equation.

I guess I'm not seeing how any of the options above would be an upgrade over Betencourt. I have a lot of friends who are Twins fans, and they are all in concurrence that Punto is pure garbage, apparently he was Gardenhire's pet a la Jason Kendall and Yost... check his sponsor on Baseball-reference for confirmation. He does nothing particularly well, including defense at short, going further he is an atrocious hitter (Yuni has probably hit more balls hard in two weeks than Punto would in two months). What would Punto bring to the table that Counsell doesn't?

[Ennder]

I have a lot of friends who are Twins fans, and they are all in concurrence that Punto is pure garbage, apparently he was Gardenhire's pet a la Jason Kendall and Yost... check his sponsor on Baseball-reference for confirmation

 

Your friends are simply misjudging his defense, he is definitely above average. Punto wouldn't have been my target though, his value is more from versatility than anything.

[strawbossisevil]

OK, this seriously needs to end.

 

The Yuni defenders (how ironic) are choosing to ignore his past which shows he sucks and only judge him based on what they see with their own eyes in Milwaukee, exactly what Roenicke is doing with Gomez's hitting. This is causing 2 problems, 1 is that people are incorrectly evaluating Yuni based on some unreliable stats or misguided eye tests (like saying he is doing OK because he doesnt have many errors without realizing it is his lack of getting to balls that is his weakness, and this fact actually causes him to have fewer errors because you cant throw a ball into the stands that is slowly rolling in left field), and the other bigger problem is that his entire record shows he sucks and anyone could have told you that (like KC or SEA fans, scouts or stats). Basically by "giving Yuni a chance" you are making the same mistake that Roenicke is with Gomez in the batting order, and time will show you are wrong because guys do not magically completely reverse years of consistent trends.

I agree it needs to end. I'm sick of the negative drama from those who complain for complainings sake. As most have pointed out, there really wasn't any better options available following the trade for Greinke. Punto, is the one most frequently pointed to, but as some have pointed out Punto has been a utility man with limited innings at SS and it is fair to point out that Punto is currently injured (as happens a lot with older players). What position would the Brewers be in if Punto had been our starter going into the season? We would have Counsel starting at SS, with some single-A scrub backing him up. Great plan! Those guys who are approaching their upper 30s are not the type of guy you bring in to be your starting SS. The rigors of the position are just too much.

I guess I haven't seen anyone disagree that Yuni sucks, and has sucked. However, strangely enough to this point his fielding statistics (which you continue to just dismiss as "unreliable" - primarily because they disagree with the loathing you have for Yuni) have shown him to be close to average defensively so far. I don't think any one here thinks he will keep that up (it would be nice if he did). The main point many of us are making is that there were not any better options at SS than Yuni. We were already paying him to be our SS, so we might as well let him fill the spot until we can find someone better to fill the spot. And by someone better, I don't mean someone who is approaching 40 years old or someone who hasn't spent a lot of time at SS. What I mean by someone better is a guy like Furcal, or Hardy, or Scutaro. Someone who will provide a significant upgrade not only for the latter half of the year, but also for the playoffs.

I'll be disappointed with Melvin if we are in the thick of the playoff race at the trade deadline and he doesn't bring an improvement at the position. In the meantime, I'm willing to cut him some slack because there were no really good options for improvement this offseason. I have a feeling that what I wrote above far more representative of the "Yuni defenders" position. None of us are unaware that he's a bad player, but some of us think that a big improvement at the half way point will be a better decision than hoping that a guy approaching 40 years old can stay healthy and put up numbers better than Yuni. Such a move is a coin-flip at best.

Also nice try, trying to explain away Yuni's lack of errors. He actually converted a higher percentage of balls to outs than Escobar did last year. Errors are not his problem, he is actually fairly sure-handed for a SS. His problem is, and always has been, range.

[logan82]

Punto, is the one most frequently pointed to, but as some have pointed out Punto has been a utility man with limited innings at SS and it is fair to point out that Punto is currently injured (as happens a lot with older players). What position would the Brewers be in if Punto had been our starter going into the season?

 

Luis Cruz at SS with CC as the backup and YunE-6 cut. Much better off in other words.