Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[dadofandrew]

The average SS had a .317 OBP last year. SS's do not hit like other players, neither do catchers.

 

Other than the fact many fail to understand offensive production varies by position, Yuni has been near his career numbers, and despite grandeur illusions of suckiness, has been plenty passable in the field. Considering the black hole that would exist if Yuni got hurt, he might be one of the more valuable players, outside of the top 3-5 guys.

[logan82]

I am sure we could get somebody's bench guy for a price.

[Thurston Fluff]

He is what he is. A not very good, here for a year, or until we find someone better, stop gap player. I had some hope he would be one of those dudes who did better in a contract year but that is fading. The bright side is he is a stop gap, here for a year or less, guy who has a very good team around him to pick up the slack. So far he hasn't single handedly destroyed the team so there is that.

 

 

Plus you can stop bringing up the only gets to balls hit right to

him because I said it and I already told people what i meant by it.

 

I'll second that. I think everyone knows what he meant by that. If they didn't he clarified. At this point it's a bit of a strawman.

[TooLiveBrew]

The average SS had a .317 OBP last year. SS's do not hit like other players, neither do catchers.

Who are you addressing?

[strawbossisevil]

1) You are assuming the bench guy will be better/capable of starting full time. A lot of teams have backup SS who are older ala Counsel. For most, there is a reason they are bench players.

 

2) At what cost?

 

3) If you are so sure of a better option being a bench SS for another team, perhaps you could list some names...

 

Marco Scutaro might be available later in the season, and he wouldn't be a bad option. I can't imagine Boston being up for trading him right now though. I think they want to bring on Lowry slowly.

[Robideaux]

The average SS had a .317 OBP last year. SS's do not hit like other players, neither do catchers.

 

Other than the fact many fail to understand offensive production varies by position, Yuni has been near his career numbers, and despite grandeur illusions of suckiness, has been plenty passable in the field. Considering the black hole that would exist if Yuni got hurt, he might be one of the more valuable players, outside of the top 3-5 guys.

I don't think most people "fail to understand offensive production varies by production." I think most understand that a .288 OBP is, by your own definition of average, below average. I think below average hitting combined with below average defense makes for a below average player.

 

Do some fans resort to hyperbole about the extent of how poor a baseball player he is? Sure. But the fact that some exaggerate doesn't make him good, or even passable. He is what he is--a below average hitter and fielder who happens to be our starter by the grace of Doug.

[PrinceFielderx1]

He has made maybe 1 play all year that I wouldn't expect 90% of SS in baseball to make, that is pretty much exactly what was meant by it.

Ok, that's good. I don't recall "a lot" of missed balls by Betancourt so far this season. Mainly because of Roenicke's shifts and smart defensive alignments. If anything Roenicke's plan for aligning the defense has improved Betancourt's defense, and even the team as a whole. That's what I've noticed.

[TheCrew]

He is pretty much exactly what everyone made him out to be, poor range, no OBP player who is one of the worst players to keep a full time job in baseball. That is exactly what he has shown and done so far on the year.

You'll get no arguments on the OBP or poor range - but can people stop with the worst mlb player comment? He hasn't even been the worst player on this team this season, let alone in the majors and I've yet to see a game where the loss could solely be pinned on him. (let's leave his past 3 seasons with the Royals and M's where they are - we are far enough into

this season that we can talk about what players are doing this season)

 

Is he playing above his head right now? Maybe, time will tell if reverts back to career norms defensively - but if he continues to play the way he has, there is no reason to replace him unless you can get a clear cut upgrade. (i.e. Furcal, Reyes, etc.) His bat has been on fire lately as well.......... hot enough to ignore any defensive deficiencies.

 

One thing I really wish this team had is a good glove guy to come off the bench that could be used as a late inning defensive replacement - this is where I think your suggestion of Punto would have been a great fit.

[cwolf2012]

"worst mlb player comment"

 

They don't mean worst player, they just mean worst 130+ game starter.

[Oxy]

"worst mlb player comment"

 

They don't mean worst player, they just mean worst 130+ game starter.

ESPN recently had an insider article about the worst everyday players in the majors (with heavy use of advanced stats). No mention of Betancourt. The big losers were James Loney, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Jonny Gomes.

[Ennder]

we are far enough into this season that we can talk about what players are doing this season

 

These years stats are still completely worthless by themselves.

[TheCrew]

These years stats are still completely worthless by themselves.

Depends what you are looking at - heck when you look at a guys 15 year career, essentially one season is worthless. But for this season, right now, we are 25 games in - not to far off from a 1/4 of the way - and in my book, we can look at what guys have done thus far and evaluate their performance. At what point do you evaluate players performance for the current season?

[Oxy]

we are far enough into this season that we can talk about what players are doing this season

 

These years stats are still completely worthless by themselves.

These stats happened. They are what they are. No, they aren't predictive, but at least for offensive statistics they do show how well a guy has performed. And they DO play a part in changing a guys overall perception and value, although only to a certain extent. The most recent 100 ABs and 250 innings played in the field are more important than 100 ABs and 250 innings played in 2008, but they aren't as important as the 1500 ABs and 3000 innings played over the last 3 years. They are certainly more than worthless, but less than everything. Then again, this is the internet, so it has to be either everything or nothing.

[cwolf2012]

"ESPN recently"

 

ESPN is not a source I particularly care about.

[Ennder]

No these years starts are completely worthless by themselves. You can't say to ignore the previous 3 years and just look at this 1/6th of a season and try to make any kind of logical argument about anything, especially when you are comparing one player to other players over that sample Especially when we were specifically talking about full time players.

 

There is no way the statement Betancourt is one of the worst full time players in baseball can be disproved by looking at the last 25 games, that sample given that argument is just not a worthwhile sample. Yet again you are trying to prove a point by abusing statistics and it just won't work. Betancourt has put up a 0 WAR on the year so far which is probably about what we can expect out of him. Very few of the other players below him on the WAR charts right now will stay below him or keep a full time job all year, that is exactly the point.

 

These years stats do describe what has happened but they cannot be used to talk about how good a player is or isn't or how they compare to other players, they hold no meaning at all in that context. This is even more true in April since that months stats are always erratic in the first place.

[TheCrew]

I don't care for espn either, but people have been throwing tweets, blogs and fan polls out there in their attempt to paint Yuni as the worst player in all of baseball.

[TheCrew]

I'll ask the same question then - at what point do you look at the current season?

[Ennder]

I'll ask the same question then - at what point do you look at the current season?

Depends on the stat you are talking about, but generally speaking never. A single season isn't really enough to discuss a baseball player and compare him to other baseball players.

 

To use an example, I would have had a problem with someone saying Bautista is the best power hitter in baseball after last year. It looks like he is repeating it this year and that second year of doing it makes the argument carry some actual weight, but way too many guys have some goofy spike year (like Bill Hall) and it turns out to be just a fluke. You want to say someone is having a good year or whatever that is fine, but when you try to argue about how good a player actually is, you need more than a 26 game sample.

[Oxy]

"ESPN recently"

 

ESPN is not a source I particularly care about.

Fine. Insert "Matt Meyers, former writer for Baseball America and current editor for ESPN the magazine and ESPN Insider recently...."

 

Is that better?

[The Truth]

Ennder makes a good point about fluke years and that 2 seasons in a row makes for a more compelling argument.

 

Generally speaking a "small sample" stops being so small with about 250 at-bats, or about half a season

[GoudaBrew]

These years stats are still completely worthless by themselves.

Depends what you are looking at - heck when you look at a guys 15 year career, essentially one season is worthless. But for this season, right now, we are 25 games in - not to far off from a 1/4 of the way - and in my book, we can look at what guys have done thus far and evaluate their performance. At what point do you evaluate players performance for the current season?

I think a lot of the Yuni debate has to do with expectations.

 

I literally have no expectations for Yuni when he is up to bat or when he is in position to make a play in the field. Reports from scouts, fans, etc. were so bleak that I just expect him to make an out or make a poor play in the field at every opportunity. So anything positive thing he does is exceeding my expectations. I don't see how anyone could look at a player hitting .267/.290/.337 and be happy with what you're getting (and we're talking about a player currently on a "hot streak").

 

Defense: My eyes say his defense is bad. He is slow. He plays the field like he has bricks in his pockets and his shoes are tied together. I haven't seen any examples of his arm being too bad, but I feel like he should get to more balls, that it looks like it pains him to bend over and that his feet look a little sloppy. I'm convinced that Yuni is one of the worst fielding SS in the game and one of the worst hitters in the game too, but I've weirdly accepted it so far.

 

Yuni B is like that friend of a friend that was invited to come to your house to play cards because you needed another body. You don't like anything about him, but you have to tolerate him because your friend invited him. Sure, your friend could have invited a different friend, one with better qualities, but he didn't and you deal with it.

[Oxy]

I'll ask the same question then - at what point do you look at the current season?

Depends on the stat you are talking about, but generally speaking never. A single season isn't really enough to discuss a baseball player and compare him to other baseball players.

 

To use an example, I would have had a problem with someone saying Bautista is the best power hitter in baseball after last year. It looks like he is repeating it this year and that second year of doing it makes the argument carry some actual weight, but way too many guys have some goofy spike year (like Bill Hall) and it turns out to be just a fluke. You want to say someone is having a good year or whatever that is fine, but when you try to argue about how good a player actually is, you need more than a 26 game sample.

The problem is that you apparently have a light bulb mind without a dimmer switch. On or off, with nothing in between. Either statistics have meaning because the sample size is large enough OR the statistics have no meaning because the sample size is too small. That's just not true. The fact of the matter is that all data means SOMETHING no matter how large or how small the sample is. The smaller the sample, the less meaning, the larger the sample the more meaning. The more recent, the more meaning as well. I've yet to see anybody talk about how great Yuni is because of the last month. Pretty much all the "positive" things that have been said are just as you described. He had an atrocious first week of the season, and he has been quite good since then. That's basically the extent of the positive comments around here. However, his detractors refuse to admit that he's been good for the last 3 weeks. This makes no sense.

[TheCrew]

Depends on the stat you are talking about, but generally speaking never. A single season isn't really enough to discuss a baseball player and compare him to other baseball players.

 

To use an example, I would have had a problem with someone saying Bautista is the best power hitter in baseball after last year. It looks like he is repeating it this year and that second year of doing it makes the argument carry some actual weight, but way too many guys have some goofy spike year (like Bill Hall) and it turns out to be just a fluke. You want to say someone is having a good year or whatever that is fine, but when you try to argue about how good a player actually is, you need more than a 26 game sample.

So regardless of what Yuni does this year we are going to continue to focus on the past 3 season with the Royals/M's? I'm not trying to say Yuni has a good or great career nor have I said he is overall a good or great player - all I've said, is he's played well enough for the Brewers in 2011 and he has been anything but the worst MLB player.

 

Just irritates me when guys continue to throw out the "worst mlb player" label when a primary basis of that argument was advanced defensive metrics and specifically UZR - however, they can't admit that Yuni has played well (for Yuni) in 2011 even when those same metrics that were used to paint him as the worst now show he is playing at a much higher level.

[Nottso]

The other 20-page argument thread about this guy isn't enough?

Obviously not, stupid old man.

[topper09er]

He had an atrocious first week of the season, and he has been quite good since then. That's basically the extent of the positive comments around here. However, his detractors refuse to admit that he's been good for the last 3 weeks. This makes no sense.

Since April 8, 3 weeks ago:

 

16 G .297/.314/.359 2 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 8 RBI

 

In what universe could that be described as "quite good"?

 

That is below average, and especially bad considering this is supposed to be the upside for a guy during a hot streak, meaning he will finish worse than that by the end of the season.

 

That production combined with terrible defense is very bad for a guy who will play 150+ games.