Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[TheCrew]

This is why Gomez is hitting 2, because RRR only judged him based on spring training and ignored the past data, that all of us are familiar with, that shows he will suck it up in the 2 hole. Gomez currently has a .284 OBP in front of the 2 best hitters in the league, and that has already cost us games. Yuni is currently doing the same on defense.

Gomez has been pretty hot this past week - not may not be the best time to criticize RRR for having him in the 2 hole and with that said, if Morgan were healthy he'd probably be taking a good chunk of that playing time anyhow.

[mkm13]

Yes, he is one of the worst starting shortstops in baseball. Most will not deny it. I do not. I just have a problem (and I think a lot of people do to) with the people that seem to think there is an easy upgrade. There is not.

 

Last year I knew that Escobar was one of the worst starting shortstops in baseball. I also understood it would not be easy to find someone better. I was content knowing every team has below average players and a few bad ones. You would think by how people are reacting Yuni was replacing an all star.

[strawbossisevil]

There may be ~ two balls per week that an average SS gets to that Betancourt won't.

 

This could very well be true, but this would also make him one of the worst defensive SSs in baseball.

You won't find me arguing that (see the signature). My point, however, is that there is not as great a difference between "one of the worst" and "average" as many on this board (especially those in the game threads) seem to think. People think "one of the worst" and suddenly they are seeing a handful of plays every game that an "average" shortstop would have made, and that simply confirms the point that people have no idea what an "average" defensive shortstop looks like.

And just because he is one of the worst, doesn't mean the Brewers had much that they could have done about the situation this offseason. It is one thing to be disappointed in a player, it is another to whine incessantly about changing a situation that is/was unchangeable. We had to take him in the Greinke trade. There were no other shortstops that represented an upgrade available. Those are the facts. So until an option for change presents itself, we should just cheer for Yuni, and hope he does better than his previous years' stats suggest.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I have watched approximately 1,000 MLB games in my life. Betancourt is, by far, the worst major league SS i have ever seen.

Heck, i'd be tempted to move Rickie Weeks to SS (blue) if we still had Lawrie on pace to break in as a 2B

 

 

I realize the number of SS in MLB that play above average defense and have a OPS above .750 is limited, but SS that are excellent with the glove and hit .600 are a dime a dozen.

[derflotr]

So if they're a dime a dozen why can't anybody find a replacement for him?

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

1) We're at/over budget

2) Doug Melvin does brilliant things but sometimes is stubborn about keeping bad players around

3) Nobody is eliminated from contention yet.

[HiAndTight]

I'm going off what Betancourt has done for the Brewers this season - and he's been a pleasent surprise.

I realize that nothing will dissuade you of your Yuni love, but I'm curious which part you consider thee pleasant surprise? The .293 on-base percentage? The .341 slugging percentage? The no range/ no errors fielding?

Because of his expectations.

 

He haven't been nearly as bad as I thought he would be either, offensively or defensively. The concrete feet comment is no more valid than asking for examples was.

[COBrewerfan]

If Yuni is so awful I have no idea why Alcides is even in the league still then. He can barely keep his OPS at 600. His offense is way, way behind and his glove is slightly better. I would have thought the Royals would have cut him after the trade. Once Yuni has a 300 average all you are going to have left is the fact he doesn't make the spectacular play. Seeing he has made almost every play he should be making.

[Funketown]

If Yuni is so awful I have no idea why Alcides is even in the league still then. He can barely keep his OPS at 600. His offense is way, way behind and his glove is slightly better. I would have thought the Royals would have cut him after the trade. Once Yuni has a 300 average all you are going to have left is the fact he doesn't make the spectacular play. Seeing he has made almost every play he should be making.

In what world is Escobar's glove only slightly better than Yuniesky's? I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but what are people basing these types of statements on?

 

I'm no longer a defend Escobar to the end of the earth right now, but many of these comments about Escobar are ridiculous.

[RobDeer 45]

Think it's based on his errors not is rating or anything like that.

[RobDeer 45]

I'm starting a thread to give YB a little love, that's all. Thought I'd bring some positive vibes to him because he seems to get bashed more than anyone I've seen in a long time. So say it loud and say it proud if you are down YB!

Stay Hot Kid!

[logan82]

1) We're at/over budget

2) Doug Melvin does brilliant things but sometimes is stubborn about keeping bad players around

3) Nobody is eliminated from contention yet.

DM said talent would dictate the payroll this year.

[jhart05]

To hell with whatever metric is the "sexy" one of the day that says he is the worst player in the history of baseball.

 

He's a Brewer right now, so ...

 

Go YB !!

[PrinceEatMeat]

The dude mashes at home, and sucks on the road. He is what he is I guess. I still absolutely hate him in the field, but his bat is definitely serviceable. He's a lot better at the plate than Escobar though, so I guess that's good.

[Oldcity]

I don't understand the backlash to the Betancourt criticism, or the claim that he's serviceable. His OBP is .284, which is pretty much in line with his career.

[TheCrew07]

The true problem here is that the organization has traded 2 MLB caliber SS in 3 years and ran out of options, there has been and will continue to be no long term plan for building this team. And no, extending Braun at this time isn't indictive of any long term plan, there must have been something going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of because from the outside looking in there was no compelling or logical reason to extend him at this time.

 

I agree that Betancourt makes sense in terms of, "he's all we have". However, I have no problem with people continually pointing out what a rotten player he is. It's a factual observation, and a 3 week stretch of a single season won't change that. Anyone can hit well or apparently field well if the sample size is limited to a finite enough amount of time. It has nothing to do with the balls in play that he gets to, and everything about those 2 balls he doesn't get to everytime I seem watch a game that become hits. It's no different than Braun's horrible routes to flyballs... sure the play isn't scored as an error, but the opposing team is getting extra outs and and extra bases all the same. McGehee is another player who just doesn't have a great defensive tools, so the entire left side of the infield has limited range which means too many balls are getting through. The team would actually be better off with Escobar's fantastic range and erratic arm than they are having 2 players side by side with such limited range. I'm not bagging on McGehee, but the situation is what it is. You have 3 players in the infield with extremely limited range, Weeks isn't going to make up for that all by himself. Extra outs and extra bases means extra pitches and unnecessary stress on our pitchers, not to mention unecessary runs given up.

 

I would take the 2009 version of Escobar over most young SS in baseball... I'd still take Escobar over Betancourt now. Alcides may never be the player he has the potential to be, many players don't approach their full potential, it's the nature of the beast, and Alcides doesn't appear to be playing with the same confidence he did when he first came up. Actually I'm mostly referring to last season, I've watched him for a total of 3 innings this season, but stastically he's not exactly tearing it up. Escobar is playing his age 24 season, and he's always been extremely raw at the plate and still approaching his prime, Betancourt is in his age 29 season, I'd rather hang my hat on a young super athlete than I would some "never was" approaching the twilight of his career.

 

WAR isn't the end all and be all of statistical evaluation, but it's an extremely useful comparison tool. I appreciate advanced metrics, but I tend to take more of a scouting slant in player evaluation. That's why I talk in terms of impact talent, I try to be pretty objective about a player's natural gifts and balance those skills against their statistical production. JB12's characterization of people with an opposing view point couldn't be farther from the truth from where I'm sitting. Once again Ennder and I have gone toe to toe on many statistical issues on this site, but in fairness he's pointed out on many occassions that he believe's WAR is flawed, especially in regards to pitchers. I may not agree with contrary opinions to my own, but at least I read them and make an effort to understand the opposing point of view.

 

For the record, TZ is only useful for MiLB players simply because it's the only comparison tool we have at that level. A simple google search of Total Zone will yield plenty of information regarding the flaws in the metric.

 

To me this is similar to the Gamel debate... there are people that continually post around here how he's a overrated prospect with the bat who can't play any defense. The truth is that's he's an impressive athlete capable of elite range with a cannon for an arm, he's just horribly inconsistent defensively and hasn't been given the opportunity to settle in at the plate. The stastical evidence simply doesn't do his physical gifts justice when discussing his defensive issues. Ultimately a player's production yields his true worth, but there seems to be an unrealistic expectation that all young players will take a career path similar to Braun and Fielder if they are going to be successful... but in my opinion most young players are going to struggle to find consistency, and will need to grow into their MLB career.

[PrinceEatMeat]

So 16 HR and 78 RBI isn't serviceable? I get that he doesn't get on base at a great clip, but he's out 7 hitter. I'll take what I can get out of him. He sucks horribly in the field, but his bat isn't bad. It's definitely better than Escobar's by quite a bit sadly. Escobar is hitting .209 with a .234 OBP and .242 SLG. That's just dreadful. If Yuni can drive in 60-65 runs and 10-15 HR for us this year, I'll take that. I know we could use a better fielding SS, but we didn't get one, so we'll have to live with the improved offensive numbers over Escobar for this season. Hopefully next year we improve the position.

[Oldcity]

An OBP under .300 for his career is not serviceable, no.

[PrinceEatMeat]

The thing is that if Betancourt played decently in the field, people would think that his bat is serviceable. I think most people would take 10-15 HR and 60-65 RBI from their SS. I'm not saying that I want Betancourt as our SS, or that I like him. I'm just saying that his bat is decent, and he's our 7 hitter. He is what he is. I wish we had a better defensive SS, but we don't. If he puts up the previous numbers I stated, I can live with him for this year. When we are healthy, he's really the only weakness in our lineup.

[Oldcity]

Once Yuni has a 300 average...

Hope you're not holding your breath on this one.

[HiAndTight]

1) We're at/over budget

2) Doug Melvin does brilliant things but sometimes is stubborn about keeping bad players around

3) Nobody is eliminated from contention yet.

No, we're not. At least not according to everything Melvin and Attanasio has said.

[HiAndTight]

If Yuni is so awful I have no idea why Alcides is even in the league still then. He can barely keep his OPS at 600. His offense is way, way behind and his glove is slightly better. I would have thought the Royals would have cut him after the trade. Once Yuni has a 300 average all you are going to have left is the fact he doesn't make the spectacular play. Seeing he has made almost every play he should be making.

Right, if Prince is only "slightly" better than Alcides offensively, I might by your measure of "slightly."

[Nottso]

The other 20-page argument thread about this guy isn't enough?

[Tedaldtada]

'YB' is the worst thing to happen to this website.

[mkm13]

Right now out of qualified players this year, Yuni is 14th out of shortstops in the majors in OPS. If he hits for his career average (0.688 OPS), he would be 12th out of all the shortstops. His bat is not good, and his low OBP is an issue, but his poor offense is exaggerated for a SS, just like most other things regarding him on this site. Again, he is not good, but there is no need to exaggerate.