Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[Thurston Fluff]

Cabrera is one year older, has a high water mark of 123 games in the last three seasons.

 

Huh?

 

2006 - 153

2007 - 155

2008 - 161

2009 - 160

2010 - 123

My bad. I looked at the splits between two teams as separate seasons.

Betancourt is not really a full time quality player and I'd expect he

has problems finding a full time job next year unless he improves this

year.

 

Of course he's not. Few are saying he is. Some of us are saying we had to take him and keeping him as the stopgap shortstop was a better alternative to paying him not to play and acquiring someone else for a million+ to do little or no better. Cabrera, Punto and the likes are going to find it as difficult to find full time jobs next year as Yuni. As far as how bad he sucks I think it's fair to say he sucks but maybe doesn't suck as bad as I feared he could.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Well some bloggers and writers have said that he is the "worst everyday player" and I guess there are people who take those words and run. However most of those people have never played a sport much less baseball so you have to take those words knowing that. Nobody is arguing that he is stud but there are a number of SS, starting right now, that will not hit and field as good as he was. You can come up with all the silly stats you want and by the end of this year you will see that. The thing that puzzles some of us is how someone who claims to have watched the games can say he has hit and fielded "awfully" this far. It is simply not true.

How are the stats 'silly'?

 

And how has not hit awfully this year? He's got an OPS of .605. He doesn't get on base, and he's hit for almost no power. If that's not the very definition of 'awful' I don't know what is.

 

He's not scalding the ball, as some have suggested. His Line drive percentage is exactly at his career norm. his BABIP is actually higher than it was the past few years. His flyball percentage is higher than it's ever been, and he's not hitting anything with power. His ISO is .061. He might as well be a pitcher for all the good he's done at the plate. And I couldn't give a rip about 3 sac flies. Those are as much a matter of circumstance as they are effort.

[strawbossisevil]

Well some bloggers and writers have said that he is the "worst everyday player" and I guess there are people who take those words and run. However most of those people have never played a sport much less baseball so you have to take those words knowing that. Nobody is arguing that he is stud but there are a number of SS, starting right now, that will not hit and field as good as he was. You can come up with all the silly stats you want and by the end of this year you will see that. The thing that puzzles some of us is how someone who claims to have watched the games can say he has hit and fielded "awfully" this far. It is simply not true.

How are the stats 'silly'?

 

And how has not hit awfully this year? He's got an OPS of .605. He doesn't get on base, and he's hit for almost no power. If that's not the very definition of 'awful' I don't know what is.

 

He's not scalding the ball, as some have suggested. His Line drive percentage is exactly at his career norm. his BABIP is actually higher than it was the past few years. His flyball percentage is higher than it's ever been, and he's not hitting anything with power. His ISO is .061. He might as well be a pitcher for all the good he's done at the plate. And I couldn't give a rip about 3 sac flies. Those are as much a matter of circumstance as they are effort.

Well, if you want to get into what the stats say. The small sample of at bats he's had this season don't suggest that he'll continue to be a player who OPS in the high .500s or low .600s. The statistics suggest he'll likely be almost .100 OPS points better than that going forward.

 

He has disappointed at the plate to this point of the season, but we can't possibly know whether he'll continue to bat worse than what his predictions suggest.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

Well, if you want to get into what the stats say. The small sample of at bats he's had this season don't suggest that he'll continue to be a player who OPS in the high .500s or low .600s. The statistics suggest he'll likely be almost .100 OPS points better than that going forward.

 

He has disappointed at the plate to this point of the season, but we can't possibly know whether he'll continue to bat worse than what his predictions suggest.

 

I have been concerned from the start that this would be his 'fall off a cliff' year, and I'm not seeing anything to suggest that this is not the case. MANY people have said "at least he'll provide some power", but based on what? He's had exactly one season in which he reached double digit homeruns, and granted, that was last year, but to me, that looks like more of an outlier than anything. His batting average the last 2 years trended way downward, and nothing that I've seen OR that the stats show to this point suggest a rebound to his 2007 and before form. He's not hitting for any power, he has drawn 3 walks (one of which was intentional), and his LD%, and BABIP are falling in line with his career norms. He's not performing well. The comments that he's 'stinging the ball all over the place' are a myth, based on the numbers.

 

I know to some, the stats are 'silly', but they almost always tell a better story than the ol' naked eye test. They are what they are. And what the stats are telling me is that unless Betencourt starts hitting with some power, he's not going to get anywhere close to even a .700 OPS.

[COBrewerfan]

Ok so you ignored the point that was made previously. So if his OPS is around .700 like his career average, is that ok? Because to improve your argument you keep using stats from 20 games this year. There are dozens of players that have a low OPS right now. The point is if the trade was not made, Escobar would be at SS for us and would not put up the numbers Yuni will this year. Escobar struggles to keep his OPS around .600. We know you hate Yuni. He has been fine in the field and his bat is just fine for the bottom of the order. As his average comes up and he shows a little power you will just complain about his defense or some play from weeks ago. But thankfully management doesn't listen to someone who has a thought from a blog and watches what is actually happening on the field.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Ok so you ignored the point that was made previously. So if his OPS is around .700 like his career average, is that ok? Because to improve your argument you keep using stats from 20 games this year. There are dozens of players that have a low OPS right now. The point is if the trade was not made, Escobar would be at SS for us and would not put up the numbers Yuni will this year. Escobar struggles to keep his OPS around .600. We know you hate Yuni. He has been fine in the field and his bat is just fine for the bottom of the order. As his average comes up and he shows a little power you will just complain about his defense or some play from weeks ago. But thankfully management doesn't listen to someone who has a thought from a blog and watches what is actually happening on the field.

Yeah, I read a blog, and I don't watch games. *sarcasm* That's exactly it. You can keep saying that, but saying something over and over and over and over and over doesn't make it true.

[RockCoCougars]

I have a feeling that this is going to be one of the longest threads ever on this site.... As I've said before, I'm pulling for Betancourt mainly because he is the best option, hasn't been as bad as advertised- and there are a lot of haters among the Baseball Prospectus fans and the like. That said, it would be tough for anyone to argue that Betancourt has not been better than what Escobar was last year. Frankly, Escobar was brutal in every aspect of the game, including defense. At the same time, I don't think Betancourt is as good as 2009 Hardy- who apparently 'deserved' his demotion to AAA. He's somewhere in between, not a 'good' player, but not the worst player in baseball, either- I don't care what the advanced metrics or the pundits say.

[TheCrew]

Make that 5 multi hit games in his last 8 games - seriously, how can anyone be complaining about this guy based on the way he played for the Brewers so far this season?

[TheCrew]

Punto is pretty comparable to Betancourt with the bat.

The ONLY thing Punto does better is take walks. Betancourt dominates him in pretty much every other area offensively. Punto strikes out twice as often, can't hit for power and I've got to ask - why do we take Mariners/Royals fans words in argument against Betancourt but ignore what Twins fans have said about Punto? Nick Punto gets quite a bit of love as the 'worst mlb player' as well, google it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yep, I haven't watched any games and I am just a slave to WAR, you got me.

Wait -- they PLAY games? I was under the impression that bloggers just ran numbers simulations. Interesting. I'll have to check this out.

[Ennder]

why do we take Mariners/Royals fans words in argument against Betancourt but ignore what Twins fans have said about Punto?

 

Because Fans say punto is a little above average and they say Betancourt is terrible? Just look at the fans scouting report. I've never talked to a fan who complained about Punto's defense until you brought it up. Doing an internet search I still couldn't really find anyone complaining about it, I mostly see things about him being underrated or being too bad of a hitter to play.

[TheCrew]

You asked....

Lets start with Rob Neyer

We can follow that up with Joe Posnanski and how about the guys over at upconfurtherreview or maybe you're a Keith Law fan? Or maybe Posnanski again? Or maybe that his defense, amongst SS's got the lowest rating on the fans scouting reports?

Rob Neyer: Really, a tweet is what we are pulling into this now? Really???

 

Posnanski lists him in his personal top 10................ then says he isn't the worst in the article. Not to mention he even admits of making the gaffe of tagging vernon wells as the worst player the prior season............. not exactly a great track record.

 

Keith Law is just a little blurb promo for his insider piece about how he might be the worst player.

 

Yup, Posnanski again - that's the one where he tagged Vernon Wells as the worst player. Remind me again what Wells did the next season?

 

I could also really care less about fans scouting reviews - after this thread, I've soured on fan reviews http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Sorry, none of this is concrete evidence that he is the worst mlb player or even the worst everyday player - nothing more than a few backhanded comments here and there on internet articles, the only viable ones are Posnanski and even he admits he doesn't have a good track record.

 

I'm going off what Betancourt has done for the Brewers this season - and he's been a pleasent surprise.

I've asked multiple times for specific plays so I could go rewatch on MLB.tv - nothing.

I've asked the critics who was a better option that has played better than him this season - nothing.

[TheCrew]

Because Fans say punto is a little above average and they say Betancourt is terrible? Just look at the fans scouting report. I've never talked to a fan who complained about Punto's defense until you brought it up. Doing an internet search I still couldn't really find anyone complaining about it, I mostly see things about him being underrated or being too bad of a hitter to play.

No they don't, fans hated Punto: http://letmegooglethatfor...q=Punto+Worst+MLB+Player

 

Heck the guy has facebook pages and forums setup he is disliked so much.................

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm going off what Betancourt has done for the Brewers this season - and he's been a pleasent surprise.

 

This is all about being comfortable settling for really poor hitting. Like I said before, if you're ok with a low .600s OPS, no evidence or opinion is going to mean anything to you.

 

 

've asked multiple times for specific plays so I could go rewatch on MLB.tv - nothing.

I've asked the critics who was a better option that has played better than him this season - nothing.

 

I don't really know why anyone should have to bring up specific plays. If you haven't noticed the numerous plays where Betancourt looks like he has concrete feet, then I would surmise you haven't been able to watch many of the games this season. That, or difficulty in separating what is good defensive shifting v. what is good defensive individual execution.

[Robideaux]

I'm going off what Betancourt has done for the Brewers this season - and he's been a pleasent surprise.

I realize that nothing will dissuade you of your Yuni love, but I'm curious which part you consider thee pleasant surprise? The .293 on-base percentage? The .341 slugging percentage? The no range/ no errors fielding?

[Ennder]

Before this mini hot streak Betancourt was 4th in the NL in outs made and I expect him to be right up there with the leaders at the end of the season. Nobody said he is going to hit .000, he is going to get some hits but when you don't walk and you can't keep an OBP of .300 it isn't good. He is a passable SS against LHP and just terrible against RHP.

[TheCrew]

He was billed as the worst shortstop in the game. No, he doesn't have great range - but he does have decent range (see last game in Phillies series - not every SS makes that play).

 

His offense is coming around - 8 game hitting streak with 5 multi hit games.......... he's been pretty damn unlucky on babip.

 

I'm more than happy to change my opine, I'm just tired of hearing about his UZR and what a few bloggers had to say about the guy. I'm not seeing the worst MLB player when I watch him play, I'm seeing a slightly below average defensive shortstop who puts up solid offensive numbers.

 

The reason I asked for specific plays is because I'm trying to see what you guys claim to be seeing.............. if it's bad as some of you claim, surely it shouldn't be too difficult to point a few of these plays. I know he has poor range................ not denying that, but let's see some of these plays that most other SS's could make.

 

I don't love Yuni, I'd love to see a better option out there - but there isn't one, it's why I've asked people what they would do and I've yet to hear anyone name a clear cut upgrade that could have been had.

[TheCrew]

Before this mini hot streak Betancourt was 4th in the NL in outs made and I expect him to be right up there with the leaders at the end of the season. Nobody said he is going to hit .000, he is going to get some hits but when you don't walk and you can't keep an OBP of .300 it isn't good. He is a passable SS against LHP and just terrible against RHP.

Yes, and before the hot streak he had one of the worst BABIP in all of mlb - he was extremely unlucky at the start of the season.

[Baldkin]

Edit.

 

Done. Not worth my time anymore.

[Ennder]

Edit.

 

Done. Not worth my time anymore.

What you originally posted pretty much summed it up but I get why you edited it.

[strawbossisevil]

He was billed as the worst shortstop in the game. No, he doesn't have great range - but he does have decent range (see last game in Phillies series - not every SS makes that play).

No, his range is below average. Even I'll admit that. There may be ~ two balls per week that an average SS gets to that Betancourt won't. To be fair, I think people are going overboard on the criticism at times, acting in the game threads as if he is missing 4+ balls per game. I just don't think many here have a good concept for what an "average" SS gets to. Sometimes they are right, but often they are talking about plays that would be challenging for a gold glove shortstop. We were spoiled by some very good SS over the past half decade in Escobar and Hardy (at least when it came to range/instincts). Many have been looking to confirm their preconceived opinion of Betancourt, so their minds are going to emphasize the negative while playing down any positive plays he might make, and in doing so they often go too far with specific criticisms. I think with some here, there is almost a desire to see him fail, lest he actually look like a decent player...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

His offense is coming around - 8 game hitting streak with 5 multi hit games.......... he's been pretty damn unlucky on babip.

 

I'm more than happy to change my opine, I'm just tired of hearing about his UZR and what a few bloggers had to say about the guy. I'm not seeing the worst MLB player when I watch him play, I'm seeing a slightly below average defensive shortstop who puts up solid offensive numbers.

He isn't the worst MLB player. He is, however, one of the worst MLB starters. But the position of shortstop is very thin in the MLB, so even though he may be a bad starter, there are really no players out there currently that can serve as an upgrade. All the players who were available this offseason would also be "one of the worst MLB starters".

The reason I asked for specific plays is because I'm trying to see what you guys claim to be seeing.............. if it's bad as some of you claim, surely it shouldn't be too difficult to point a few of these plays. I know he has poor range................ not denying that, but let's see some of these plays that most other SS's could make.

Watch the first game in this homestand against Cincinnati on the play where he was on the grass looking to cut the runner at home. The ball was hit nearly right at him and he couldn't glove it. Now, granted, it was a hot shot. But I think an average SS makes that play.

I don't love Yuni, I'd love to see a better option out there - but there isn't one, it's why I've asked people what they would do and I've yet to hear anyone name a clear cut upgrade that could have been had.

This is the best argument, and one for which there hasn't been an answer to. There are no upgrades available currently, and there were no upgrades this offseason following the Greinke trade. I hope that there will be one come the trade deadline, I have my eye on Furcal (if he's healthy).

[topper09er]

I'm going off what Betancourt has done for the Brewers this season - and he's been a pleasent surprise.

This is why Gomez is hitting 2, because RRR only judged him based on spring training and ignored the past data, that all of us are familiar with, that shows he will suck it up in the 2 hole. Gomez currently has a .284 OBP in front of the 2 best hitters in the league, and that has already cost us games. Yuni is currently doing the same on defense.

[RockCoCougars]

If Yuni keeps this hot streak going a few more games, he's going to be hitting .300. Frankly, after today I'm more worried about Gallardo (who's looked like he's switched places with Marco Estrada or something). It's pretty disheartening when they score 6 runs and lose with their #1b on the mound.

[Ennder]

There may be ~ two balls per week that an average SS gets to that Betancourt won't.

 

This could very well be true, but this would also make him one of the worst defensive SSs in baseball. It just isn't a position where a complete hack can play. If Starlin Castro keeps playing the way he has as an example he will be moved to 2B even though his bat is great and he is a 'natural SS'.

[TheCrew]

Thanks strawboss - I'll look that play up.

 

I'm really not trying to be ass or play devils advocate - I just haven't seen him play poorly enough that it warrants the uproar around here. Some people are acting if he is playing as poorly as Suppan did.

 

The last comment is where my gripe really is - there just isn't any other option. I know I probably look like a fan of Yuni at this point, and as I said, I am pulling for the guy - but don't think for a second I wouldn't welcome an upgrade with open arms, I just don't see one out there and really, Yuni hasn't given me a reason to look for one. Furcal just make me nervous with his injury history, if they make a trade I'd rather see them go for a solid glove or go all in for Reyes.