Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's not even remotely arguable that he's been one of the worst everyday players in MLB over the last few years. A mountain of statistical and anecdotal evidence is just too much to overcome.

 

What might be arguable is how bad he's been this year. For me, he's not really passing the eye test, he just looks slow out there. And his bat is 'heating up' to the tune of about a .600 OPS. I couldn't care less what his batting average is. He's hit exactly ZERO homeruns in 23 games (the one aspect of his game that his defenders have espoused), and he's drawn I think 3 walks.

 

So he hits the ball hard, and he makes lots of flyball outs. Until it shows up in the box score, it doesn't matter how hard his outs are.

[mkm13]

A slash line of .259/.284/.321/.605 is so incredibly easy to replace. This guy may not deserve the wrath of 10,000 BF.net suns, but he absolutely does suck.

Where are all these short stops that would post what he did offensively and be an upgrade overall? Again, people overvalue the depth of quality short stops.

 

The line so far is a small sample. I would expect them to come up slightly closer to his career averages (an OPS in the upper .600's).

 

This year, with his OPS of just 0.605, he STILL ranks 16th in all of the majors..basically tied for 15th with Jeter. Also, there is only 11 SS's currently with an OPS of 0.700 or greater. There are not many good hitting short stops.

 

He is not a good player. But he is not as bad as people make him out to be.

[1992casey]

It seems to me that a number of members felt that the Brewers could scrounge the scrap heap or AAA and come up with a better option.

[TooLiveBrew]

He is not a good player. But he is not as bad as people make him out to be.

 

What kills me about this thread is how badly people want to disagree about this. Betancourt sucks. I think everyone can agree with that.

[endaround]

No one thinks they could find a huge offensive upgrade. The point is they should and could find a glove who couldn't hit just like Betancourt can't.

[Roderick]

It seems to me that a number of members felt that the Brewers could scrounge the scrap heap or AAA and come up with a better option.

Yeah, but the Royals forced the Brewers to take Betancourt. So that is a sunk cost. So if you want to replace him you are taking on even more payroll for a negligible increase in production (from a scrap heap player). Seeing as how Betancourt is 29, I was willing to see how his and the team's season played out and then do a trade in July if the circumstances dictated it.

[mkm13]

What kills me about this thread is how badly people want to disagree about this. Betancourt sucks. I think everyone can agree with that.

I am not going to argue with the word "sucks" as I agree he is not a good player. Have never said otherwise. What I am arguing is the ability to find a better option after he was brought in as part of the Grienke deal. All of the names that I have seen floated around this thread are not upgrades (or if they are, it is by a very small amount and very debatable) overall.

 

 

[COBrewerfan]

He is not a good player. But he is not as bad as people make him out to be.

 

What kills me about this thread is how badly people want to disagree about this. Betancourt sucks. I think everyone can agree with that.

I am assuming that everyone who posts on this board has watched the brewers last year. The thing I don't get is how you could watch Alcides last year and think that Yuni is not better than what he gave us last year. He has a much better bat and Alcides had 20 errors so you he doesn't have to be amazing in the field. He would still be our SS this year if the trade was not made and he is starting out just as bad this year. There was never a thread on him and I don't even recall people saying we needed him out of there or we needed an upgrade. So I suppose if you believe these blogs or rating systems that say Yuni is the worst player in the league, you need to actually watch some more baseball and not just believe a a certain post or line made in a blog. There are plenty of worse or more useless players than Yuni. And it's not even close.

'

 

 

[Ennder]

So I suppose if you believe these blogs or rating systems that say Yuni is the worst player in the league, you need to actually watch some more baseball and not just believe a a certain post or line made in a blog

 

Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right, especially when the overwhelming majority have a different opinion. Betancourt has been one of the worst full time players in baseball for the past 3 years, you can argue about this year all you want but the past 3 years it is pretty much the truth. Most players of his quality don't play every day or are young and get better with time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

So I suppose if you believe these blogs or rating systems that say Yuni is the worst player in the league, you need to actually watch some more baseball and not just believe a a certain post or line made in a blog

 

Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right, especially when the overwhelming majority have a different opinion. Betancourt has been one of the worst full time players in baseball for the past 3 years, you can argue about this year all you want but the past 3 years it is pretty much the truth. Most players of his quality don't play every day or are young and get better with time.

Betncourts' WAR the last 3 years is 0.4, -1.7, and 0.6. Cumulatively, not only should he not be starting, he shouldn't be on a major league bench.

[TooLiveBrew]

The thing I don't get is how you could watch Alcides last year and think that Yuni is not better than what he gave us last year.

 

What I don't get is how anyone could watch both players in the field & think that Betancourt is anywhere nearly as valuable at this point. Even if you're going to use errors, which is a terrible way to evaluate defense, Betancourt made 18 last season.

 

 

EDIT: I think the main problem is expectations & what people are realistically willing to accept in terms of production. If a .605 OPS, along with very, very little range in the field is 'pretty good so far', then I don't think any amount of objectivity or evidence is going to change anyone's mind.

[COBrewerfan]

So I suppose if you believe these blogs or rating systems that say Yuni is the worst player in the league, you need to actually watch some more baseball and not just believe a a certain post or line made in a blog

 

Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right, especially when the overwhelming majority have a different opinion. Betancourt has been one of the worst full time players in baseball for the past 3 years, you can argue about this year all you want but the past 3 years it is pretty much the truth. Most players of his quality don't play every day or are young and get better with time.

Betncourts' WAR the last 3 years is 0.4, -1.7, and 0.6. Cumulatively, not only should he not be starting, he shouldn't be on a major league bench.

Well you showed exactly why this argument is silly. I may look up the dozens of others that have the same type of WAR ratings if that is what you are going to use. And that will show just how short sighted and blindly this debate is being looked at. But starting with Escobar and his .3, .6, and -.4, he is still considered a top prospect but Yuni shouldn't even be on a bench? This debate gets better everyday.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right, especially when the overwhelming majority have a different opinion. Betancourt has been one of the worst full time players in baseball for the past 3 years, you can argue about this year all you want but the past 3 years it is pretty much the truth. Most players of his quality don't play every day or are young and get better with time.

Betncourts' WAR the last 3 years is 0.4, -1.7, and 0.6. Cumulatively, not only should he not be starting, he shouldn't be on a major league bench.

Well you showed exactly why this argument is silly. I may look up the dozens of others that have the same type of WAR ratings if that is what you are going to use. And that will show just how short sighted and blindly this debate is being looked at. But starting with Escobar and his .3, .6, and -.4, he is still considered a top prospect but Yuni shouldn't even be on a bench? This debate gets better everyday.

That doesn't even make sense. Betencourt's WAR the past 3 years is cumulatively -0.7. Meaning he's worse than a replacement level, or bench player. Escobar's WAR is cumulatively +.5, meaning he's slightly better than a replacement, or bench player.

 

I don't think anybody would argue that Escobar has sucked this year. However, given each player's history, I don't think it's unreasonable that most feel that Escobar still has a potentially higher ceiling. I know coming out of the minors many felt he had the potential to be a .700 to .750-ish OPS player, with good defense. That's not to say he WILL reach those lofty heights, but that's what a lot of people projected him at. Betncourt never has, and never will be, that type of player, and his defense is putrid.

[Ennder]

http://www.fangraphs.com/...p;season1=2008&ind=0

 

That is sorted by WAR from 2008 until today and people with as little as 500 PA. You'll notice pretty much everyone on that first page is either a young player who is getting a shot simply because of future upside or they are players who have lost their full time job. Betancourt is not really a full time quality player and I'd expect he has problems finding a full time job next year unless he improves this year.

[JohnBriggs12]

COBrewerfan,

 

You need to keep in mind that believers in stats like WAR see these as the "be all and end all" of rating players with what amounts to almost a religious ferver. It's as if those that don't aren't "enlightened" and live in the dark ages. The focus offensively of these ratings is almost entirely on OBP. That makes Betancourt almost the "anti-Christ".

 

You've watched the games. I've watched the games. Betancourt has fielded his position smoothly and efficiently all year. He looks nothing like the guy he was described to be in all the dire threads. We're told fielding percentage is a useless stat though generally the great fielders in history had fine fielding percentages too.

 

I didn't see much of Betancourt as a Mariner or a Royal. I don't doubt that at times, he may have had lapses defensively (as do all players), but once he got labeled by someone, every mistake he made got magnified as "proof of his badness".

[DuWayne Steurer]

COBrewerfan,

 

You need to keep in mind that believers in stats like WAR see these as the "be all and end all" of rating players with what amounts to almost a religious ferver. It's as if those that don't aren't "enlightened" and live in the dark ages. The focus offensively of these ratings is almost entirely on OBP. That makes Betancourt almost the "anti-Christ".

 

Is that even necessary? I'm using WAR as one part of a discussion. I HAVE watched the games this year. I see a guy with bad mechanics and poor lateral movement at times. That seems to match up with the stats, the scouts, and the fans, that all say the guy stinks.

[Robideaux]

I have a feeling this is one of those debates that will never be resolved.

 

Bentancourt is a bad baseball player. Scouts say this. Fans say this. Baseball writers say this. The stats say this. A couple of guys on an internet message board have decided to adopt a contrarian position, either because they feel the level of hate towards Yuni is unwarranted and want to stick up for him or because they do not understand that the #1 thing that determines whether you are a good baseball player or not is the ability to not make out at the plate (OBP) and the ability to convert batted balls into outs in the field (which is a function of hands, arm, AND range).

 

I kind of understand the former reason, especially if it is couched in "he's not good, but he's the best we got." The latter...well, no amount of evidence is going to sway them. Any argument that claims Betancourt is a good player is not based in reason, evidence, or logic, it is purely an argument based in emotion--and facts don't tend to win out over emotions.

[Ennder]

You've watched the games. I've watched the games. Betancourt has fielded his position smoothly and efficiently all year. He looks nothing like the guy he was described to be in all the dire threads. We're told fielding percentage is a useless stat though generally the great fielders in history had fine fielding percentages too.

 

Yep, I haven't watched any games and I am just a slave to WAR, you got me. He looks like he has bricks in his pants, quite possibly the worst range of any SS I've seen play the game in the last few years (Tejada was equally as bad before they moved him). It doesn't matter how smooth he looks when he can't get to balls. His approach at the plate is pretty miserable so he doesn't pass the eye test for hitting either. Scouts, the media and stats all agree on what Betancourt is, the majority of fans also agree with it, there will always be a few people who take the contrary argument in any discussion and they are pretty much impossible to dissuade at that point.

 

Can we at least stop trying to say that people with a different opinion must not watch baseball, that isn't going to take the discussion anywhere and it just makes you look bad to other posters. I've watched as much as 30 hours of baseball a week on a regular basis(unfortunately cant' watch it at work anymore so less these days), my opinions aren't formed from not watching baseball. Pretty much everyone who posts on here regularly at least watches most of the Brewers game if not a lot of baseball in general. Their opinions were not formed by not watching baseball.

[Tedaldtada]

Bentancourt is a bad baseball player. Scouts say this. Fans say this. Baseball writers say this. The stats say this. A couple of guys on an internet message board have decided to adopt a contrarian position, either because they feel the level of hate towards Yuni is unwarranted and want to stick up for him or because they do not understand that the #1 thing that determines whether you are a good baseball player or not is the ability to not make out at the plate (OBP) and converting batted balls into outs in the field (which is a function of hands, arm, AND range).

OMG! You are forgetting the vast importance of sacrifice flies! He is so amazing at hitting those weak fly balls.

[MJLiverock]

Betancourt isn't good and neither were the alternatives, Punto, and all the other marginal players aren't any better. That is the point of strawboss and many other posters, including myself. Citing a stat like WAR and trying to say a guy is .1 or .6 or whatever better is assigning way to much certainty and accuracy to that stat than is possible.

 

Given that list of alternatives like Punto, Cabrera, Renteria, Cruz, I'd wager one will be better than YB, one will be worse, and one will be about the same by the end of the year. Which one will be better? No idea because they are all bad and the differences will likely be marginal.

 

Punto would have been a terrible choice to pencil in as the starting SS given his lack of history there, age, and hitting. If he was the back up infielder utility guy, fine, but that would have meant no Counsell (which may not have been a bad thing given how bad he looks at the plate and may have hit the wall for his age). The team wasn't going to keep two weak hitting back up utility infielders around. If Punto and Counsell were on the team, that still wouldn't have convinced Cruz to stay. And as mentioned, any of these scenarios are a wash to having YB who is bad, just like the rest of that bunch.

[logan82]

Punto is pretty comparable to Betancourt with the bat. Similar wOBA, better OBP, worse SLG. He would have brought better defense. At the very least he could have platooned with Betancourt. Betancourt does 2 things poorly, hit RHP and field. Making him the small half of a platoon would have limited the damage his negative value glove in the field and terrible bat against RHP would do to the team.

 

 

The whole Betancourt made fewer errors than Escobar ignores the fact that you can't make errors on balls you can't get to.

[strawbossisevil]

Making Punto the larger half of a platoon would mean having him likely start more than twice the amount of games at SS than he has in any other season in his career. If he were in his twenties, or heck, even his low 30s that might be conceivable. But he is 34 and on the downside of his career.

 

If you push Punto too hard, his offense would likely suffer even more than it already does. And the likelyhood of an injury would also increase, which has as you well know been a problem he has had over the course of his career.

 

Also, Counsel was already signed when we made the Greinke trade. Are you suggesting dumping Counsel (who is likely to be as good as Punto) and the money that we gave him?

 

Adding Punto would have made a lot of sense if we hadn't already signed Counsel to a deal. Counsel and Punto bring essentially the same thing to the table. The ability to spot-start at multiple IF positions, but not a player you can count on to be an everyday starter.

 

Another problem is that it is merely assumed that Punto even was interested in playing in Milwaukee as a starter at SS. He may not desire to be a starter at this point of his career, or he might not have even been interested in playing in the city of Milwaukee. Lots of assumptions are being made, about things that we can't possibly know.

[logan82]

You may be right. You asked who would have been a better option though. I disagree that we should just assume Betancourt was the best option available.

[COBrewerfan]

Well some bloggers and writers have said that he is the "worst everyday player" and I guess there are people who take those words and run. However most of those people have never played a sport much less baseball so you have to take those words knowing that. Nobody is arguing that he is stud but there are a number of SS, starting right now, that will not hit and field as good as he was. You can come up with all the silly stats you want and by the end of this year you will see that. The thing that puzzles some of us is how someone who claims to have watched the games can say he has hit and fielded "awfully" this far. It is simply not true.

[Thurston Fluff]

Cabrera is one year older, has a high water mark of 123 games in the last three seasons.

 

Huh?

 

2006 - 153

2007 - 155

2008 - 161

2009 - 160

2010 - 123

My bad. I looked at the splits between two teams as separate seasons.

Betancourt is not really a full time quality player and I'd expect he

has problems finding a full time job next year unless he improves this

year.

 

Of course he's not. Few are saying he is. Some of us are saying we had to take him and keeping him as the stopgap shortstop was a better alternative to paying him not to play and acquiring someone else for a million+ to do little or no better. Cabrera, Punto and the likes are going to find it as difficult to find full time jobs next year as Yuni. As far as how bad he sucks I think it's fair to say he sucks but maybe doesn't suck as bad as I feared he could.