Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[TheCrew]

Punto is not an overall upgrade - he's clearly better with the glove, but it's a wash when you factor in the bat. Punto has K'ed nearly 20% of the time the past 2 seasons, hit 2 HR's and hit about .230................. not to mention he turn's 34 this year, won't be long and he'll start to lose that range.

[strawbossisevil]

Punto is an above average defense SS, he would be an upgrade over Betancourt and would have fit ok in a platoon with Counsell but he hasn't played a full season at SS so who knows if he could hold up or not. Renteria and Cabrera aren't really full time SS at this point either, not sure they would be worth it. I guess I get why we went with Betancourt but I would have been working to trade for just about anything to upgrade the position during the off-season.

Exactly, the most games Punto has played at SS in a season is 61. You can't go into a season with a starter in his mid-30s who in his career has never played even a half season at SS, and a backup who is 41. You can't possibly expect Counsel to platoon at this point. That is just asking for trouble (including injuries). Adding Punto would have done us no good. And if he is the best name you can come up with, you are reaching.

The problem with the trade argument, is 1) no one is going to trade a productive SS to us at the beginning of the season. 2) We don't know if any were even available. 3) Even if there were one available, a team could have been demanding too much in return for what would have amounted to only a modest upgrade.

The other problem is people are just stating "go out and get an upgrade somehow in a trade", yet no one has any legitimate names to add to the discussion of who that might possibly mean. The shortstop position is not very deep at the MLB level, which is exactly why there are not many available at this point of the season. If one comes available, it is far more likely to happen at the trade deadline when teams will be willing to give up expiring contracts for prospects.

Edit: Also, based on your own arguments, I don't know how you could possibly say with any certainty that Punto is above average defensively at SS. After all, according to you, you need three full seasons of defensive metrics in order to know how a player does at a position. In order to get a large enough sample size (according to your own arguments on defensive metrics), you would probably have to include his entire career at SS in order for the stats to "mean anything". There is no way that you could possibly have a sample size large enough in order to make such a concrete and firm judgment on Punto's defensive capacity at a position he so rarely plays.

Also, his zone rating (which I know you dislike) at the SS position (in limited innings) have been negative or neutral for the past four seasons ('10 -2, '09 -2, '08 0, '07 -5). In addition he is 34, and you won't likely be seeing those ratings improving at this point.

[logan82]

Three heaqded monster at SS of Cruz, Punto and Counsell would have worked.

[Ennder]

Edit: Also, based on your own arguments, I don't know how you could possibly say with any certainty that Punto is above average defensively at SS. After all, according to you, you need three full seasons of defensive metrics in order to know how a player does at a position

 

You can use other positions with adjustments as well and you can use scouting which generally says Punto is above average and no I'm not going to look at total zone because it is by far the worst fielding metric out there. When multiple sources all point to the same result like in the case of both Punto's and Betancourt's defense you can usually be pretty confident in them.

 

But I don't think you really care about an explanation, you are just being snarky at this point.

[strawbossisevil]

I suppose you can provide links that show scouts claiming Punto is expected to be well above average at SS this year then?

 

I'll go with the Aggregate Defensive Rating (via Fangraphs) which suggests that over the past two seasons he's been average, nothing more, at SS.

 

You are overvaluing Punto's defense, at this point he is average, nothing more. And he isn't getting any younger or more capable of being an option as a full time SS.

[RobDeer 45]

Punto would be a horrible SS! My friends who are Twins fans could not stand him when he had to play more of a full time role. Trust me, you don't want him as your full time SS. Backup, I'd be cool with but he's not even close to a stater.

[TheCrew]

Also worth noting Punto had sports hernia surgery and has missed most of the season thus far - meaning Counsell would have had to start at least 20 games or so to this point..... but it doesn't matter because any upgrade he has oven Yuni on D is given right back with his lack of offense.

[TheCrew]

Seems like his Yuni is starting to turn it around at the plate: 7 game hit streak - including 4 multi hit games during that stretch.

[logan82]

Also worth noting Punto had sports hernia surgery and has missed most of the season thus far - meaning Counsell would have had to start at least 20 games or so to this point..... but it doesn't matter because any upgrade he has oven Yuni on D is given right back with his lack of offense.

We would have held onto Cruz and probably Betancourt so I doubt Counsell would have had to start more.

 

 

[razzzorsharp]

Escobar really showed off his range and arm on a great play today.

[RobDeer 45]

Is Yuni not getting the job done right now? I don't get it. Every time he does something wrong people want his blood (lots of people have noticed this). I know he's not a stud but his offense has been better than expected (he even seems to be more patient at the plate then most thought he would be) and his defense has been good enough. We can't have all stars at every spot. And for the record, I'm one who loves defense over offense at SS. Our team is pretty stacked and we are going to have to have a few spots where we aren't the best. I'd say our CF offense is lacking (but he makes up for it on Def) and our SS is lacking, otherwise we are pretty good. Right now I'm ok with how YB has played because I know that he's not an all star.

And those who want Counsell and people like Punto, their batting avg would be under .200. That's just not a serious option.

[RockCoCougars]

Is Yuni not getting the job done right now? I don't get it. Every time he does something wrong people want his blood (lots of people have noticed this). I know he's not a stud but his offense has been better than expected (he even seems to be more patient at the plate then most thought he would be) and his defense has been good enough. We can't have all stars at every spot. And for the record, I'm one who loves defense over offense at SS. Our team is pretty stacked and we are going to have to have a few spots where we aren't the best. I'd say our CF offense is lacking (but he makes up for it on Def) and our SS is lacking, otherwise we are pretty good. Right now I'm ok with how YB has played because I know that he's not an all star.

And those who want Counsell and people like Punto, their batting avg would be under .200. That's just not a serious option.

Agreed. I'm really starting to pull for Betancourt, because there are so many people who want him to fail. I'm waiting for some of the skeptics to admit that he's been better than they expected, but all I hear about is this lack of range. Most of the plays I've seen cited here illustrating this lack of range would have been infield hits anyway.

[TheCrew]

Yup, the level of baseless dislike for Betancourt is turning me into a fan as well - especially since he is playing well (which, I'll admit, is about league avg defense and an above avg. bat for a SS).

[COBrewerfan]

I have been saying that all along. He is going to hit and he is doing just that. That average is getting up now to around where I expect him to be (.270-.280) and his defense has been just fine for me. If our pitching stays good, he will be just fine at SS. Plus add Hart, Greinke, and Morgan to the team and we will be in really good shape.

[JJHardy7]

Somewhat of a random thought...it seems to be the Brewers are using a lot more shifts this year compared to years past...is this true? Is this to help cover up some potential weaknesses in Yuni?

 

I'm pulling for Yuni, but I just hope he can be a shade under below average at defense. Just wondering if the shifts are meant to help hide his weaknesses a bit.

[TheCrew]

We would have held onto Cruz and probably Betancourt so I doubt Counsell would have had to start more.

How would adding yet another SS to the mlb roster cause Doug to keep Cruz? Cruz refused assignment, he wasn't staying unless he was on the MLB roster - adding yet another SS ahead of him in the organization probably wouldn't have sat well with him. Ignoring that fact, rather than roll with what we have now, you'd rather have Cruz, Betancourt, Counsell and Punto to man the position?

 

Apparently, Doug was not only suppose to sign Punto, but also have the foresight to know he was going to need hernia surgery early in the season and keep Betancourt and Cruz for insurance.

[logan82]

Check the timing of Punto's surgery. We would have gone into camp without Punto. Cruz didn't leave till nearly the end of Spring Training.

 

Punto is also a switch hitter and can play all the infield spots. We don't have a backup infielder besides Counsell right now and we all know Counsell shouldn't play more than twice a week or he will break. Our bench is very poorly set up.

[Baldkin]

Yes, the decision to keep Almonte instead of Cruz may come back to bite the 'Crew in the tail. Also, as for the "baseless dislike" for Betancourt.... well, considering he's been named the worst every day player in baseball 3 years running, I'm not sure how the dislike can be "baseless".

[TheCrew]

He still would have been behind Betancourt and Counsell - same boat we were just in, he refused assignment.

 

Cardinals signed Punto Jan 21st - he was injured mid-late Feb; Brewers probably would have done everything they could to dump Betancourt had they signed anyone.

 

Let me ask the critics this, has there been any option out there that has outplayed Betancourt to this point in the season that the Brewers could have obtained after the Greinke trade?

[TheCrew]

Yes, the decision to keep Almonte instead of Cruz may come back to bite the 'Crew in the tail. Also, as for the "baseless dislike" for Betancourt.... well, considering he's been named the worst every day player in baseball 3 years running, I'm not sure how the dislike can be "baseless".

Named by who? A couple of bloggers who worship UZR?

 

Pretty sure a Brewers relief pitcher was a hell of a lot worse last year than any SS in all of baseball.

[logan82]

TheCrew wrote:

Cardinals signed Punto Jan 21st - he was injured mid-late Feb; Brewers probably would have done everything they could to dump Betancourt had they signed anyone.

Maybe but I kind of doubt it. The Brewers really don't release guys until the last possible day for the most part.

 

If Betancourt was limited to only playing against LHP that would be huge. He still isn't a good hitter but he is much better against LHP. Punto would have been a nice platoon partner for Betancourt.

We didn't even need a full time player at SS. We just need to limit the damage Betancourt will do with his glove and hitting vs RHP.

[TooLiveBrew]

I have been saying that all along. He is going to hit and he is doing just that. That average is getting up now to around where I expect him to be (.270-.280)

 

A slash line of .259/.284/.321/.605 is so incredibly easy to replace. This guy may not deserve the wrath of 10,000 BF.net suns, but he absolutely does suck.

[trwi7]

Reteria is 36 and played a total of 68 games last season.

 

And 124 the year before. Just because they had a better option in Uribe doesn't mean Renteria sucks.

 

Cabrera is one year older, has a high water mark of 123 games in the last three seasons.

 

Huh?

 

2006 - 153

2007 - 155

2008 - 161

2009 - 160

2010 - 123

 

So yeah, 150+ games four of the last five full seasons.

 

In that season managed 303 OBP and a 657 OPS.

 

Neither I or anybody else is saying he's better offensively than Betancourt. They both suck offensively, Cabrera is superior defensively however and could have been had at the gigantic cost of $1 million.

[RobDeer 45]

Having Punto as a backup backup is one thing, I'd be cool with that. But if you actually think you would want him in there at SS on a regular basis you are kidding yourself. Yes he's a switch hitter but that means nothing because he's terrible from both sides. We'd be scratching our eyes out right now if we were going with him and counsell!

[Baldkin]

Yes, the decision to keep Almonte instead of Cruz may come back to bite the 'Crew in the tail. Also, as for the "baseless dislike" for Betancourt.... well, considering he's been named the worst every day player in baseball 3 years running, I'm not sure how the dislike can be "baseless".

Named by who? A couple of bloggers who worship UZR?

 

Pretty sure a Brewers relief pitcher was a hell of a lot worse last year than any SS in all of baseball.

You asked....

Lets start with Rob Neyer

We can follow that up with Joe Posnanski and how about the guys over at upconfurtherreview or maybe you're a Keith Law fan? Or maybe Posnanski again? Or maybe that his defense, amongst SS's got the lowest rating on the fans scouting reports?