Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 1)

[strawbossisevil]

The worst defensive regular SS in baseball usually only costs the team 10 runs or so on the year. To be the worst SS in baseball all you have to do is miss 1 or 2 plays a week that most SS would make. I think Yuni is pretty close to doing that this year though he has made up for it a little bit by not making any errors yet,

Which you could have seen coming, considering he has over the past few years he hasn't been someone who commits a high amount of errors.

I think you guys are overestimating how bad the worst regular SS in baseball is. He likely won't be the worst this year though because Starlin Castro is in the league and he is so bad he gets hit in the face by throws right to him.

But that is just it, you said that the difference between an average and largely below average is quite small. Yet the ongoing rants after every perceivable play he doesn't make give the impression that it is rather large. Can you not accept, just possibly, that many on here have gone overboard in the substance of their criticism?

The worst defensive full time SS in baseball between 2008 and 2011 is Betancourt at -38 UZR. The second worse is Bartlett at -14 so the 2nd worst is costing his team less than 5 runs per year.

 

Sure there are part time fill in type SS that are worse but I don't think many really count that type of player in this type of discussion.

How big of a pool is there of guys that have been full time starters at SS for the past three seasons? I would think a combination of injuries/lack of talent/retirement/position changes/trades/position battles etc. would make that list rather short. I don't think anyone has said that his defense is a negative. My main arguments are 1) people are going wildly overboard with criticisms of his play and 2) there are no better alternatives, so accept the situation for what it is until a better alternative becomes available. Complaining for complaining's sake is tiring and turns this site into a giant vent thread (something the moderators repeatedly have stated they do not want).

[mkm13]

The worst defensive regular SS in baseball usually only costs the team 10 runs or so on the year. To be the worst SS in baseball all you have to do is miss 1 or 2 plays a week that most SS would make. I think Yuni is pretty close to doing that this year though he has made up for it a little bit by not making any errors yet, I think you guys are overestimating how bad the worst regular SS in baseball is. He likely won't be the worst this year though because Starlin Castro is in the league and he is so bad he gets hit in the face by throws right to him.

 

The worst defensive full time SS in baseball between 2008 and 2011 is Betancourt at -38 UZR. The second worse is Bartlett at -14 so the 2nd worst is costing his team less than 5 runs per year.

 

Sure there are part time fill in type SS that are worse but I don't think many really count that type of player in this type of discussion. I mean Betancourt is no Jayson Nix or Jeff Keppinger, I imagine if we had someone like that at SS he would be removed from the job.

No, you have been exaggerating how bad he is. I do not see anyone here overestimating how bad the worst regular SS in baseball is. I don't think there is a huge difference, and I don't think others do either..which is why people have been responding to your exaggerations. You have been saying he can't get to anything not hit right at him, etc. It is you that is exaggerating. I agree, the worst defensive SS in baseball might miss 1 or 2 balls a week that an average major league SS might get. That is far from how bad you have been painting Yuni. You have been painting him of being basically incapable of doing anything other than an extremely routine play, which is not true.

 

Nobody is saying Betancourt is good, he is not. People are just responding to how extreme people are abusing his ability.

 

 

[TheCrew]

The worst defensive regular SS in baseball usually only costs the team 10 runs or so on the year. To be the worst SS in baseball all you have to do is miss 1 or 2 plays a week that most SS would make. I think Yuni is pretty close to doing that this year though he has made up for it a little bit by not making any errors yet, I think you guys are overestimating how bad the worst regular SS in baseball is. He likely won't be the worst this year though because Starlin Castro is in the league and he is so bad he gets hit in the face by throws right to him.

 

The worst defensive full time SS in baseball between 2008 and 2011 is Betancourt at -38 UZR. The second worse is Bartlett at -14 so the 2nd worst is costing his team less than 5 runs per year.

 

Sure there are part time fill in type SS that are worse but I don't think many really count that type of player in this type of discussion. I mean Betancourt is no Jayson Nix or Jeff Keppinger, I imagine if we had someone like that at SS he would be removed from the job.

In 2011, there are 10 MLB shortstops with a worse UZR so far this season - including the defensive wizard that many thought we should have signed, Brendan Ryan. People put way too much stock in UZR - granted, there isn't much else out there - but UZR definitely has its flaws and should not be held as gospel.

 

Betancourt has not been bad defensively this season - he has been average. There has been nothing in Betancourt's play to warrant the response that he has gotten on these boards. Betancourt made 2 amazing plays in that phillies series - the dp and then in the final game, showed great range and made a great throw on a ball he between short and third........ yet it barely got a mention in here.

[Funketown]

^ I seriously doubt anyone who puts stock in UZR would use two weeks worth of data to say anything meaningful.

[Thurston Fluff]

People often use WAR which uses single season UZR. Which is a level known not to be very accurate. It's also been used to show Yuni can be replaced by pretty much anyone.

 

This is a tidbit from Alex Remington about UZR. It was in a piece about WAR but I think it may be useful since UZR and WAR have been bandied about quite a bit. link

 

In addition, UZR is a useful defensive stat, but it's far from perfect; it frequently contradicts the findings of Plus/Minus, from John Dewan's Fielding Bible, which results from a video analysis of every play made by every defensive player, and there's no easy way to reconcile the contradiction. UZR can show some major fluctuations year to year — Nate McLouth(notes) had a UZR of -13.8 in 2008, then +3.6 in 2009, for example — which resulted in a nearly two-win swing in his defensive WAR. Ultimately, WAR is a terrific shorthand for a player's worth, but it's by no means the final word on a player.

I am far from knowledgeable enough to know his true worth but WAR and UZR are both useless indicators IMHO. One because it's too small a sample the other because it uses those same too small of samples for it's final calculation.

[rluzinski]

^ I seriously doubt anyone who puts stock in UZR would use two weeks worth of data to say anything meaningful.

Yes, and that has been pointed out already a number of times. If someone is putting ANY stock on UZR numbers so far, I agree that it is too much.

[RockCoCougars]

At this point, I can definitely say that Betancourt is an upgrade over 2010 Escobar both in the field and at the plate. That's not saying much, but based on the way Alcides is stinking up the joint at the plate this season, he's looking more and more like a bust in waiting. No doubt that he would have been a black hole at the plate this season- at least Yuni generally puts decent wood on the ball. I think his defensive acumen, or lack thereof is being a little overrated here- more specifically, he almost always makes the plays that he should, I've seen much worse out there- including Escobar last year.

[Ennder]

I am far from knowledgeable enough to know his true worth but WAR and UZR are both useless indicators IMHO. One because it's too small a sample the other because it uses those same too small of samples for it's final calculation.

 

Which is why you look at BIZ as well which says Betancourt is the worst defensive regular SS in baseball over the past 3 years, or you use the fan scouting project which says Betancourt is the worst defensive regular SS in baseball over the past 3 years.

 

Now instead of even arguing how Betancourt has been apparently the attack is on the intent of what people are saying so I guess this is going absolutely nowhere. Yes I obviously meant that Betancourt literally can't make a play unless the ball is hit right at him and doesn't take more than 3 hops, there is no way I could mean hit right at him as in the ball was hit right where any player can make the play, not like that is a very common way to describe defense. The reality is the plays Betancourt have made this year are almost all plays that 99% of regular SS make as well, he has made maybe 1 or 2 really good play and he has let a number of balls get by him that a lot of SS can get to. Argue in circles all you want but at the end of the year he'll likely cost the team 1 win with his defense and his offense is pretty close to replacement level. To this day there are Mariner fans who argue with Dave Cameron saying he wasn't a bad SS, just because he doesn't kick the ball around and throw it in the stands doesn't mean he is any good.

[TheCrew]

Absolutely any statistic should be taken with a grain of salt when it is a small sample size - do I think Yuni is going to continue to play better defense in 2011 then Brendan Ryan? Absolutely not, but my point was that you can twist numbers a lot of ways and can say almost anything you want with them.

 

I can also pull out quotes from players/analysts/etc. that praiser Yuni - here is one from Dave Cameron (uss Mariner and Fangraphs): http://www.tangotiger.net...g/scout2006_winners.html

In that article he praises Yuni's defense and even goes so far to call him the Cuban Cannon.

Per wikipedia, in 2006 he was voted one of the best fielding shortstops in the game in 2006.

Ex teammates have also had good things to say about Yuni.............

 

I think UZR is useful and will be even more so in the future but it's drastically overvalued at this point. It's in its infancy and is still being modified....... All that said, I'm by no means a Yuni fan and I've probably come out of this looking like one - but going off what I've seen (rather than what some flawed defensive metrics have told me about Yuni's defense over the past few seasons) and I've been pretty darn pleased with Yuni. If he can continue to play like he has and the brewers don't reach the playoffs, it won't be because of him.

[rluzinski]

I think it is worth noting that even a terrible major league SS is going to be a decent defender overall. SS is a difficult position, compared to say 1B, LF or RF. Hell, Bentancourt probably projects to be an above average corner outfielder.

[The Truth]

I think it is worth noting that even a terrible major league SS is going to be a decent defender overall. SS is a difficult position, compared to say 1B, LF or RF. Hell, Bentancourt probably projects to be an above average corner outfielder.

Exactly true, which was all the more reason to keep Luis Cruz over Almonte or Reed, as Cruz could easily play corner outfield, but I digress

[TheCrew07]

Listen, I've been the first one to beat on advanced defensive metrics and argue about the validity of certain metrics with Ennder.

 

That being said, Betancourt doesn't pass any defensive test. You can tell by watching the game that he has horrible range, every metric says he has horrible range, and all of the scouts say he has horrible range. He makes the plays he can get to, but he simply doesn't get to enough balls in play to be considered average by any measure.

 

He has enough history established where we can be certain he's not going to improve, while young players like Escobar still have the ability to take significant steps forward, not to mention Bentancourt isn't the even close to the athlete that Schroeder claims him to be. It's not like he has Gomez upside where if he harnesses his physical gifts he's talented enough to be in the top 5 players at his position.

 

There is literally nothing to like about Betancourt except for limited power from the SS position, he's not a good baseball player. If you're tired of people of bagging on him fine... I understand that. Howerver, he's a bad MLB player, and random arguments to the contrary won't change that, no matter how they are spun.

[RockCoCougars]

So honestly, who would people rather have out at short this season for the Brewers- Escobar or Betancourt? Don't even factor the Greinke trade into the equation. Escobar has been almost an automatic out this season, I've admitedly seen him play very little this season, but the stats seem to indicate that his fielding has improved from last season. Yes, he has upside, but the guy is going to be 25 years old, Hardy was an all star at this age. Everyone likes to bag on Gomez, but I've seen much more out of him than I've seen over Escobar and he's only a year or so older.

[rluzinski]

I have never been a big fan of Escobar but I would take him no question. The scouts say he is a talented defender, so he can develop into a bad offensive player (as a opposed to terrible) and still be more valuable than Betancourt.

 

That said, I don't even compare the two, since my beef has always been playing Betancourt over any ol' defensive specialist.

[danzig6767]

Really surprises me that Hardy got knocked on his defense on this board and Yuni is being defended because Hardy was a much better defensive SS than Betancourt is.

I don't see anyone that is defending him calling his defense good (or if there is, it is a very small amount). The people that are defending him know he is not good defensively, but are responding to the people who are exaggerating how bad he is and being unreasonable about it. The level at which people were getting on Hardy does not even come close to what people are saying about Betancourt.

 

In watching him, Yuni has made a few plays going to his right where i remember thinking wow, i never thought he'd have been capable of getting to that ball off the bat given how slow of foot he often looks and he does have a solid to good arm. It's going to his left up the middle where multiple balls have not only got past him where i think a quality SS at least gets a glove on the ball, Yuni didn't even get close to the ball on a few. A couple weren't even hit that hard and i remember thinking wow, how did he not at least prevent the ball from getting into the outfield? Each were balls hit to the left of him.

 

Part of the problem seems to be not just that he's slow of foot, he also doesn't seem very flexible. When say a grounder is hit up the middle on a tough play for the shortstop, that guy not only has to have the agility to get to where the baseball is, that guy also has to be able to in one motion get his body stretched down to the ball as he's moving. This doesn't look to be something that Betancourt is capable of doing at a level that the more smooth and agile shortstops can do with ease.

 

It seems that Betancourt knows that limitation about himself because on those plays up the middle i mentioned, he looked to have just given up of trying to make a play on the ball as it not overly quickly rolled into centerfield. I forget what game it was, but one of his giving up on the ball really irritated me most because it allowed a runner to score from second when it sure looked like at worst if he had dove for it, the ball would have stayed in the infield and no run scores.

[Invader3K]

That being said, Betancourt doesn't pass any defensive test. You can tell by watching the game that he has horrible range, every metric says he has horrible range, and all of the scouts say he has horrible range. He makes the plays he can get to, but he simply doesn't get to enough balls in play to be considered average by any measure.

I agree with this. It's obvious Betancourt doesn't have good range, just from watching him. Quite frankly, I don't know why teams have allowed him to man that position so long. You either can get to balls quickly, or you really can't. Additionally, he has made some very poor throws to Fielder (which are sometimes exacerbated by Fielder's limited reach). Occasionally he will make a spectacular play, but so will pretty much any player in the league at some point or another during a season.

I think he could be an OK second baseman for some team (obviously not the Brewers). I don't know why he's been used to fill such a premium defensive position for so long.

 

[mkm13]

I don't know why he's been used to fill such a premium defensive position for so long.

There are 2 reasons:

 

1. Because his lack of range which is described by many on here as being "horrible" is exaggerated. It is not good, but it is not nearly as extreme as some on here suggest. For example, the comments of him not being able to get to a ball unless it is hit right at him does not represent reality.

 

2. The talent level at short stop is not as deep as some make it out to be. It appears on here many people think it is easy to find an average SS. It is the most difficult position on the field and not many can do it very well. Every team has below average players on it. He happens to be on the lower end of that.

[Ennder]

I think he could be an OK second baseman for some team (obviously not the Brewers). I don't know why he's been used to fill such a premium defensive position for so long.

 

With Seattle he was still young with upside, with the Royals he was just a filler so they didn't really care. I don't really understand why the Brewers are playing him but I'd imagine he struggles to find a full time job after this contract is over.

[strawbossisevil]

I think he could be an OK second baseman for some team (obviously not the Brewers). I don't know why he's been used to fill such a premium defensive position for so long.

 

With Seattle he was still young with upside, with the Royals he was just a filler so they didn't really care. I don't really understand why the Brewers are playing him but I'd imagine he struggles to find a full time job after this contract is over.

I think it is 100% understandable.

1) He was forced upon us in the Greinke trade.

2) After the trade, there were no better options at SS on the free agent market. The only options were guys in their mid to upper 30s, many who hadn't played a full season of SS in years.

I think some here just can't come to grips that there were few, if any, options that the Brewers had to improve on Betancourt this offseason. It would be one thing if someone hadn't already walked you'all through this. It is another to repeat the same old tired argument after having it explained and continue to call it "something that can't be understood". It is understandable, you just don't want to understand it, because that would mean you couldn't justifying the whining.

[Thurston Fluff]

Exactly true, which was all the more reason to keep Luis Cruz over Almonte or Reed, as Cruz could easily play corner outfield, but I digress

 

I was pulling for Cruz early on. Right now Cruz has an OBP around 300 in AAA. I know small sample but he never had very good on base skills in the minors and doesn't have enough power or defense to make up for that. What exactly is it that makes people, myself included in spring, to think he can indeed be even as good as Yuni? Personally I think we tend to think it's derived from the term replacement level. It's used as some sort of cut off line where, once you're below it, anyone can do as well. Player X is replacement level so lets just plug player Y in there and he'll give you the same production. It means get someone better ASAP not anyone can do as well.

 

Not bagging on the concept of replacement player just that maybe we misuse it sometimes. I agree replacement level players need to be replaced. However if there are no others above replacement you can actually get worse players if you just decide to get rid of what you have without viable alternatives. I know many called it early and thought there were legitimate options but I think the Brewers had to take him or not get Greinke. After that they had the choice to just cut him or keep him. Given all the alternatives have their warts why waste the money for the same production? Yes he sucks. We all know that. The only questions are is he as bad as we thought and how much worse could it be there? Some think he is and it can't get worse. I say remember Chris Barnwell.

[trwi7]

2) After the trade, there were no better options at SS on the free agent market. The only options were guys in their mid to upper 30s, many who hadn't played a full season of SS in years.

Edgar Renteria, Orlando Cabrera and Nick Punto were all on the free agent market and all were better options.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

Reteria is 36 and played a total of 68 games last season. Cabrera is one year older, has a high water mark of 123 games in the last three seasons. In that season managed 303 OBP and a 657 OPS. His numbers are worse this season. Punto is often injured and is so again his high water mark for the last four years in 125 games. That year his OBP was .337 and OPSed .621. Neither of the last two are bad for someone who is stellar defensively and stays healthy. They are neither. Punto is more of a third baseman than SS and only played a handful of games there ever and Renteria is well past his prime.

Anyone of them can be considered as viable an option as Yuni. None of them appears to be significantly better. If Yuni had to be taken none of them certainly are so much better that it makes sense to pay Yuni not to be here and one of the others as well.

[TheCrew]

Janish is playing far more for Cincy then Renteria - and if your into the whole uzr thing, his uzr/150 right now is sitting at -46.5 for this season....... would be a big downgrade at ss and really nothing more than a name upgrade.

 

Cabrera is playing 2b this season, not short and he also had negative uzr values last season when he did play SS - again, only upgrade here is the name.

 

Punto would be an upgrade defensively but he isn't much of a hitter...... I would have liked him as a reserve over a guy like Kotsay, that's for sure.

 

There isn't a clear cut upgrade out there after the Greinke trade......... I'd understand all the griping if there was or if Betancourt had actually played bad thus far, outside of having poor range can anyone really say that Betancourt has played poorly? For a guy being billed as the worst major leaguer coming into Mil., I was pretty darn worried myself - but really, he has been fine. Not great nor bad - middle of the road, which is fine considering it brought us Greinke.

 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but can I get some specific examples of Betancourts terrible defense thus far? Just would like to go back and watch again on mlb.tv - maybe it'll change my opinion on his defense thus far this season, but it just hasn't seemed bad to me thus far.

[RockCoCougars]

His name keeps coming up, so I have to ask..... honestly, why do people like Nick Punto so much? He's a very poor man's Counsell. He can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag, and his defense at shortstop is average at best. Why would you waste a roster spot on someone like him when you already have Counsell?

[Ennder]

Punto is an above average defense SS, he would be an upgrade over Betancourt and would have fit ok in a platoon with Counsell but he hasn't played a full season at SS so who knows if he could hold up or not. Renteria and Cabrera aren't really full time SS at this point either, not sure they would be worth it. I guess I get why we went with Betancourt but I would have been working to trade for just about anything to upgrade the position during the off-season.