We can be happy with 6-5 for now, but a few guys in this lineup are struggling...

[Schlitz001]

Please tell me that is a joke about Lucroy hitting #2. A catcher does not hit #2 - too much else on his mind.

Well I can't argue with sound logic this this.

Especially when the proposed solution is to bat McGehee, a guy who drove in 100 runs last year, in the 8th spot.

Anyone who quotes RBIs is a joke in my book. RBIs is the most worthless stat in baseball. Have guys on ahead of you and you are bound to get RBIs.

Welcome to Brewerfan.net, Brian. You make a fair point about RBIs not being a good measure of a player, but in your first post you seem to be judging McGehee on only his 38 PA for the year. It is important to look at a players overall performance over a long period of time to make a judgement on what type of hitter he is and make a reasonable prediction on his future production. On top of that, 11 games is a small sample to judge a team based on wins and losses. Specifically 2 of the games were lost on bad performaces by the bullpen. The Brewers could just as easily be 8-3 right now with the same offensive production and this thread would probably not have been started.

 

The most important thing, as others have said, is to get the starters back and healthy. Almost this identical lineup was the 2nd or 3rd best offense last year in the NL and it has that same potential for this year, and maybe a slight improvement with Nyjer Morgan and Yuni instead of Escobar.

[Brian002100]

Especially when the proposed solution is to bat McGehee, a guy who drove in 100 runs last year, in the 8th spot.

Anyone who quotes RBIs is a joke in my book. RBIs is the most worthless stat in baseball. Have guys on ahead of you and you are bound to get RBIs.

Welcome to Brewerfan.net, Brian. You make a fair point about RBIs not being a good measure of a player, but in your first post you seem to be judging McGehee on only his 38 PA for the year. It is important to look at a players overall performance over a long period of time to make a judgement on what type of hitter he is and make a reasonable prediction on his future production. On top of that, 11 games is a small sample to judge a team based on wins and losses. Specifically 2 of the games were lost on bad performaces by the bullpen. The Brewers could just as easily be 8-3 right now with the same offensive production and this thread would probably not have been started.

 

The most important thing, as others have said, is to get the starters back and healthy. Almost this identical lineup was the 2nd or 3rd best offense last year in the NL and it has that same potential for this year, and maybe a slight improvement with Nyjer Morgan and Yuni instead of Escobar.

I have followed the posts for many years, but just started posting. How did people not see this coming with McGehee? If he turns it around, I will eat crow, but this is typically 27-29 year old peak followed by downfall. I hope he proves me wrong, but stats, small sample size or not, speak for themselves.

[PKBadger]

Please tell me that is a joke about Lucroy hitting #2. A catcher does not hit #2 - too much else on his mind.

Well I can't argue with sound logic this this.

Especially when the proposed solution is to bat McGehee, a guy who drove in 100 runs last year, in the 8th spot.

Anyone who quotes RBIs is a joke in my book. RBIs is the most worthless stat in baseball. Have guys on ahead of you and you are bound to get RBIs.

Fine. Then it's stupid to bat a guy with a 116 OPS+ in the 8th spot.

[jjkoestler]

McGehee - OPS of .578 for a #5 hitter is a joke. Also could be an all-time low for that position.

It has been 11 games. Relax

 

Casey is having a historical season as a pinch hitter. 1.000/4.000/5.000. We should probably just have him come off the bench.

[And That]

How did people not see this coming with McGehee?

That he'd have a stretch of 40 bad PAs at some point in time? Not sure who wouldn't have seen that coming.

 

Brewers start 0-4: SEASON OVER

McGehee struggles in first 11 games of the season: HE SUCKS

Brewers offense is good: IT CAN'T CONTINUE

 

WORDS!!!

[danzig6767]

This is the perfect example of small sample size being brought out. When you have good pitching you only need a few guys to be hitting and the other guys at least doing the little things correct. Like Gomez did tonight with just a simple sac fly. The key to the season is pitching and different guys will get hot at different times. I agree that Morgan will probably play more than Gomez at some point once Hart comes back but he serves a purpose on this team. This team has all the components and I cannot wait until Hart and Greinke get back somewhere in the next couple weeks.

This is a true "homer" post. Look at the stats man...if this pitching holds up...World Champs for the Crew!, but I am trying to be realistic. How does Gomez serve a purpose...as a 9th inning defensive replacement?

Gomez is a very good defensive CF, it's not his fault that the manager for some truly baffling reason has continued to bat him 2nd in the order. Until Hart gets back, the problem could easily be solved by playing Morgan in RF whenever a RH pitcher starts and bat Morgan 2nd with Gomez 8th.

 

Then once Hart gets back, platoon Morgan and Gomez in CF because Nyger really struggles vs lefties. When Morgan plays, i'd be fine with either Morgan or Hart batting 2nd. If it's Morgan, we have Hart and McGehee following Prince. Then when a lefty starts, put Hart in the two hole and hit Gomez 8th. If Roenicke doesn't want to flip around the two hole spot, simply bat Hart there and just platoon Morgan/Gomez.

 

Either way, once Hart gets back, it will end Roenicke's fascination with watching Kotsay weakly ground out over and over. McGehee will eventually start to hit. Roenicke i'm assuming will have to soon end this foolishness of batting Gomez 2nd. Our offense will be productive and be a team strength.

[PrinceEatMeat]

How did people not see this coming with McGehee?

That he'd have a stretch of 40 bad PAs at some point in time? Not sure who wouldn't have seen that coming.

 

Brewers start 0-4: SEASON OVER

McGehee struggles in first 11 games of the season: HE SUCKS

Brewers offense is good: IT CAN'T CONTINUE

 

WORDS!!!

Yeah, there's always gonna be people who overreact about everything. There's a reason to say that guys like Kotsay, Gomez, and Betancourt suck, because they came in being terrible, and we expected it. Guys like McGehee have proven they can hit, and deserve a bigger sample that 40 PA's. I think more of the reason the other 3 I mentioned are criticized is because we have Morgan and Counsell sitting on the bench not getting starts they should be getting. I think people will calm down once Hart returns, and Morgan starts platooning with Gomez in CF. The weaknesses in out lineup will be more masked then, because we won't have 3-4 bad hitters in the lineup at once. If we just have Betancourt in there, it won't be as big of a deal if we have Morgan and Hart in there. We'll be fine, I'm not worried at all. McGehee will snap out of it, all players have slumps. Roenicke will soon realize that Gomez sucks, and when Hart comes back Kotsay will be on the bench. Betancourt will get his starts, because Counsell can't play regularly. We will probably see Counsell get more than 1 start a week eventually, but like I said before, we won't notice Betancourt as much when Hart and Morgan are in there and McGehee is hitting again.

[GormanHarvey]

Thank you for being a voice of reason, danzig.

[PrinceEatMeat]

This is the perfect example of small sample size being brought out. When you have good pitching you only need a few guys to be hitting and the other guys at least doing the little things correct. Like Gomez did tonight with just a simple sac fly. The key to the season is pitching and different guys will get hot at different times. I agree that Morgan will probably play more than Gomez at some point once Hart comes back but he serves a purpose on this team. This team has all the components and I cannot wait until Hart and Greinke get back somewhere in the next couple weeks.

This is a true "homer" post. Look at the stats man...if this pitching holds up...World Champs for the Crew!, but I am trying to be realistic. How does Gomez serve a purpose...as a 9th inning defensive replacement?

Gomez is a very good defensive CF, it's not his fault that the manager for some truly baffling reason has continued to bat him 2nd in the order. Until Hart gets back, the problem could easily be solved by playing Morgan in RF whenever a RH pitcher starts and bat Morgan 2nd with Gomez 8th.

 

Then once Hart gets back, platoon Morgan and Gomez in CF because Nyger really struggles vs lefties. When Morgan plays, i'd be fine with either Morgan or Hart batting 2nd. If it's Morgan, we have Hart and McGehee following Prince. Then when a lefty starts, put Hart in the two hole and hit Gomez 8th. If Roenicke doesn't want to flip around the two hole spot, simply bat Hart there and just platoon Morgan/Gomez.

 

Either way, once Hart gets back, it will end Roenicke's fascination with watching Kotsay weakly ground out over and over. McGehee will eventually start to hit. Roenicke i'm assuming will have to soon end this foolishness of batting Gomez 2nd. Our offense will be productive and be a team strength.

Totally agree. I really don't see why Morgan isn't playing over Kotsay. That's the part that really irritates me. Gomez should play over Kotsay for defensive purposes, and he shouldn't hit 2nd. Like we've both said though, when Hart comes back our problems will be solved pretty quickly.

[COBrewerfan]

This is the perfect example of small sample size being brought out. When you have good pitching you only need a few guys to be hitting and the other guys at least doing the little things correct. Like Gomez did tonight with just a simple sac fly. The key to the season is pitching and different guys will get hot at different times. I agree that Morgan will probably play more than Gomez at some point once Hart comes back but he serves a purpose on this team. This team has all the components and I cannot wait until Hart and Greinke get back somewhere in the next couple weeks.

This is a true "homer" post. Look at the stats man...if this pitching holds up...World Champs for the Crew!, but I am trying to be realistic. How does Gomez serve a purpose...as a 9th inning defensive replacement?

 

Homer? Saying good pitching wins games is just common sense. The pitching won't always be great but over the course of a season it will be consistently better. And Gomez is more than a defensive replacement. There are teams with guys worse than him starting. It's just that people have grown to hate Gomez and point out everything he does wrong and are all over him everygame. He can go 2 for 4 and people will complain he flew out on a first pitch. He may not be an elite player but he is far from useless. As was said above, he would be much better suited in the 8th slot and having Morgan hit 2nd for the next couple weeks until Hart returns. But he is nowhere near as bad as most would like to think.

[Brian002100]

This is the perfect example of small sample size being brought out. When you have good pitching you only need a few guys to be hitting and the other guys at least doing the little things correct. Like Gomez did tonight with just a simple sac fly. The key to the season is pitching and different guys will get hot at different times. I agree that Morgan will probably play more than Gomez at some point once Hart comes back but he serves a purpose on this team. This team has all the components and I cannot wait until Hart and Greinke get back somewhere in the next couple weeks.

This is a true "homer" post. Look at the stats man...if this pitching holds up...World Champs for the Crew!, but I am trying to be realistic. How does Gomez serve a purpose...as a 9th inning defensive replacement?

 

Homer? Saying good pitching wins games is just common sense. The pitching won't always be great but over the course of a season it will be consistently better. And Gomez is more than a defensive replacement. There are teams with guys worse than him starting. It's just that people have grown to hate Gomez and point out everything he does wrong and are all over him everygame. He can go 2 for 4 and people will complain he flew out on a first pitch. He may not be an elite player but he is far from useless. As was said above, he would be much better suited in the 8th slot and having Morgan hit 2nd for the next couple weeks until Hart returns. But he is nowhere near as bad as most would like to think.

Once you show one stat proving that Gomez is more than useless I will believe it.

[danzig6767]

How did people not see this coming with McGehee?

That he'd have a stretch of 40 bad PAs at some point in time? Not sure who wouldn't have seen that coming.

 

Brewers start 0-4: SEASON OVER

McGehee struggles in first 11 games of the season: HE SUCKS

Brewers offense is good: IT CAN'T CONTINUE

 

WORDS!!!

Yeah, there's always gonna be people who overreact about everything. There's a reason to say that guys like Kotsay, Gomez, and Betancourt suck, because they came in being terrible, and we expected it. Guys like McGehee have proven they can hit, and deserve a bigger sample that 40 PA's. I think more of the reason the other 3 I mentioned are criticized is because we have Morgan and Counsell sitting on the bench not getting starts they should be getting. I think people will calm down once Hart returns, and Morgan starts platooning with Gomez in CF. The weaknesses in out lineup will be more masked then, because we won't have 3-4 bad hitters in the lineup at once. If we just have Betancourt in there, it won't be as big of a deal if we have Morgan and Hart in there. We'll be fine, I'm not worried at all. McGehee will snap out of it, all players have slumps. Roenicke will soon realize that Gomez sucks, and when Hart comes back Kotsay will be on the bench. Betancourt will get his starts, because Counsell can't play regularly. We will probably see Counsell get more than 1 start a week eventually, but like I said before, we won't notice Betancourt as much when Hart and Morgan are in there and McGehee is hitting again.

Plus, while Betancourt is a complete out machine, he at least offers some pop for a shortstop. He's not an Adam Everett type of out machine SS who either makes outs or only hit singles. Yuni can drive the ball some as he did tonight. I have a bigger issue with his lack of range at shortstop than i have with his hitting because quite a few shortstops in baseball are bad or very mediocre hitters. It's just that not many or any offer his mix of bad hitting and terrible defense.

[homer]

I'm not sold on Morgan as an every day player. I'd rather he platoon and only face righties (which will still give him the bulk of the starts).

[PrinceEatMeat]

That he'd have a stretch of 40 bad PAs at some point in time? Not sure who wouldn't have seen that coming.

 

Brewers start 0-4: SEASON OVER

McGehee struggles in first 11 games of the season: HE SUCKS

Brewers offense is good: IT CAN'T CONTINUE

 

WORDS!!!

Yeah, there's always gonna be people who overreact about everything. There's a reason to say that guys like Kotsay, Gomez, and Betancourt suck, because they came in being terrible, and we expected it. Guys like McGehee have proven they can hit, and deserve a bigger sample that 40 PA's. I think more of the reason the other 3 I mentioned are criticized is because we have Morgan and Counsell sitting on the bench not getting starts they should be getting. I think people will calm down once Hart returns, and Morgan starts platooning with Gomez in CF. The weaknesses in out lineup will be more masked then, because we won't have 3-4 bad hitters in the lineup at once. If we just have Betancourt in there, it won't be as big of a deal if we have Morgan and Hart in there. We'll be fine, I'm not worried at all. McGehee will snap out of it, all players have slumps. Roenicke will soon realize that Gomez sucks, and when Hart comes back Kotsay will be on the bench. Betancourt will get his starts, because Counsell can't play regularly. We will probably see Counsell get more than 1 start a week eventually, but like I said before, we won't notice Betancourt as much when Hart and Morgan are in there and McGehee is hitting again.

Plus, while Betancourt is a complete out machine, he at least offers some pop for a shortstop. He's not an Adam Everett type of out machine SS who either makes outs or only hit singles. Yuni can drive the ball some as he did tonight. I have a bigger issue with his lack of range at shortstop than i have with his hitting because quite a few shortstops in baseball are bad or very mediocre hitters. It's just that not many or any offer his mix of bad hitting and terrible defense.

Yeah, I agree. His lack of range infuriates me at times. His hitting I can deal with more. He'll at least hit some homers for us this year. He's seems to be the kind of guy who will have a couple games where he gets no hits, and then have a big game. That will work once we are at full strength. Also, as far as Morgan goes. Not sure who ever said he should be an everyday player. He is a clear platoon candidate, who should only play against righties.

[The Truth]

After the first inning, batting order really means nothing.

I see that statement made frequently, and I really have to disagree. A team's best hitters bat #3 & #4. You want high OBP fast runners batting in the 2 spots ahead of them. It is only logical. Ballplayers with speed who can get on 1st or 2nd ahead of Braun & Fielder are very valuable. We want players who can score from 1st on a double or score from 2nd on a single

 

So, yes, batting order means plenty, and yes, Gomez has no business batting 2nd. Really Gomez should bat 9th, with the pitcher batting 8th

[danzig6767]

This is a true "homer" post. Look at the stats man...if this pitching holds up...World Champs for the Crew!, but I am trying to be realistic. How does Gomez serve a purpose...as a 9th inning defensive replacement?

 

Homer? Saying good pitching wins games is just common sense. The pitching won't always be great but over the course of a season it will be consistently better. And Gomez is more than a defensive replacement. There are teams with guys worse than him starting. It's just that people have grown to hate Gomez and point out everything he does wrong and are all over him everygame. He can go 2 for 4 and people will complain he flew out on a first pitch. He may not be an elite player but he is far from useless. As was said above, he would be much better suited in the 8th slot and having Morgan hit 2nd for the next couple weeks until Hart returns. But he is nowhere near as bad as most would like to think.

Once you show one stat proving that Gomez is more than useless I will believe it.

If you've watch baseball long enough and don't see the real value in having a good defensive CF, i don't know what anyone can say to you. Gomez plays almost entirely because of his defensive abilities. Obviously, it would be more ideal to have a good defensive CF that can also hit good, but there aren't a ton of those guys and if you don't have one, that can't be acquired easily or cheaply.

 

Since Melvin smartly traded for Morgan, we now have two good defensive CF on the roster and thus shouldn't be forced to play him every day. So once Hart comes back, if Roenicke isn't a mix of stubborn and stupid, he can platoon Morgan/Gomez in CF which allows the team to have a good defensive CF out there each night and mitigates slightly that Nyger struggles so bad vs lefties as evidenced by his career .569 OS vs lefties and .757 OPS vs righties. Granted, Gomez hits like crap regardless of what hand a pitcher throws with, but it's a little better than Morgan vs lefties while keeping Gomez sharp in the field in case Morgan got hurt.

[strawbossisevil]

Once you show one stat proving that Gomez is more than useless I will believe it.

Career UZR/150 of 14.5. There you go, one stat that shows Carlos Gomez is more than useless...I guess you have to believe in him now.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4881&position=OF

The guy is an elite defensive player at a premium defensive position which makes him a valuable player to have. If all he ever did was hit, then yes, he is worthless. But for what he lacks in offense, he compensates for in defense. He'll never be an all star caliber player, even with the elite defense factored in. But he probably has the value of an average Major League CF all things considered.

[cwolf2012]

I don't like having pointing this out, but it's Nyjer Morgan with a 'j.' Please get it right.

 

Secondly, as said by multiple people, small sample size is killing your argument here. If Casey continues at this rate for 2 months, then we may have something to go on, but we're sitting with a guy who has OPS'd over .800 for 2 seasons now. The guy is not a bad hitter, and judging him based on 41 PA as a terrible hitter is incredibly hasty.

 

Gomez is not a 2 hitter, he's a 9 hitter who plays great D in a premium position. Your beef is with RR in this situation. Morgan is a .350 OBP hitter against RHP and is absolutely raking right now. We've got our best 3 hitters hitting well and a couple other guys on the DL who hit better than their alternatives. This team is A-OK with offense.

 

Have a couple Miller Lites and relax, Brian.

[danzig6767]

I'm not sold on Morgan as an every day player. I'd rather he platoon and only face righties (which will still give him the bulk of the starts).

I really want to like Roenicke given that he seems to have struck a chord with the players. We are only 11 games into the season so i want to avoid making many sweeping generalizations as to how he'll do things over the course of the season, but given that he's continued batting Gomez 2nd, it does make me at least question though how much credence he puts into stats, particularly OBP. If that is the case, it could make him be one of those type of managers who simply doesn't believe in fairly strict platoons even if the numbers say it makes the most logical sense, especially given that both guys provide plenty of speed/range in CF. Both can also bunt and run the bases, things Roenicke seems to value a lot. In fact, they are very similar players except for that Morgan gets on base significantly better and Gomez has a much better arm in CF.

 

So if i had to bet, once Hart gets back or even say a month after that, we won't see a fairly strict Morgan/Gomez platoon in CF. Instead, we'll see Roenicke filling the CF spot from night to night more on his gut feelings, meaning Gomez seeing more starts vs righthanders than should really happen.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think the reason Gomez is seeing a lot of playing time is because he played well in ST and Roenicke is giving him a fair shot. Do I agree with this? No I don't. It just seems to me that Roenicke is reluctant to give up on Gomez this quickly. Eventually, once Gomez keeps playing the way he always will, Roenicke will come to his senses and platoon him and Morgan in CF. I remember Roenicke saying in ST that the only reason he's batting Gomez 2nd is because Hart is hurt. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hart hitting there, especially when Gomez is in the lineup. I do think we'll end up seeing Morgan hitting 2nd and Hart hitting 6th though.

[DHonks]

McGehee has been so huge for us the last two years that it makes sense to wait for him to come around...no worries there. Betancourt has been fine offensively with hitting balls hard, just right at them. I think we all want him to see more pitches as well.

[jjkoestler]

Gomez is not worthless.

WAR

2008: 2.4

2009: .6

2010: 1.1

[danzig6767]

I think the reason Gomez is seeing a lot of playing time is because he played well in ST and Roenicke is giving him a fair shot. Do I agree with this? No I don't. It just seems to me that Roenicke is reluctant to give up on Gomez this quickly.

Gomez should be playing, we need his defense so i don't have an issue with his playing time if the choice is between him and Kotsay. It is a bit troubling though that Roenicke has been around baseball as long as he has, yet he keeps batting Gomez 2nd in front of arguably the best 3-4 tandem in the league based almost entirely on a .300 spring batting average where he refused to walk as he's always refused to do. That sounds something like Davey Lopes would do.

 

Oh well, Hart will be back soon and that certainly should end the Gomez batting 2nd head scratcher. It does though make me think/wonder that Roenicke simply isn't like some managers who are more stat based in their thinking over gut feelings, and those type of managers wouldn't need to even think twice about a strict platoon of Morgan and Gomez.

[RightFieldCoder]

In an 11 game streak from June 4 to June 15 last year, McGehee had a .521 OPS last year (if my quick math is right). I'm sure he (and everyone else in baseball) has had bad streaks like this.

 

This team is going exactly like it was designed. Good pitching keeps runs off the boards. There's enough offense that a couple of guys can be hurt and in slumps and we're stilling putting runs on the boards. At some point, Braun and Prince will go through a bad stretch. McGehee will be out of his funk and it will be his turn to carry the offense for a week. As much as I wanted to trade him, I'm not worried about McGehee.

[dlk9s]

Brian, you need more practice posting on internet forums.

 

You come in here and start a rather pointless thread, stating things that are completely obvious (Gomez and McGehee have struggled at the plate), yet are pretty much unimportant right now. Then, as people chime in, you respond with nothing but belligerence. Not quite the tactics I would use, but to each his own, I guess.

 

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