Trade Gomez for SS upgrade

[MJLiverock]

Gomez is still more valuable to the Brewers than what he could bring back in a trade. People can continue to rip our GM for trading Hardy for him but the truth is the Brewers have gotten the better end of the deal thus far.

No, we haven't. Hardy has been much more valuable than Gomez. We didn't need Hardy last year but this year he would be really helpful.

Hardy would be adding negative value to the team right now. If Hardy was on the Brewers right now Counsell would be the everyday SS. Hardy right now is a platoon player because he can not stay healthy.

Exactly. Hardy was hurt for a good portion of last season, playing in just over 100 games and getting 375 PAs. Escobar would have had to be used for a good portion of last season anyway. Hardy would have been getting paid, $5.1MM last season for his 375 PA's and putting up his .320/.394 line.

 

Gomez only managed a .298 OBP which is a difference of about 8 fewer instances of getting on base compared to Hardy but costing the team about $4MM less at $1.1MM vs. $5.1MM in salary. Unless you feel those 8 bases extra non outs were worth $4MM then Gomez was a better option last year. Especially considering it would have meant Jim Edmonds in CF everyday, praying he wouldn't fall apart, to start the year until Cain was ready.

 

That was the biggest reason why Hardy didn't bring much in return, he was going to get $5+MM in arby and it made him expensive.

 

Now in 2011 Hardy is making $5.85MM and is headed for the DL again. Gomez may be expendable now that Morgan is in the fold but he is still $4.3MM cheaper than Hardy, and is actually playing. If Hardy and Gomez play about the same as last year in terms of PA's and OBP which is entirely plausible the whopping 8 non outs doesn't justify an extra $4+MM in salary, although the Brewers could probably afford it.

 

 

[logan82]

nate82[/b]]

logan3825[/b]]

NievesNoNO[/b]]Gomez is still more valuable to the Brewers than what he could bring back in a trade. People can continue to rip our GM for trading Hardy for him but the truth is the Brewers have gotten the better end of the deal thus far.

No, we haven't. Hardy has been much more valuable than Gomez. We didn't need Hardy last year but this year he would be really helpful.

Hardy would be adding negative value to the team right now. If Hardy was on the Brewers right now Counsell would be the everyday SS. Hardy right now is a platoon player because he can not stay healthy.

You only add negative value if you play poorly. You can argue Hardy is less than a full time player because he can't stay healthy but he is far better than just a platoon player. Gomez isn't even a platoon player. He actually hits LHP worse than he hits RHP. His value is all in his glove and baserunning. He subtracts from his value every time he steps to the plate.

 

I never brought salary into the discussion so I think you guys are arguing something different. I believe we traded the better, rarer talent in the deal. We have had 4-5 guys I can think of off the top of my head that would have added more to the Brewers winning than Gomez. If we are talking about money, the trade was a salary dump and nothing more.

 

Luis Cruz/Counsel for the part of the season Hardy is injured and Hardy for the rest is a much, much better situation that what we currently have at SS.

[HiAndTight]

No, we haven't. Hardy has been much more valuable than Gomez. We didn't need Hardy last year but this year he would be really helpful.

Hardy would be adding negative value to the team right now. If Hardy was on the Brewers right now Counsell would be the everyday SS. Hardy right now is a platoon player because he can not stay healthy.

You only add negative value if you play poorly.

Or don't play and cost a lot....

[Hate those Rodents]

If you are injured a lot and make a lot of money, you have negative value. Otherwise you are telling me Dave Riske had positive value to us. He'd have helped us if he was healthy because he was pretty good. But he was hurt a lot and made a lot. So he had negative value.

[MNBrew]

I'm not necessarily for or against Gomez, Betancourt, or Hardy. But in the grand scheme of things, trying to argue which of them is better/more valuable/the better value is sounding a lot like trying to argue about which stale piece of bread you should use in your sandwich.

[logan82]

Yeah well somebody wiped their butt with the stale piece of bread we are stuck with at SS.

[Hate those Rodents]

Our stale piece of bread we can at least eat and survive on. The Hardy piece of bread is broken into too many crumbs to even feed us.

[BREWCREW5]

People need to realize that Hardy is no longer the 07, 08 model. The guy sucks now and cannot stay on the field. The Brewers gave up on him and so did the Twins.

[logan82]

People need to realize that Hardy is no longer the 07, 08 model. The guy sucks now and cannot stay on the field. The Brewers gave up on him and so did the Twins.

He was worth 2 wins last year playing only part of the year. He isn't what he was in 2007-2008 but even half a year of Hardy and half a year of Counsel/other guy is better than Betancourt.

 

 

[COBrewerfan]

Some people will never get over Hardy. But he was a mess for the Twins and now has continued with the O's. These same people are always going to hate Gomez. I love him and while he still has work to do, I love what he brings to the team. I love speed in baseball and I like him, Hart, Weeks, and Morgan in the same lineup. Betancourt has been fine and from what I see, the same people are never going to give Betancourt an ounce of credit or chance to prove himself. Somewhere in a fictional world, they can always make a better lineup by making a trade or picking up a different player. But in a small market you are simply unable to put stud players at every position like everyone always wants. Heck, the Red Sox and Yankees have role guys in their lineups and questionable pitching.

 

We should feel pretty lucky with the team we have. Both sides of the ball, we are pretty solid. I enjoy the bashing of players but choose not to complain and simply cheer for my team instead of constantly finding things I don't like and root against certain guys.

[brettac1]

I guess I don't really care for Gomez, Hardy, or Betancourt. I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

[Warning Track Power]

Gomez is still more valuable to the Brewers than what he could bring back in a trade. People can continue to rip our GM for trading Hardy for him but the truth is the Brewers have gotten the better end of the deal thus far.

The blue part of this I totally agree with. Gomez wouldn't likely bring back a starting SS now. Regardless of your feelings on Hardy, I doubt we could get him or his equivalent straight up for Gomez. That being said, there is no way you deal Gomez because the return would be less than what he brings to the team i.e. timeshare CF & pinch running, solid D as a 4th OF. Plus Gomez seems like a great teammate. As a side, a trade of Gomez would likely mean Almonte and Kotsay are your #4 & #5 OF. Yuck. I love Gomez's hustle and am enamored by his potential but how long can you wait?

 

As for the green part, I totally disagree with you but I am an acknowledged Hardy guy. Injuries are difficult to predict and there is no way you can say that Hardy's injuries in 2010 and 2011 would have occurred had he been in Milwaukee. As for Hardy v. Gomez when the deal was made, I can't argue that we had better coverage at SS (Escobar) than CF (Cameron was a FA) but that still doesn't make this a good trade. Gomez was a toolsy CF who hadn't put it together and a season later still hasn't. Hardy was an injury prone SS, a year removed from hitting .283 at age 25/26. Give me the latter everyday if we are speaking Hardy v. Gomez. Hardy was dealt at the worst possible time and when his value was the lowest.

 

The difficult thing is knowing where we are at today versus where we were when we made the Gomez-Hardy deal, meaning who would have thought we would have traded Escobar a year later. My biggest issue with this past offseason was after Escobar was dealt in December, we still had time to make another deal to acquire another SS instead of rolling with YuBet. Hardy was acquired by the Orioles for a bag of balls and I think we could have very easily matched the package. And even if you aren't a Hardy guy, I think most would rather have had him than YuBet.

[COBrewerfan]

Well consider me as wanting plenty of other people than Hardy at this point. How can you make that argument now after seeing the guy cannot stay healthy? Why would you want him? So we can deal with finding a replacement every time he gets hurt, which is quite often? You can hate Betancourt all you want but don't act like Hardy is just this exceptional hitter either. He had a couple good years where he hit well but he was never elite so lets not act like we lost this stud. Some think Betancourt will put up close to 20hr this year and he only needs to get to 75-80 rbis to get to JJ level. And that is if he is ever on the field. But I am just tired of holding on to the past. He's gone and hurt again. I am excited about the pitching and coule care less about the postion players really. But obviously happy to have the lineup we have. But I keep saying that if the giants could win the world series with their lineup, we have nothing to complain about. It's about the pitching.

[logan82]

Betancourt is such a poor defensive SS that a different SS doesn't need to be a good hitter to be a better alternative at SS.

[Warning Track Power]

COBrewerfan[/b]]

Well consider me as wanting plenty of other people than Hardy at this point. How can you make that argument now after seeing the guy cannot stay healthy? Why would you want him? So we can deal with finding a replacement every time he gets hurt, which is quite often? You can hate Betancourt all you want but don't act like Hardy is just this exceptional hitter either. He had a couple good years where he hit well but he was never elite so lets not act like we lost this stud. Some think Betancourt will put up close to 20hr this year and he only needs to get to 75-80 rbis to get to JJ level. And that is if he is ever on the field. But I am just tired of holding on to the past. He's gone and hurt again. I am excited about the pitching and coule care less about the postion players really. But obviously happy to have the lineup we have. But I keep saying that if the giants could win the world series with their lineup, we have nothing to complain about. It's about the pitching.

My problem isn't so much with YuBet's bat. Betancourt has the potential to put up exactly the kind of numbers JJ did during his prime years. The only thing Betancourt can't do on offense that JJ could, is draw walks. The bigger issue I have is with his lackadaisical defense. JJ was a consistent defender at SS and that is where he separates himself from Betancourt in my opinion.

 

[endaround]

Betancourt doesn't have the ability to put up those numbers. Betancourt might be able to match the numbers Hardy put up that got him demoted. In the year Hardy sucked so bad his wOBA was .292. Betancourt for his career is .296

[logan82]

The only thing Betancourt can't do on offense that JJ could, is draw walks.

 

Don't underestimate that ability. Hardy still put up a .320 OBP last year. I think most people would be ecstatic to see Gomez or Betancourt do that.

[Warning Track Power]

Betancourt doesn't have the ability to put up those numbers. Betancourt might be able to match the numbers Hardy put up that got him demoted. In the year Hardy sucked so bad his wOBA was .292. Betancourt for his career is .296

I was speaking to COB's projection of a YuBet line of 20 HR and 75-80RBIs. I could see him matching that, but those numbers are hollow unless he can learn to get on base better than at a .296 clip, like you said End.

 

 

[JohnBriggs12]

COBrewerfan[/b]]

Well consider me as wanting plenty of other people than Hardy at this point. How can you make that argument now after seeing the guy cannot stay healthy? Why would you want him? So we can deal with finding a replacement every time he gets hurt, which is quite often? You can hate Betancourt all you want but don't act like Hardy is just this exceptional hitter either. He had a couple good years where he hit well but he was never elite so lets not act like we lost this stud. Some think Betancourt will put up close to 20hr this year and he only needs to get to 75-80 rbis to get to JJ level. And that is if he is ever on the field. But I am just tired of holding on to the past. He's gone and hurt again. I am excited about the pitching and coule care less about the postion players really. But obviously happy to have the lineup we have. But I keep saying that if the giants could win the world series with their lineup, we have nothing to complain about. It's about the pitching.

My problem isn't so much with YuBet's bat. Betancourt has the potential to put up exactly the kind of numbers JJ did during his prime years. The only thing Betancourt can't do on offense that JJ could, is draw walks. The bigger issue I have is with his lackadaisical defense. JJ was a consistent defender at SS and that is where he separates himself from Betancourt in my opinion.

Please cite one example of what you consider to be lackadaisical defense that Betancourt has displayed in the first 9 games. I haven't seen any. If you don't dive for a ball you have no chance to get to is that lackadaisical? This is so reminiscent of the stuff said about Belliard when he was a Brewer. Heck a major criticism of the great Hank Aaron when he first came up was that he was lackadaisical on defense because he had such and effortless stride.

 

I'll grant you he has below average range, but he has made the routine play look routine, he's handled a few tricky hops easily and taken some shaky throws from Weeks to record force outs. On balance his defense has been acceptable.

[Warning Track Power]

COBrewerfan[/b]]

Well consider me as wanting plenty of other people than Hardy at this point. How can you make that argument now after seeing the guy cannot stay healthy? Why would you want him? So we can deal with finding a replacement every time he gets hurt, which is quite often? You can hate Betancourt all you want but don't act like Hardy is just this exceptional hitter either. He had a couple good years where he hit well but he was never elite so lets not act like we lost this stud. Some think Betancourt will put up close to 20hr this year and he only needs to get to 75-80 rbis to get to JJ level. And that is if he is ever on the field. But I am just tired of holding on to the past. He's gone and hurt again. I am excited about the pitching and coule care less about the postion players really. But obviously happy to have the lineup we have. But I keep saying that if the giants could win the world series with their lineup, we have nothing to complain about. It's about the pitching.

My problem isn't so much with YuBet's bat. Betancourt has the potential to put up exactly the kind of numbers JJ did during his prime years. The only thing Betancourt can't do on offense that JJ could, is draw walks. The bigger issue I have is with his lackadaisical defense. JJ was a consistent defender at SS and that is where he separates himself from Betancourt in my opinion.

Please cite one example of what you consider to be lackadaisical defense that Betancourt has displayed in the first 9 games. I haven't seen any. If you don't dive for a ball you have no chance to get to is that lackadaisical? This is so reminiscent of the stuff said about Belliard when he was a Brewer. Heck a major criticism of the great Hank Aaron when he first came up was that he was lackadaisical on defense because he had such and effortless stride.

 

I'll grant you he has below average range, but he has made the routine play look routine, he's handled a few tricky hops easily and taken some shaky throws from Weeks to record force outs. On balance his defense has been acceptable.

 

I don't recall specifically what game it was but I believe it was the last game in Cincinnati. He was playing close to 2nd and literally had to go two steps to his right to back hand a slow roller. He went one step and bent down about halfway and had the ball hit off the glove. That's laziness defined. It may have even been the inning where Wolf gave up the 3 run HR to Phillips as well.

 

I agree. His defense has been acceptable...through 9 games.

[Robideaux]

I forget what game it was, but Betancourt almost got Weeks' legs taken out from under him on a force at second. He really left him out to dry.

[logan82]

I don't recall specifically what game it was but I believe it was the last game in Cincinnati. He was playing close to 2nd and literally had to go two steps to his right to back hand a slow roller. He went one step and bent down about halfway and had the ball hit off the glove. That's laziness defined. It may have even been the inning where Wolf gave up the 3 run HR to Phillips as well.

 

I agree. His defense has been acceptable...through 9 games.

I thought that one hit his feet. He plays defense like he is underwater. Everything is slow.

[hurricanecrush]

I was at the home opener and there was a ball that was hit to the shortstop side of second that Weeks almost got to and Betancourt never even moved on. The ball was a roller, as opposed to a line drive or a one or two hopper, and Weeks had a longer way to go to get to it than Betancourt did. I'm not sure if he was lazy on the play or just didn't read the ball off the bat... but neither option is good.

[NievesNoNO]

Warning Track Power]

NievesNoNO]Gomez is still more valuable to the Brewers than what he could bring back in a trade. People can continue to rip our GM for trading Hardy for him but the truth is the Brewers have gotten the better end of the deal thus far.

As for the green part, I totally disagree with you but I am an acknowledged Hardy guy. Injuries are difficult to predict and there is no way you can say that Hardy's injuries in 2010 and 2011 would have occurred had he been in Milwaukee. As for Hardy v. Gomez when the deal was made, I can't argue that we had better coverage at SS (Escobar) than CF (Cameron was a FA) but that still doesn't make this a good trade. Gomez was a toolsy CF who hadn't put it together and a season later still hasn't. Hardy was an injury prone SS, a year removed from hitting .283 at age 25/26. Give me the latter everyday if we are speaking Hardy v. Gomez. Hardy was dealt at the worst possible time and when his value was the lowest.

 

The difficult thing is knowing where we are at today versus where we were when we made the Gomez-Hardy deal, meaning who would have thought we would have traded Escobar a year later. My biggest issue with this past offseason was after Escobar was dealt in December, we still had time to make another deal to acquire another SS instead of rolling with YuBet. Hardy was acquired by the Orioles for a bag of balls and I think we could have very easily matched the package. And even if you aren't a Hardy guy, I think most would rather have had him than YuBet.

I'm not a Yuni fan and I will agree no matter how you look at him he's still one of the worst shortstops in the game. I think Hardy was underrated when he was here and would much rather have him than a lot of SS in the league. At the time he was traded the Brewers (and many fans) were looking to get Escobar on the field. I think that some are still upset that Hardy didn't bring back the stud pitcher they believed we could've gotten and won't let it go. I'm just of the opinion that we probably got the best of what was available at the time for him. Player for player, Hardy was the better player but he is hurt now and hasn't done anything since he left. People continue to talk about him like he's a top 10 type shortstop.

 

Anyway, I don't think we should or need to deal Gomez to get an upgrade at shortstop. I'll take a stud defense only, no hit type over Betancourt. However, I will say to this point Yuni has held his own so I don't think there's a rush to replace him.

[Hate those Rodents]

I brought up two Guthrie to Mil for Hardy to Bal threads before we dealt him for Gomez. I still think we could have made that trade happen (ironic Baltimore now has both).