Manny Ramirez retires

[davemakovec]

Some of us are saying that PEDs cast doubt on nine of those similar batter scores (excepting Sheffield, who I believe was long-suspected of juicing).

 

The question isn't if he was a great player; he clearly was. The question is how much was due to banned substances.

[chuckiehacks]

I think Manny, along with Pujols are the best pure hitters of my generation (I'm 35). While there probably was significant PED use, I don't think you can debate Manny's raw talent. Like Bonds, he's a guy who probably had HOF talent without PEDs, but chose to use them anyway. Tremendous jags? Yes. Would I vote for them? Yes. Ultimately I think all these guys get in at some point. It will probably involve taking some of the voting power away from the holier-than-thou writers.

[RockCoCougars]

For anyone advocating HOF status for Ramirez, what sabermetric stat has Bill James devised to 'normalize' his career stats? If Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are not in, this cheat who was caught twice red handed certainly is not.

[crewcrazy]

And cheats that doctored the ball, corked bats, and otherwise broke the rules of the game are also in the Hall of Fame.

 

I think it ultimately comes down to how you view the Hall of Fame. If you think it's a reward for a great career and the highest honor in the game, you probably think the PED users should be kept out at all costs. If you think the Hall of Fame is there to chronicle the best players in the history of the game -- now matter how they got there -- then you probably don't care all that much if anyone used PEDs.

 

For what it's worth, I probably fall in the latter group, and think it's pretty ridiculous that Joe Jackson and Pete Rose aren't in considering what they did on the field.

[RockCoCougars]

I think that there is a huge difference between corking a bat or greasing a ball and chemically altering your body to increase muscle mass/twitch speed. If you do this, any of your accomplishments should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't stand cheaters or liars, and juicers are horrible in both aspects. I did get a kick of the ironic description of 'pure hitter' for Ramirez.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think that there is a huge difference between corking a bat or greasing a ball and chemically altering your body to increase muscle mass/twitch speed. If you do this, any of your accomplishments should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't stand cheaters or liars, and juicers are horrible in both aspects. I did get a kick of the ironic description of 'pure hitter' for Ramirez.

Steroids don't make you a Hall of Famer.

 

Exhibit A: Alex Sanchez.

[Baldkin]

I think that there is a huge difference between corking a bat or greasing a ball and chemically altering your body to increase muscle mass/twitch speed. If you do this, any of your accomplishments should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't stand cheaters or liars, and juicers are horrible in both aspects. I did get a kick of the ironic description of 'pure hitter' for Ramirez.

So, what about all the guys who did amphetamines in the 60's - 80's? They were illegal and performance enhancing and weren't against the rules of baseball. Where do you stand on them?

It wasn't steroids that made guys hit 70 home runs, it was a change in the baseball, and the dilution of talent across the league. What steroids did was allow guys to play longer, and stay healthier in many cases.

[Invader3K]

So, what about all the guys who did amphetamines in the 60's - 80's? They were illegal and performance enhancing and weren't against the rules of baseball. Where do you stand on them?

It wasn't steroids that made guys hit 70 home runs, it was a change in the baseball, and the dilution of talent across the league. What steroids did was allow guys to play longer, and stay healthier in many cases.

I'm pretty sure amphetamines weren't illegal in the US until the late '70s or early '80s. Not sure when MLB officially banned them.

[jerichoholicninja]

They were banned when drug testing started or soon afterward.

[Invader3K]

They were banned when drug testing started or soon afterward.

Which, was what? 2006 or so?

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I'll go on the record saying that i'd vote "Heck No" on Bonds, Clemens, A-Roid, Manny, Raffy, etc...

 

You cheat, you should be banned for life IMHO

 

Manny is nothing close to the player that Griffey was

[Flood Pants]

Whether or not players like Manny deserve the hall is a complicated subject, for sure. Personally, I don't buy that PEDs made him the player who he was. PEDs didn't teach him superior plate discipline, nor did they give him the hand-eye coordination to put the bat on the ball the right way. They may have given him extra power and endurance, but the basic skills that make a great hitter a great hitter seem to have less to do with muscle and more to do with instinct and coordination. I think he deserves to be recognized for the talented hitter he was. That being said...

 

PED's have caused a lot of fans to mistrust the game. They've been bad for MLB's public relations. Regardless of whether or not PED use really did change the game on field (there's legitimate debate about that), they've changed the perception of the game in a big way. Therefore, I don't think it's in MLB's best interest to allow Manny into the hall, nor any other player who is linked to PEDs beyond a reasonable doubt.

[bigredrobbo]

Saying Manny Ramirez "retired" from Major League Baseball is a little like saying that Roman Polanski "retired" from making movies in the US.

[brettac1]

I'll certainly miss the guy. He was funny and was an amazing hitter. I was listening to Melvin talk about the lack of interesting characters in the game the other night during the TV broadcast and instantly thought of Manny. Loved watching him and he's as much of an HOF'er as I have ever seen. Awesome.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I disagree with Melvin on the "interesting characters". If ESPN would stop brown-nosing with all the cheats/sleazebags in sports (Tiger, $cam Newton, Manny, Brent, Bonds) there are plenty of good guys (and gals) to cover. Heck, they can even cover our very own Nyger Morgan http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I'll take a 2-1 game over a 10-9 game every day of the week.

[brettac1]

In was while talking about Morgan that he brought that up.

 

I'm not interested in "good guys". I'm interested in guys like Morgan, etc. that aren't.

[RightFieldCoder]

RockCoCougars wrote:

---

If Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are not in, this cheat who was caught twice red handed certainly is not.

Pete Rose and (allegedly) Joe Jackson did not cheat at the game. They bet on baseball. After the Black Sox scandal, a specific rule was put into place defining the punishment for this crime. The punishment was a permanent ban from baseball. (I agree that Jackson got the shaft, but Rose got caught decades after this rule was made) After the PED scandal, a specific rule was put into place defining the punishment for this crime. Various suspensions based on times caught, and then ban. I don't think you can compare the two directly. It's like comparing (in no particular order) not paying a parking ticket and a stabbing. The police are involved in both, both are against the law, but we treat the people who perpetrate them differently.

[djoctagone]

minor league deal with oakland.

[MVP2110]

I really do not get what Billy Beane is doing now a days.

[TooLiveBrew]

I really do not get what Billy Beane is doing now a days.

Because he offered one of the best hitters of the last 50 years a NRI? He's doing what he always does, looking for value while not really spending any money. There's no way this move can hurt the A's.

[MVP2110]

He's doing what he always does, looking for value while not really spending any money. There's no way this move can hurt the A's.

He just spent 36 million dollars on a very unproven player who has only played as high as A or AA depending on where you think the cuban league ranks. He traded young players for Seth Smith and signed Jonny Gomes also. How many veteran OF's do you need when you also have Cespedes and Crisp guarenteed playing time. Manny is just going to take away at bats from young players to try and develop them. Plus he his know to be a cancer among the team. I wouldn't want him around my young players at all.

[RockCoCougars]

I actually think this is an OK move. Odds are that Ramirez is running on fumes, but the A's are risking little to nothing. Most guys of Ramirez' stature would not take such a deal (Vlad, etc.), so maybe they will catch lightning in a bottle with Manny.

[TooLiveBrew]

He just spent 36 million dollars on a very unproven player who has only played as high as A or AA depending on where you think the cuban league ranks. He traded young players for Seth Smith and signed Jonny Gomes also. How many veteran OF's do you need when you also have Cespedes and Crisp guarenteed playing time. Manny is just going to take away at bats from young players to try and develop them. Plus he his know to be a cancer among the team. I wouldn't want him around my young players at all.

I think the Cespedes signing & trade for Smith indicates that Crisp isn't viewed as an important long-term piece, as well he shouldn't be. I'd have a hard time believing Beane is planning around getting PAs for Crisp. On Cespedes... people downplayed the level of competition in Cuba when the Reds signed Chapman, which seems to be working out alright for Cincy.

 

It's not about what 'level' anyone thinks the Cuban league is at, it matters what your scouts have to say about whether or not the player will translate to MLB. Obviously the A's feel he will, at least enough to justify the pretty modest salary & contract they agreed upon to sign him. I mean, Brett Lawrie clearly wasn't ready for his delayed-by-wrist-injury promotion to the big-leagues in 2011, depending on who you asked. Then he came up & hit. The Jays were ready to make that promotion at the start of 2011 because he was ready, talent-wise, not because he'd done [X] at level [Y].

 

And if simply being near Manny is enough to significantly affect the development of young players, then the young players are your problem, not Manny Ramirez. It's like being upset that Melvin gave a NRI to Izturis because he can't hit, & will infect the other players with suckiness.

 

I honestly don't really care one way or the other about Beane, I think he's a solid GM who receives too much praise & far too much criticism. I mean, yes, you can make a GM look bad by listing only the moves you don't agree with. But none of these you've listed are major, or really even matter, in the big picture. Big-picture-wise, Beane has been consistently building towards the A's contending once they get a new stadium. He's sold high pretty well recently on his pitchers who are in arbitration years (Cahill, Gonzalez, Breslow), and has helped build one of the better farm systems in MLB. John Sickels sums up the situation in Oakland nicely, in his '12 Top 20 Prospects feature: "This system was looking pretty thin until the flurry of trade activity this off-season. You now have the nucleus of a future starting rotation with Parker, Cole, Peacock, Gray, and possibly Milone, plus some staff-filling arms backing them up."

[MVP2110]

I am a big fan of what Billy Beane used to do, But in recent seasons it just seems like he has lost it. He hasn't put together a solid team in awhile and they don't project to win again until 2014ish or so. thatd be about 7ish years of losing in a row.