Better without Fielder?

[HiAndTight]

Re-read the first two posts on this thread and tell me that no one is

saying that. If you aren't, good. You're right. I'm not arguing with

you on that, then.

 

I see people suggesting that we may be a better team overall, suggesting better balance once Prince leaves. I see Arod and Griffey, two no doubt HOF'ers mentioned. I don't see anyone suggest that his production can be approximated by a journeymen.

 

The reason I said that money would be spent on those players is that

they are the most likely to get extensions (and raises) in an effort to

keep together what I hope is a successful 2011 squad. Am I wrong that

the payroll is not going up substantially in 2012, because you think it

will? I guess we will have to wait and naturally never discuss it

again.

 

Well, the problem here is you took about 5 words from your initial statement. What you initially said was that the money saved on Prince would not be used on other positions. We've also cutting other players salaries, we're also growing as team and we're also on pace to have over 3 million again this year. That, coupled with the fact that again, we've got TV money that's coming in either in '12 or '13(I believe the extension starts in '12) and we have cost certainty with many of our younger players and it baffles me how you think the Brewers could offer Prince 20 million per year, but that they won't put a single dollar into another player not on this team. Or at LEAST not a substantial investment. Also saying the Brewers payroll is maxed out doesn't seem to be true based on Mark A and Melvin's own words, but we'll leave that one for now.

 

It's because I don't trust him. It didn't take a large sample size for

me to lose confidence in Escobar either, and all he proved in a full

year was that he is better than Betancourt. Perhaps someday when he is

an all-star we will revisit this conversation... but probably not. This

is an opinion, after all, not a bet.

A-Saying you're going to be right on Gamel because you weren't a fan of Escobar and he proved you right does absolutely nothing for me. I could turn around and say I was confident about Prince and was right about him. Neither are even slightly relevant.

 

B-Not only was Escobar expected to struggle mightily last year offensively, but he never approached the level of offensive success that Gamel has.

 

But fine, you don't trust him. That's...your opinion. But then leave the irrelevant numbers out, which incidentally are NOT horrible. They were league average. So at worst, he was league average while being jerked around and not playing everyday as a rookie.

 

Money will continue to be spent, and positions will be upgraded or not,

but Fielder has been a big part of the identity of the Brewers for the

past 6 years, and I don't see a Mariners situation coming out of his

departure. Name another time time the heart of a team has been removed

and the team has improved. I think the Mariners were an aberration, and

it would be delusional to expect it in Milwaukee.

 

The Mariners did it twice with two SIGNIFICANTLY better players in Arod and Griffey in recent history. The Twins have done it with Santana and Hunter as well.

[logan82]

Adam LaRoche or better is probably a reasonable expectation for Gamel at 1B. Averagish defender around an .800 OPS. I think Gamel can be better than average on defense at 1B. Have to keep in mind that just like in LF the bar is low for defense at 1B. I also think .800 OPS is on the low end of expectations for Gamel as a hitter.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Wasn't Gamel's biggest problem at 3B his arm not his glove? In that case he should be at least an average defensive 1B.

[monty57]

"Paying dues" is the phrase I was using to indicate that a player learns at the major league level, at the cost to the team of high-end production. When Gamel steps in, 1B is downgraded, and even if he becomes a "great" player, I suspect it will be near the end of his arbitration years, so that all folds into my feeling that losing Prince is not going to provide an improvement on what I hope is a good 2011 team.

 

If anyone has been "paying his dues" in the minor leagues, it's Gamel. He was expected to be with the Brewers years ago, but McGehee took over 3B, so Gamel has been stuck "paying his dues" in the minors. While it stinks for Gamel, long-term this will probably be beneficial to the Brewers, as he ought to be major league ready next year, as opposed to many of their prospects who were brought up when they were very young. We'll have Gamel at a relatively cheap salary until he's around 32 years old... in other words for most of his productive career.

[pmg4]

Opinions and statements are being attributed to me that I haven't made and, frankly, don't believe in.

 

Did I say that Gamel is a lost cause? No. I said that his replacement of Fielder is not going to result in overall team improvement, and that I am not thrilled with his numbers in limited action.

 

Did I say that I want the Brewers to pay Prince $20M? No. I don't want them to pay anyone that money. It isn't realistic for their market. The fact that he will not be getting that money is my basis for thinking that no one will be getting it, because where better to spend it? There will be some money shuffled around as extensions are granted and contracts end, but I have strong doubts that whatever changes will result in a better team.

 

To quote Funketown: "his production won't be as difficult to replace (or nearly replace) as many think". He didn't use the word journeyman, but the implication of "near replacement" done easily is that that players close to his level are plentiful. Sorry if my use of the term "journeyman" upset you, Hi.

 

Finally, to answer a question from cwolf2012, no, I didn't expect Esco's bat to be good. But based on a lot of hype, I did expect an amazing defensive SS, which we did not see. That was supposed to be the mature part of his game, and after a couple of months, it started to become clear that it wasn't as mature as we had all thought.

 

As a note to those who are passionate on the other side of this topic, thanks. I truly want to know how the team could possibly improve by losing Prince. I still don't buy it, but I do like to know that there are glimmers of hope out there I can latch on to.

[monty57]

As a note to those who are passionate on the other side of this topic, thanks. I truly want to know how the team could possibly improve by losing Prince. I still don't buy it, but I do like to know that there are glimmers of hope out there I can latch on to.

 

I agree that losing Prince will definitely hurt, and will not be easy to replace. My "glimmer of hope" is that the loss of production from Fielder to Gamel will be made up by an increase in production at one of our weak spots, SS and/or CF. If there is a way to sign one of the premiere FA SS's (Furcal, Rollins, Reyes), than I think the upgrade at SS, both offensively and defensively, will at least make up for some of the lost production from "downgrading" from Fielder to Gamel. There is also a possibility of trading Wolf or Hart for an upgrade if the management feels that one of our pitchers (Rogers, Rivas, etc) would be a better option than Wolf or that someone like Gindl would be a better option than Hart. Maybe this isn't a likely scenario, but it's possible. It could help the team talent-wise and open up more funds for the signing of one of the aforementioned SS's.

 

Will losing Fielder hurt us? Absolutely

 

Is there a chance that Melvin can make some moves that will make us better in 2012 than 2011? Probably, but it won't be easy.

[chadomac]

Yeah, I sure do wish we would've traded Fielder before this season started.

[monty57]

Chadomac, that's a whole different line of thought. While I'm certainly happy with our current roster, and that we have our pitchers locked up next season as well, we did give up a lot of young talent. There is definitely reason to believe that had we traded Fielder for a top of the rotation starter who we'd have for multiple seasons, we still could've brought in Marcum, and used the money we're paying Greinke to bring in someone like Adam Dunn for multiple seasons. That way, we'd still have Cain, Esocbar, Jeffress and Odorizzi, have a good rotation and have Dunn for more than this season. In other words, there is a possibility that we'd still be a playoff team, and possibly be better for more years into the future.

 

Nothing is done in a vacuum, and the hardest thing about not trading Fielder is that we will lose him for draft picks that may or may not ever see a MLB playing field. A World Series in 2011 will make it all worth it :-)