Better without Fielder?

[DHonks]

I'm curious if anyone else feels that the Brewers might be a better team when Prince is allowed to leave. I think back to when the M's allowed Arod to walk and traded Griffey, and they actually got better. This was also around the time they traded the Big Unit as well.

 

With Prince, he's arguably the worst defense first basemen in recent history. He is still quite prone--in his 7th year--to trying to swing for the fences way too much. Don't get me wrong...I like Prince as a Brewer, but I also get frustrated that he seems a notorious slow starter to go along with the aforementioned issues. This may be a pretty big knee-jerk reaction, but I've quietly pondered the question in my first sentence many times.

[Funketown]

I don't think they'll be better, but I think people overestimate how valuable he is to this club. He is a great hitter, but he is only a good player. The bottom line is he's a very bad defensive first baseman, and his production won't be as difficult to replace (or nearly replace) as many think.

 

It won't break my heart when Prince leaves, so long as he doesn't sign a team-friendly deal with a rival.

[brains and braun]

We are talking about the guy with the OPS over 1 two of the past four seasons?

[Schlitz001]

I'm not sure I see your reasoning behind arguably the team's best hitter leaving and the team somehow getting better? With the Marinier's teams of the late '90's and early '00's, A-Rod and Griffey departed, but at the same time they upgraded their offense and pitching to make up for these loses. When we lose Fielder's production, the team will get worse unless we have a plan to upgrade in other areas, in part with money we save through not signing Fielder.

[jerichoholicninja]

No. They will not be unless he is traded for MLB ready players.

[RobDeer 45]

Not even close. Our lineup would be in a lot of trouble right now without him. He does alot even when he doesn't do anything.

[brewmann04]

Well with the way the 1st four games have gone this team just might be looking to move Prince @the deadline might as well get something.

[DHonks]

Part of the weird logic for me is also that teams in the playoffs don't always have good/great offensive 1b, but they almost always seem to have good/great defensive 1b. Watching the Reds this weekend with very good defensive players at all 4 infield spots, I found myself pissed every time we hit a chopper or grounder because it was nearly a guaranteed out. When the ball is on the ground against us, we always have to hold our breath

[TooLiveBrew]

As long as he can get comfortable at 1B, Gamel is a huge upgrade, athletically, over Prince. Whenever I think about what might have been with Gamel at 3B, I remember this play: http://milwaukee.brewers....y.jsp?content_id=4620435

 

I don't think the team will necessarily be better off without Prince... but if you analyze it as a comparison btw. keeping Prince at $150M+ for the next 5+ seasons, versus having that money available to use on other players, then yes the Brewers might be better off without him in the big picture. Plus he'll probably result in a couple of compensation picks to boot.

[The Truth]

Will we better when Fielder leaves? Hopefully

 

It depends on so many factors, and alot of them depend on the very inconsistent Doug Melvin... Melvin might make a great trade, he might make a horrible trade, he might take that $25 million a year and sign 2 Jeff Suppan/Doug Davis types and a Mark Kotsay type and a partridge in a pear tree (OK I digress)

 

If Mat Gamel can stay healthy and hit well (he'd certainly be a huge defensive upgrade, one would think) and Prince's money is spent wisely, then yeah maybe we could be better

[LouisEly]

Get rid of the only LH impact bat in the lineup, much less one of the top 10 impact LH bats in MLB, and they are a better team?

 

Only if his subtraction means the addition of three LH bats who are above-average both offensively and defensively and at least one above-average starting pitcher. What RobDeer said above - his presence in the lineup creates a lot more impact than can be measured in the box scores.

[danzig6767]

As long as he can get comfortable at 1B, Gamel is a huge upgrade, athletically, over Prince. Whenever I think about what might have been with Gamel at 3B, I remember this play: http://milwaukee.brewers....y.jsp?content_id=4620435

 

I don't think the team will necessarily be better off without Prince... but if you analyze it as a comparison btw. keeping Prince at $150M+ for the next 5+ seasons, versus having that money available to use on other players, then yes the Brewers might be better off without him in the big picture. Plus he'll probably result in a couple of compensation picks to boot.

Yea, the only way the Brewers are better without Prince is if the 15 million paid to him is spent in a very productive manner elsewhere while his replacement isn't a massive downgrade at the plate. He is not only a huge power threat in the cleanup spot, he draws 100 plus walks a year on a team not exactly loaded with a bunch of patient hitters besides Weeks.

[HiAndTight]

As long as he can get comfortable at 1B, Gamel is a huge upgrade, athletically, over Prince. Whenever I think about what might have been with Gamel at 3B, I remember this play: http://milwaukee.brewers....y.jsp?content_id=4620435

 

I don't think the team will necessarily be better off without Prince... but if you analyze it as a comparison btw. keeping Prince at $150M+ for the next 5+ seasons, versus having that money available to use on other players, then yes the Brewers might be better off without him in the big picture. Plus he'll probably result in a couple of compensation picks to boot.

I think it's even more than that. I think setting aside the future ramifications of the contract, we could still be much improved simply by spreading some of the money out next year.

 

Much of this is contingent upon Gamel being productive at 1st, so others obviously won't be as confident, but I believe Gamel's too talented to not be a productive offensive player in the big leagues, and I believe he's capable of hitting .300/.375/.450. That with what one would assume is much improved defense would vastly limit the loss of Prince, but even at a line of .275/.350/.425, with the money saved we could improve the SS position as well as the CF position.

 

Someone along the lines of a Marco Scutaro for 2 years and 12 million to 15 million would be a huge upgrade at short. JJ Hardy would as well. It remains to be seen if that's even plausible given his departure from here, but money talks, and short of a big season, he may not be in as much demand as he would like.

 

And a guy like David DeJesus in CF for a similar deal would go a long way to shoring up two incredibly important positions with two very solid players.

 

This is just speculation, but the question is could we be better without Fielder. A lineup of;

 

1-Weeks 2B

2-Scutaro SS

3-Braun LF

4-Gamel(L) 1B

5-Hart RF

6-DeJesus(L) CF

7-McGehee 3B

8-Lucroy C

 

Of course this exact lineup is unlikely to materialize, but we'll have money to spend, and with the starters coming back that we'll have with Greinke, Marcum, and Yo in particular, spreading out the money so we don't have the huge black holes could easily leave us with a more balanced lineup, and a far better defensive team.

[crewcrazy]

They won't be better without him, but the dropoff won't be so large that 2011 is the only real "go for it" season. First basemen with a good amount of pop (although not as much as Prince) and decent defense aren't all that hard to find. As long as they don't end up with a player similar to Kotsay playing first next year, the offense should still be good enough to keep the team in the playoff conversation. Losing Weeks would have been a much bigger blow than losing Fielder.

[Thurston Fluff]

I believe Gamel's too talented to not be a productive offensive player in the big leagues, and I believe he's capable of hitting .300/.375/.450. That with what one would assume is much improved defense would vastly limit the loss of Prince,

 

What has Gamel shown so far to make you assume he'd be a huge defensive upgrade?

[ReverendBrewmeister]

What has Gamel shown so far to make you assume he'd be a huge defensive upgrade?

Isn't the prevailing analysis of Gamel's defensive weakness was in making throws from 3B, not his range or fielding (= ball into mitt)?

 

If that is true, then Gamel's range and fielding capabilities should be a distinct defensive upgrade over Fielder, since the typical criticism of Fielder is his lack of range and fielding.

[dlk9s]

This may be a pretty big knee-jerk reaction

Yes, it is.

[Fear The Chorizo]

not having Fielder on this team will be an offensive downgrade, but like others have said, if Melvin uses the Fielder dollars to solidify the roster in other key areas, the Brewers may improve defensively and pitchingwise enough to come out even...I'm just not sure they'll be able to improve enough in those areas to be better as a team overall. You're taking a top 15 offensive player off a roster and would have to drastically improve defensively to offset that.

[carniesandrubes]

Considering he'll probably be replaced with yet another journeyman who can't hit like so many others have been lately, no.

[Ennder]

We won't be better without Fielder but as long as we are smart about replacing him and don't go with someone like Kotsay to fill the role we should be competitive next year even after he is gone.

[fondybrewfan]

I think if Fielder hits like he did last year we might be better off. When you couple his horrible RISP along with horrible defense and bad baserunning I think you very easily could improve the team by putting Gamel at 1st and using the $15M on an actual SS or CF or maybe even additional pitching. However if Prince can duplicate his 2009 then it would be a pretty tough argument to say we could improve the team by letting him go.

 

In 2010 he had a .753 OPS with RISP and only 83 RBI's

In 2010, when he was at first he only made it to 3rd base on a single 1 out of 51 times by far the worst mark in the league

It goes without saying that he is a weak defensive 1st basemen.

 

IMO we could replace 2010 Fielder pretty easily, 2009 notsomuch.

[Thurston Fluff]

What has Gamel shown so far to make you assume he'd be a huge defensive upgrade?

Isn't the prevailing analysis of Gamel's defensive weakness was in making throws from 3B, not his range or fielding (= ball into mitt)?

 

If that is true, then Gamel's range and fielding capabilities should be a distinct defensive upgrade over Fielder, since the typical criticism of Fielder is his lack of range and fielding.

While his issues were more related to throwing than catching he has very limited experience at first. Couple that with the fact he will have to throw the ball some in either postion I don't see it as a foregone conclusion Gamel will be a significant upgrade. As far as Fielder's range is concerend I don't think his range was all that much of an issue. Catching the ball seems to be his bugaboo.

[Warning Track Power]

Are we better without Prince? Well it depends on what you mean.

 

Scenario #1 Prince Leaves Via FA: If you are asking if we are better once he leaves via free agency, well that is a rather emphatic no. Simply inserting Gamel or a FA 1B is not going to make this team any better overall. No one we get will replace Prince's offense next season and any defensive improvement will not come close to offset the missing offense.

 

Scenario #2 Prince Trade During 2011 Season: This is more compelling and I will, for argument's sake, say that we would be better served this season to deal Prince for bats. This is what I think the Brewers should have done after acquiring Greinke, even though we told Greinke we were keeping Prince. Once Greinke and Marcum were acquired, we had the ability to not necessarily deal Prince for pitching and could have dealt him for hitting.

 

If we could have had any of the following deals, for example, would we be better in 2011 without Fielder than we are now? Now if these teams would have offered these deals is up for debate, but that is the premise of the argument of us being better in 2011 without Prince:

 

Trade #1 Prince to Atlanta for Nate McLouth and Freddie Freeman: McLouth replaces Gomez in CF and Freeman is the 1B of the future for Milwaukee. Doesn't solve our SS issue but gives us a better player now in CF and hopefully 6 years of 1B security. Atlanta gets Fielder relatively cheaply. For the Brewers, is Freeman/McLouth better than Fielder/Gomez. Maybe not this year, but for the future, possibly.

 

Trade #2 Prince to Baltimore for Adam Jones and JJ Hardy I was pushing this deal in the offseason. Jones is a good bat and defender and replaces Gomez in CF and Hardy solves the SS issue now. Gamel becomes the 1B and the lineup looks a lot more balanced than what it currently does. Baltimore would have been given a window to resign Prince as I think they will offer him the contract he is looking for and could have gotten something done hence the willingness to deal Jones. For the Brewers, is Jones/Hardy/Gamel better than Gomez/Betancourt/Fielder? ABSOLUTELY!

 

Trade #3 Prince to Los Angeles for Matt Kemp and James Loney: Everything I read out in L.A. this offseason said Kemp WAS available for trade this offseason, now probably not. Loney can't hit for power in Dodgers Stadium and is certain to be gone when his contract is up. Prince brings star power to L.A. (something sorely lacking right now) and a team that, despite McCourt's financial troubles, can afford him. Kemp replaces Gomez and Loney replaces Prince. Once again does nothing for SS, but for the Brewers is Kemp/Loney better than Fielder/Gomez? Probably.

 

Like I said, I am not sure if these trades are realistic but from my standpoint I don't see them as being one-sided for Milwaukee. Trade #1 makes Atlanta the best team in the NL IMO. Trade #2 makes Baltimore borderline scary if their pitching develops. I believe that for the Brewers, these trades make them better long term. Whether or not they are fair...well, I believe they are.

[cwolf2012]

"McLouth replaces Gomez in CF"

 

This makes me shudder. Can you imagine how bad that OF defense would be with Braun, Hart, and McLouth? Yuck.

 

Either way, Freeman is worth more than Prince right now. I doubt any of those trade scenarios happen.

 

#1) Freeman was 20 years old and put up nearly a .900 OPS last year in AAA. He's a huge prospect and is under control for 6 years. No way we get him for Prince.

 

#2) Slightly more likely. Adam Jones is a pretty darn good, young player on a team that is still a year or two from being good enough to hang in the AL East. They also already have Derrek Lee and Vlad Guerrero. They don't need Prince right now unless they can resign him.

 

#3) Once again, awful awful defense in the OF if this happens. Secondly, I'd rather just give the job to Gamel straightaway than take Loney. Loney is not very good. I think this is the only of the 3 scenarios where the Brewers lose on the deal, and it doesn't help the team much at all.

 

Remember, we still have Nyjer Morgan available as a CF. It's WAY more important to fill the SS spot than CF, since we actually have a backup plan for when Gomez finally gets yanked.

[TooLiveBrew]

The only one of those trade scenarios that seems close to plausible to me is #3. #s 1 & 2 are waaaay in favor of the Brewers.