Shortstops available

[nate82]

There are a number of teams in the AL that could use an upgrade at SS too that could take a run at Hardy - not to mention, all the latest rumors have the O's trying to extend Hardy rather than trade him.

What teams in the AL need a SS that are in contention right now? The Yankees don't need a SS, the Red Sox don't need a SS, the Tigers don't need a SS, the Rangers don't need a SS, the Indians don't need a SS, and the Rays do not need a SS. So which team in the AL exactly needs a SS?

[logan82]

Why don't the Yankees need a SS? Jeter isn't very good.

[endaround]

No but he isn't getting benched unless his stint on the DL takes the rest of the season.

 

Yeah even the Angels don't need a shortstop and shortstop is the least of the Mariners issues

 

The Brewer's luck is that there are three teams in need of a shortstop, Cincy(assuming they hang in there), SF and Milwaukee and 3 shortstops look to be moved.

[TheCrew07]

A few things,

1) Of course you won't like the suggestion of a Furcal or Hardy, they aren't young unproven minor league players. We get it. In your eyes there is never a purpose for signing an older player (tell that to your beloved Rays...and their signing of Johnny Damon). I don't believe it is realistic, sometimes you have to plug certain gaps with veterans. Yes, they come at a premium, but even the best run farm system has its holes.

Well first off, you clearly haven't bothered to read the entirety of those long posts about organization building that you're referring to, as I've been talking about building around young pitching and signing bats through FA to plug holes. Essentially the exact opposite tact that this organization has taken, while it's exactly what the Rays have done. I've talked about locking up players prior to arby and buying FA years and wins below market value, something the Rays really initiated and finally Melvin has caught on to. My beloved Rays cycle talent back around on itself, as do many small markets, and all GMs that I consider to be good categories. They cycle proven talent into more impact talent, they don't cycle the other way paying high costs for proven talent hoping for draft picks on the back end. That's how the large market teams with greater resources operate, although the Rays had a boatload of picks in this year's draft as well.

 

I am, generally without exception, looking to get younger and more dynamic at MLB, build a solid organization with a regular flow of impact talent, and I do abhor signing these older players who tend to spend significant portions of time on the DL or being ineffective. Wolf's general success over the past year doesn't prove me wrong, he's clearly the been the exception in Melvin's tenure. Taking shots at me, the Rays, and stating the obvious in that all farm systems have holes doesn't prove your point, or anything about Furcal for that matter. This isn't *#@$%+ created by the farm system and scouting department, quite the contrary actually.

 

2) No one suggested a long term deal. I mentioned an extension, meaning one year, maybe two. Hopefully such an extension would give our system the time to either develop a younger SS or trade for a younger SS. No one is talking a Suppan type deal here. (Strangely enough, I haven't heard any "I was wrong" comments from you in reference to the Wolf signing).

2 years is an incredibly long time for someone in their mid 30s, we'd be on the hook for 2.5 years of him. Josh Prince is probably your best hope of an internal SS panning out in the next 2 years, but I'm personally not sold on him. We already traded an All-Star SS and a top 30 prospect SS in the last 3 years and trading for pitching this off season, I'm not sure how we trade for a young SS, they have value like starting pitchers. I don't have any problem with a FA SS, Furcal just hasn't been healthy in years having to plan to replace at least 20% of his starts with replacement level production is poor planning.

 

If Furcal is plan A, then you also need a solid plan B to replace the starts he won't make. His last full season OPS was .711 which is a tremendous upgrade over Betancourt but isn't exactly exciting. With Furcal's health issues we could still be looking at a low .600s OPS out of that position on the whole, with a possible defensive upgrade. I don't mean to suggest a defensive improvement wouldn't have significant value, I'm suggesting that Furcal by himself doesn't solve the problem if he doesn't play enough to push the position past replacement level production on the whole.

 

While the position would be upgrade over Betancourt, reallistically it may still underperform the league average and a be a weakness, even with Furcal if he's on the DL. If that's the case, regardless of the cost, has the problem really been solved? That's basically the same tact Melvin took year after year with the pitching.

 

As for Wolf... Wolf was horrible for a half a season, and good for about a total of a 1 season. I believe my exact comments were something along the lines that it wouldn't surprise me if Wolf was the worst pitcher on the staff talent wise by the time his contract is up. I didn't count on emptying the farm system for Greinke and Marcum, but he's only 1 slot away from that position right now. He's worked out well to this point, but if you want me to say that the signing was a good move, I won't at this time, we're only halfway through his contract and we're still paying him all that money to be our #4 pitcher, which wasn't the intent when he was signed. I will say he's worked out better than I expected.

 

3) I guess it is possible that he might spend some time on the injured list. However, that is exactly why he will come so cheaply in a trade, and in a short term extension. If he gets injured after we extend him, well, we got what we paid for. If he doesn't, then we'll have the benefit of an average to above average SS for average or below $$$.

People said the same things about Saito... but how much value does a player provide on the DL? Surely a cheaper contract is better than a more expensive contract, but again it's not good business to have to count on replacing at least 20% of a position's production in a year due to health. I already made my case above regarding this point.

 

4) I understand your abhorrence of ever trading a minor league player for a major league veteran, but having an above average SS for the remainder of the season and for the playoffs would be very nice. Who do you want batting in game 7 of the NLCS, Betancourt or Furcal? I'm sure you'll suggest you'd prefer to go and trade for a prospect SS, but most clubs are going to demand a significant premium in trading a major league ready SS prospect. Especially due to the utter lack of good SS options in the league currently. So, being realistic, our options are continue with Betancourt or trading a B or C level prospect for Furcal. Which would you prefer for the final stretch of the season/playoffs?

Once again you're posting opinions that I really don't have and certainly have never shared. I've clearly been in favor of trading redundant talent, I like the idea of trading prospects economically for a MLB piece like Morgan for example, but I'm not in favor cycling talent the way Melvin has in the Greinke or Sabathia deals, or giving up significant impact talent for a guy who I wanted to acquire in 2005 in Marcum. He has built a house of cards, a couple of injuries and we're done. Everything has broken the Brewer's way so far, but we're only halfway through the season, what happened to Prince Albert could easily happen to Braun, Fielder, or any of our pitchers... injuries are 1 thing in sports that is mostly a fuction of luck/circumstance for players under a certain age.

 

You're sure I'd want to trade for a young SS? With what? Ahh, I get it, I haven't been realistic regarding these all these trades that Melvin has made and the costs on the backend. Silly me. I'd play your game but I honestly haven't even bothered to look as prospect SSs who might be available. The majority of my time over the last 4 years has been spent evaluating young pitching, getting ahead of the curve pitching wise has been my obsession. I've resigned myself to the fact that Melvin isn't going to change and I've just been beating my head against wall, and I have no interest in persuing position players through trade.

 

I know we're all in, and I just don't care, I have a hard time getting excited about the organization unless I'm actually watching the MLB team play. I'm just unable to get past the notion that this success likely means Melvin will be extended, but I don't think retaining Melvin is in the best long-term interests of the organization. He inherited Jack Z, made his run on Z's players, and hasn't been able to replenish the talent as Z's successor hasn't gotten the job done. I do like Seid, and he's trying to correct Z's one major flaw in developing starting pitching, but he hasn't done much better and now the system doesn't have a stable of impact hitters either. As such, I've put about 1/10 of the effort into this baseball season as I normally would, to be honest I probably let Mass and Sessile down on the Minor League side as I'm not contributing over there, I've done no research on the NL, no prospect research at all, and any thread I post in I usually let sit for a week so I don't get caught up in any back and forth conversations.

 

Given the state of the Dodgers Melvin might be able to pry Furcal away for a C prospect, I'm not sure we even have a B prospect in the upper minors (Gamel doesn't qualify as a prospect anymore and Kris Davis is still in A+), but I doubt we'd get any salary relief, nor do I view him as a viable solution going forward. Would you trade someone like Green to get Furcal knowing McGehee's struggles this season? Of the players most frequently mentioned in this thread, Reyes is going to require impact talent to acquire, Hardy is going to require impact talent to acquire, and Furcal has only played in 17 games this season for a team in severe distress. As we don't have impact talent to trade outside of Thornburg, just on talent alone I believe Hardy and Reyes are not realistic targets. Furcal could be, but again how can you definitively claim he'd even be healthy enough to be on the post season roster if the Brewers get there? That's not an even odds proposition, I'd guess it's much more likely that he's not available. A post Betancourt stop gap solution would likely seem to come from someplace else.

 

Here's a list of potential SS FAs for the 2012 season from COTS, I didn't research if any contracts were extended or options picked up:

Yuniesky Betancourt MIL *

Ronny Cedeno PIT

Adam Everett CLE

Rafael Furcal LAD

Alex Gonzalez ATL

J.J. Hardy BAL

Cesar Izturis BAL

John McDonald TOR

Augie Ojeda ARI

Jose Reyes NYM

Nick Punto STL

Edgar Renteria CIN

Jose Reyes NYM

Jimmy Rollins PHI

Ramon Santiago DET

Marco Scutaro BOS *

Jack Wilson SEA

 

As signing a Hardy or Reyes doesn't seem likely given the Brewers payroll situation, I don't really have a favorite from that list. I could go look around the AAA clubs and see what's out there, but I think any SS move Melvin would potentially make would be underwhelming at the time, even Furcal. SS is a tremendous hole in the organization at this time as we have some intriguing players in the various levels of Rookie ball, but in A ball or higher it's basically just Josh Prince. Melvin knew what he was getting into when he included Escboar in the Greinke trade.

[nate82]

Why don't the Yankees need a SS? Jeter isn't very good.

Jeter is not going to be moved off of SS and he won't be the DH. Jeter isn't very good but he isn't going anywhere.

[strawbossisevil]

I didn't know that you had an inconsistent view towards the value of signing an older OF vs signing an older SP. Signing Johnny Damon, A+ move. Signing Randy Wolf, Melvin stinks...or, in retrospect, not so bad...but down with Melvin anyway!!!!

 

If Furcal is traded to Milwaukee, I would gladly take the bet that he will be around with the team during the playoffs. Comparing him to Takashi Saito doesn't make much sense either, seeing as Furcal is 7 years younger.

 

As for your dismissing of a .700 OPS via a SS. Only 10 SS (out of 26 who have enough ABs to qualify) have a better OPS than .700 so far this season. .700 is above average for a MLB shortstop at this point. This is due to the fact that the Shortstop position is fairly weak throughout baseball. Of those who would be available next offseason...only Reyes and Hardy look to be better options, with Rollins and Scutaro being similar type players to Furcal. The biggest difference between Furcal and the trio of Reyes, Hardy and Rollins, is that Furcal will be much cheaper and can be signed to a much shorter contract.

 

Scutaro may be another decent option, however he is two years older than Furcal. I would love for the Brewers to make a play on both Furcal and Scutaro on 1-2 year deals (preferably one year deals), having Scutaro fill in the Craig Counsel role next season. That would be an excellent remedy to our current hole at SS.

 

Finally, I wanted to bring up Alcides. He's barely cracking a .600 OPS at this point. I don't think he'll be missed, nor do I think he'll amount to much. He's being outhit by Yuni B, and that is saying something. This is the guy you wanted to bring up not last year, but two years ago because he was "ready", and it was clearly time to move him up to the MLB and trade Hardy. In retrospect, trading Hardy was the mistake. Offensively, at least, Escobar still belongs in AAA.

[TheCrew]

Jeter is not going to be moved off of SS and he won't be the DH. Jeter isn't very good but he isn't going anywhere.

Yankees often add pieces they don't really need. It would not be far fetched to see them trade for Hardy to spell Jeter a few times per week and I could even see them toying with having Hardy spell A-Rod at 3rd every now and then.

 

Seattle would be a prime landing spot for Hardy - especially given the Jack Z connection, don't know why you'd discount them so easily since they are also in need of offense and their current SS is Brendan Ryan. Rays are also in desperate need for help at SS.

 

Oakland could be a player as well......... I could see Washington showing interest, heck the Pirates could possibly be players with how they've been playing. Plus all the teams you mentioned. I think your vastly underestimating the demand Hardy would bring on the open market if he proves he is healthy and continues to swing a hot bat. Heck even a bad team could trade for him and work out an extension if they see him as a long term solution - in fact, the rumor right now is that Baltimore is trying to do just that rather than trade him.

 

There are so many obstacles with a possible Brewers/Hardy trade that it just seems like a pipe dream and has about .0001% chance of happening - I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't think people are being realistic about the obstacles of that trade.

[strawbossisevil]

Yep, I think if a trade does happen it will either be Furcal or Scutaro.

 

There is just too much bad blood with Hardy, and Reyes will be far too pricey.

[Never Outhustled]

Sergio Mitre for Jamey Carrol. Not quite fair on talent alone, but the Dodgers save a little money here. I would think that would be appealing to them right now.

[Oldcity]

Why does the Hardy's supposed bad blood with the Brewers prevent him getting traded here? He doesn't have a NTC so he has no say where he's traded.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Why does the Hardy's supposed bad blood with the Brewers prevent him getting traded here? He doesn't have a NTC so he has no say where he's traded.

Because Melvin won't want to trade for him. I think that's what people are mostly alluding to.

[Never Outhustled]

Why does the Hardy's supposed bad blood with the Brewers prevent him getting traded here? He doesn't have a NTC so he has no say where he's traded.

Because Melvin won't want to trade for him. I think that's what people are mostly alluding to.

 

Not a Melvin fan, but I doubt he holds any kind of grudge, and he believes in 2nd chances. I would think he'd believe Hardy would give him a 2nd chance. Hardy would be crazy to turn down the type of free agency pay day he could get if he played on a World Series team.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Why does the Hardy's supposed bad blood with the Brewers prevent him getting traded here? He doesn't have a NTC so he has no say where he's traded.

Because Melvin won't want to trade for him. I think that's what people are mostly alluding to.

 

Not a Melvin fan, but I doubt he holds any kind of grudge, and he believes in 2nd chances. I would think he'd believe Hardy would give him a 2nd chance. Hardy would be crazy to turn down the type of free agency pay day he could get if he played on a World Series team.

I don't but that Melvin or Hardy would be against it. I'm just saying what everyone is thinking that says that. The move makes sense, but it depends on the expense. I wouldn't give up too much for him.

[TheCrew]

Not a Melvin fan, but I doubt he holds any kind of grudge, and he believes in 2nd chances. I would think he'd believe Hardy would give him a 2nd chance. Hardy would be crazy to turn down the type of free agency pay day he could get if he played on a World Series team.

No one said Melvin held a grudge - this would be about him admitting he made a mistake in dealing Hardy in the first place.

 

In reality, this is more about how Hardy feels about Mil - Would you have any desire to go help out a previous employer that literally cost you millions of dollars? I'll admit, I didn't think it was bad when it happened - but looking back at it, and looking at some other things (babip for example)............ and that was a straight up screw job. It's also 2011 - players can dictate where they are getting traded to. If Hardy is adamant that he doesn't want to come to Milwaukee, odds are he won't be coming here with or without a NTC.

 

Here are the obstacles of a Hardy trade:

- Baltimore isn't shopping him, they are trying to extend him.

- Milwaukee lacks prospects

- If he is put on the block, a number of teams would be interested and Milwaukee can't afford to get into a bidding war.

- Melvin would have some egg on his face if he made the move

- Hardy doesn't have a NTC, but that doesn't mean he has zero pull. If he holds a grudge against Milwaukee, which I wouldn't blame him for, it's just another obstacle.

 

Don't get me wrong, if it were possible - I'd love it, but I just don't think people are being realistic about the fallout of Melvin sending Hardy down to AAA.

 

The better fit is a retread or flamed out prospect or to eat a contract imo - Milwaukee's greatest asset is that they can eat money to make up for lack of a prospect. Furcal is the perfect fit because of this, especially when you take into consideration the Dodgers financial problems.

[Warning Track Power]

TheCrew[/b]]Don't get me wrong, if it were possible - I'd love it, but I just don't think people are being realistic about the fallout of Melvin sending Hardy down to AAA.

I generally like Melvin and his front office, especially their go for it mentality, be it CC or Greinke or Marcum trades. Speaking solely on the likelihood of JJ coming back to Milwaukee though, I just don't see it, as happy as it would make me. JJ's demotion has to be ranked up there with one of the biggest screw jobs in Brewers history. I know baseball is a business so I don't need a lecture from someone on that but I am still a little disappointed in the handling of JJ by the Brewers front office. Especially given their willingness to stick with a Yuniesky Betancourt at least from December 2010 until July 2011.

 

If I were JJ and the Orioles front office told me they had a trade worked out with Milwaukee and asked about my willingness to return there, I would ask permisssion to allow me to talk to the Brewers and gauge their interest in a long term extension (3 years +) with a no trade clause. Additionally, I would want clarity from Melvin as to the circumstances surrounding what happened in 2009. Maybe at that point in time I would feel comfortable with coming back to Milwaukee. But I would certainly want the guarantees afforded by a long term deal with a no trade clause before I thought about committing to a place that I felt wronged me in 2009. This would be due diligence from the Brewers side as well given the likely cost it would take to get JJ back into a Brewer uniform. The last thing I want as a Brewer fan is a JJ trade that includes a Thornburg and then watch JJ leave as a FA after 2011.

 

From a players and fans standpoint though, I imagine JJ would relish coming back to play with Weeks, Braun, Hart and Fielder (for 2011) and playing for the fans in Milwaukee who (mostly) desperately want to see him back in a Brewer uniform.

[TheCrew]

Honestly, it would probably take more than a 3 year contract - Melvin essentially owes him a year of pay, they would have to overpay.

 

JJ was pretty darn quiet through that whole process, but comments made by he and his agent made it clear they weren't happy with Melvin and co.

[jwill535]

He has no one but himself and his poor play to blame for his demotion. He can be mad all he wants but he was Yuni like with a better option available. The only reason Yuni is still here is because there is no better option.

[TheCrew]

He has no one but himself and his poor play to blame for his demotion. He can be mad all he wants but he was Yuni like with a better option available. The only reason Yuni is still here is because there is no better option.

I use to share the same perspective, good writeup here: http://www.fangraphs.com/.../hardy-and-service-time/

[jwill535]

Be mad all you want, but its a business. Again if he was playing up to his normal standards, there would have been know way he would have been sent down. His poor play gave them a reason to send him down and use this chip.

[TheCrew]

Like I said, they wouldn't have done that to prince or braun. He was an all star previously and his play wasn't that poor, he still had a WAR of 1.4 that season.

[Hate those Rodents]

A war under 2 for a SS isn't that great. The way Hardy was struggling and Escobar was excelling in AAA, it was reasonable to give Escobar the rest of the season as the starter given we were out of contention. We could have kept JJ on the bench, but that would have arguably been worse. Arguably. He was given a shot to find his stroke at AAA and came back up later in the year.

[Hate those Rodents]

Somewhat off topic, but not really....I saw Jimmy Rollins numbers today on ESPN. They aren't that great, but still solid. But I'm not thinking he'll break the bank given his age. What type of a contract do you guys think he'll get if he continues to put up the stats he's putting up this year?

[RockCoCougars]

He has no one but himself and his poor play to blame for his demotion. He can be mad all he wants but he was Yuni like with a better option available. The only reason Yuni is still here is because there is no better option.

I strongly disagree. I said it the day that it happened, and I'll say it now. Hardy's demotion was a bush league move, motivated solely by the desire to mess with his service time. He was having a down season in '09, but not bad enough to be optioned to the minors. Things look even worse now that Escobar's career path looks to be that of a light hitting Royce Clayton on the upside.

[Never Outhustled]

A war under 2 for a SS isn't that great. The way Hardy was struggling and Escobar was excelling in AAA, it was reasonable to give Escobar the rest of the season as the starter given we were out of contention.

 

Execpt Escobar wasn't excelling at AAA. He was mediocre there. Hardy deserved to be sent down, but it should have happened weeks earlier, and Counsell should have taken over at SS.

[Funketown]

When Hardy was sent down, he was still performing at a reasonable level to be starting on a major league roster. With the way Escobar hit in AAA there was really not much reason to expect him to outperform Hardy over the last two months of the season. It was a clear manipulation of the arbitration clock, all so the club could net Carlos Gomez in the off-season. In retrospect, the way Hardy was handled can be viewed as one of the failures of Melvin's tenure.