Shortstops available

[RockCoCougars]

I think that it's time to start inquiring about Hardy. Just find out if the Orioles are willing to throw the towel in yet, and if so see what they're looking to get. They will very likely be double digit games back by the end of the weekend.

 

I'm a fan of Furcal for a lot of reasons, but at this point, there are just too many question marks (injuries, now the Dodgers are looking to move him to 2b). Because of these issues and his salary, he could be a guy that's available in August as a plan B or C.

[jjfanec]

I just want a SS who can be average in the field and average at the plate because that is a huge step up from Yuni. If we could rotate counsell and Furcal maybe we could get that but Furcal has been pretty bad this season even when healthy. Hardy will like cost a lot but I would love to get him. I dont want Reyes with what we would have to give. I honestly dont know if we have enough to get him.

 

SS and 3B are the two places we need improvement. 3B could cover itself with Casey bouncing back or Taylor Green coming up. SS has ZERO internal options. If this lineup could get decent production out of the SS and 3B we would be so dangerous. Our rotation is settled in very nicely and Axford is doing his thing.

[Mr Southpaw]

The other option would be the scrap heap -

A. give some unknown a shot

B., give a has been a shot

C. give a busted prospect a shot

The answer is B. gice a has been a shot. Omar Vizquel, 44 year old 10 time gold glove switch hitter that loves the game of baseball and he would be cheap. Play a triangle at shortstop with Counsell, Vizquel and Wilson. Between the three of them there is 44 years of MLB experience.

[endaround]

No, having 3 players on your team the really can play one position is not the answer.

 

Anyone know what Chris Nelson's defense is like? He's certainly blocked in Colorado. http://web.minorleaguebas...p;t=p_pbp&pid=455126

He's currently in Colorado hitting .233/.260/.411 but has only played 2B/3B there. Is that just due to Tulo or is he limited?

 

There's also Tommy Manzella, a guy that Melvin would just let go or trade for considerations if he was Brewer property, http://web.minorleaguebas...p;t=p_pbp&pid=446373 Any idea on his defense?

[TheCrew]

I think that it's time to start inquiring about Hardy.

I just don't see this as a realistic option. Hardy is probably telling his agent that if you let Baltimore trade me to Mil., I'll fire you. Melvin essentially cost Hardy a lot of money and it's now clear that it wasn't a good move.

 

On top of that, Hardy is hot now - history suggests a month long cold streak is around the corner, but all that said, if it were possible - I'd welcome him with open arms.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't doubt that Hardy wouldn't want to come back to Milwaukee, but he doesn't have much say in the matter. On the other hand, I could see the problem lying more with Melvin. Could he go full circle and re-acquire Hardy, basically admitting his mistake? Probably not, who knows what went down behind the scenes back in '09? I still that that it makes a lot of sense to ask about him though.

[TheCrew]

If Hardy tells his agent/Orioles that he doesn't want to come to Milwaukee, in 2011, he probably won't get traded to Milwaukee unless the offer from Milwaukee is significantly better than anybody else. Hardy doesn't have the final say, but his opinion definitely factors in and even more so if he feels strongly about it.

 

Plus this also doesn't even take into consideration what you just brought up - It's another obstacle with Melvin having to swallow his pride on that one and admit the huge gaffe he made.

 

Honestly, I think Reyes is more of a realistic option than Hardy and that's why I think Melvin just needs to start throwing what he can against the wall and seeing if anything sticks, but he will probably ride Betancourt out as long as he can to see if he somehow turns it around at the plate.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Betancourt is and will remain the worst SS in MLB as long as he's in our starting lineup. The whole "pride thing" really is quite dumb. If Melvin acquires Hardy, and the Brewers make the World Series, or even win a playoff series, who is going to remember that Melvin traded away Hardy two years ago in a total "bush league" move?

 

Nobody. Winning fixes everything. Given his close relationships with many current Brewers, i doubt Hardy would hesitate to come back. If anything, he could come back and play well to "show Melvin" how absolutely stupid Melvin was to trade him for garbage in the first place. After that, he can sign a 5/75 contract with the Yankees.

 

Melvin has made some outstanding moves (CC, Greinke, Morgan, Braun/Weeks extension, etc...) That said, Hardy's trade for garbage is by far Melvin's worst to this point

[jjfanec]

To be fair Hardy got traded for garbage again this off season. Before busting out again this year JJ's last two years had an OPS of .659 and .714. Not really all-star material. As a big JJ fan I am not sure I thought he had another year like this in him. JJ had little value when Melvin traded him. Baltimore either saw something in his swing they could fix or got really lucky and they are being rewarded for that

[TooLiveBrew]

Before busting out again this year JJ's last two years had an OPS of .659 and .714. Not really all-star material.

 

As we're finding out this season, though, is that SS can be a spot where good offense is hard to find. There was certainly a better chance of Hardy proving he could bounce back than Betancourt suddenly becoming a good MLB hitter.

 

Even though I'd love to see him back, I agree that there's got to be a very slim chance Hardy would want to return under Melvin.

[jjfanec]

Before busting out again this year JJ's last two years had an OPS of .659 and .714. Not really all-star material.

 

As we're finding out this season, though, is that SS can be a spot where good offense is hard to find. There was certainly a better chance of Hardy proving he could bounce back than Betancourt suddenly becoming a good MLB hitter.

 

Even though I'd love to see him back, I agree that there's got to be a very slim chance Hardy would want to return under Melvin.

I completely agree if it was Hardy for Yuni it was a terrible trade. However, Hardy at the time compared to Gomez is a loss but not a huge loss. Melvin and the rest of the scouting department thought Escobar was ready to be a starter and they were wrong. The biggest mistake was moving Escobar without a better plan than Yuni who is dreadful.

[TheCrew]

Betancourt is and will remain the worst SS in MLB as long as he's in our starting lineup. The whole "pride thing" really is quite dumb. If Melvin acquires Hardy, and the Brewers make the World Series, or even win a playoff series, who is going to remember that Melvin traded away Hardy two years ago in a total "bush league" move?

 

Nobody. Winning fixes everything. Given his close relationships with many current Brewers, i doubt Hardy would hesitate to come back. If anything, he could come back and play well to "show Melvin" how absolutely stupid Melvin was to trade him for garbage in the first place. After that, he can sign a 5/75 contract with the Yankees.

Hardy doesn't need to come back to Milwaukee to show Melvin anything - he can do that on any other team. Your also completely forgetting that Melvin cost Hardy a year of service time and some serious cash - I highly doubt Hardy has forgotten that Melvin sent him down to the minors for x amount of days and delayed his FA by a year, yes Hardy was struggling but Melvin would not have done the same thing to Braun or Prince. The trade is one thing, that is another.

 

I really think we'd have a better chance of landing Reyes than Hardy.

[nate82]

Betancourt is and will remain the worst SS in MLB as long as he's in our starting lineup. The whole "pride thing" really is quite dumb. If Melvin acquires Hardy, and the Brewers make the World Series, or even win a playoff series, who is going to remember that Melvin traded away Hardy two years ago in a total "bush league" move?

Actually Betancourt isn't the worst SS in MLB that honor belongs to Miguel Tejada why the Giants are playing him at SS right now is very odd. Well Tejada is the worst SS right now until the Giants move him over at 3B and then he becomes the worst 3B in MLB. What I find is funny someone suggested trading for Tejada or taking Tejada in the Kottaras thread. Tejada has actually been worse than Betancourt this year. Tejada's line so far this year .224/.253/.546 compared to Betancourt's line so far this year .233/.255/.605. People complain about how bad Betancourt is imagine if the Brewers had Tejada on the team right now instead of Betancourt.

Also with Hardy I don't think he would care if he was coming to Milwaukee or not. If it means he gets to play in the postseason and show off his skills and that he can stay healthy which I doubt he will Hardy will go on the DL one or two more times this year he could actually get a bigger payday in free agency. Right now even if Hardy has a solid year from here on out he is still looking at a max 2-year deal with an option for a 3rd year due to his injury history. Hardy hasn't been healthy for a few years now.

I also believe people are over valuing Hardy's value on the trade market. Hardy has a injury history which is going to be knocking down his value he is also a streaky hitter a very streaky hitter. It is not going to take more than one B or C type prospect there is no way the Orioles get anything more than a teams 15th best prospect for Hardy.

 

[RockCoCougars]

I think that the Orioles will trade Hardy within the next month or so, because they are pretty much out of the race and something like 3 of their top 10 prospects are SS. I also think that they are going to get a nice haul for Hardy- as in one highly rated prospect or a few decent prospects- simply because there is a big time shortage of SS in baseball, including on a handful of contending teams. With Hardy's history of injury and streak power, I'd be inclined to test the market right now if I'm Baltimore.

[nate82]

I think that the Orioles will trade Hardy within the next month or so, because they are pretty much out of the race and something like 3 of their top 10 prospects are SS. I also think that they are going to get a nice haul for Hardy- as in one highly rated prospect or a few decent prospects- simply because there is a big time shortage of SS in baseball, including on a handful of contending teams. With Hardy's history of injury and streak power, I'd be inclined to test the market right now if I'm Baltimore.

There are only three teams that look like they will need a SS with a fourth team maybe out of it (Cardinals) that are in need of a SS. The Brewers, Cardinals, Giants, and Reds are the four teams that I can see that need a SS. I don't see Reyes going to any of the four teams. That leaves Furcal and Hardy as the top picks with Hardy being the highest on the list. It will all depend on how much of a demand these teams make for Hardy. I think the Reds can go with Janish and Renteria as I don't see them parting with the pitching prospects the Orioles would want. The Giants may get involved but would they be willing to give up one of their top prospects for a half a year of Hardy? The Cardinals if they are still in it probably make the most sense for a Hardy destination to be truthful. I think they will dump a prospect or two to see how far they can go with Pujols before he hits free agency and the unknown for the Cardinals. The Cardinals really need pitching more so than anything else they really do not have a number one or a number two in their rotation right now. Most of the Cardinals rotation is a bunch of #3's, 5's and 6th starters.

That leaves the Brewers and I am not sure Melvin will trade any of the pitching prospects he has left. I am not sure that the Brewers are even a fit for a match with the Orioles prospect wise to make a trade happen.

[GoudaBrew]

What about a guy who has only been mentioned a couple of times in this thread....Jason Bartlett. On paper he looks similar to Furcal. Bartlett strikes out a little more, but walks at a nice rate and could hit 2nd or 7th/8th in our lineup. The defensive matrices on Fangraphs don't love him the last couple of years, but he was known as a very good defender previously. Is the upgrade from Yuni to Bartlett too small to get excited about? He's signed through 2012 at a reasonable rate of $5.5M (or 1 $1.5M buyout) and has around $2M left on this years deal. The Padres are going to want to give Everth Cabrera another shot in the Bigs at some point and Bartlett shouldn't cost much in prospects to acquire.

[HiAndTight]

Because when he is healthy, he is a very good performer. Also he'll likely come cheaper than other alternatives.

Finally, I'm not one who believes that injuries in the past necessarily mean more injuries in the future. Just because a player has been snake-bitten in the past by a few injuries does not mean he is necessarily going to be sidelined for long stretches in the future.

Many called Weeks injury prone and didn't want him extended. I would guess that few would argue against his extension at this point.

 

The problem is he's rarely healthy. As far as the Weeks comparison, he's what 28? Furcal has missed a ton of time three of the last four years and will be 34 as this season ends. So once again, why would we sign him to a long term deal?

Who said anything about a "long term deal?"

 

Furcal's a good fit here. It's his injury history that makes him affordable, and he still has the ability to perform well.

 

I'd rather trade for him and give up the lesser value than give up whatever it'd take to get someone like Reyes(which is pretty ridiculous at this point) or even Hardy who'd also take a lot to acquire. And moving forward, looking at the FA market, taking a chance on Furcal offers the most upside at the lowest cost.

 

100 games of Furcal at the level he'll likely give you and 60 of Wilson is a LOT better than Betancourt. And, I'd be in favor of signing his current backup Jamie Carroll next year as well as a utility guy.

[TheCrew]

There are only three teams that look like they will need a SS with a fourth team maybe out of it (Cardinals) that are in need of a SS. The Brewers, Cardinals, Giants, and Reds are the four teams that I can see that need a SS.

There are a number of teams in the AL that could use an upgrade at SS too that could take a run at Hardy - not to mention, all the latest rumors have the O's trying to extend Hardy rather than trade him.

[TheCrew]

Who said anything about a "long term deal?"

 

Furcal's a good fit here. It's his injury history that makes him affordable, and he still has the ability to perform well.

They should be able to get him for basically nothing as long as they are willing to eat a portion of his contract - I'm starting to think this is Melvin's target and he is just waiting to see how Furcal does on rehab (which starts today I think).

[strawbossisevil]

After 4 injury plagued seasons, where's any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that Furcal will stay healthy enough to be a factor in the post season, and is worth any kind of long-term deal, regardless of the contract?

 

Furcal is doing exactly what the average player does as they age, spending more and more time on the DL. Some players buck the trends in the injury nexus, most however do not, and Furcal falls solidly into the significant injury risk category.

 

When will people around here quit suggesting long-term deals for these aging and declining players? Is it ever a good idea to have to plan to replace 20+% of the season's production with a replacement player? Especially since the system doesn't have many replacement players to offer?

A few things,

1) Of course you won't like the suggestion of a Furcal or Hardy, they aren't young unproven minor league players. We get it. In your eyes there is never a purpose for signing an older player (tell that to your beloved Rays...and their signing of Johnny Damon). I don't believe it is realistic, sometimes you have to plug certain gaps with veterans. Yes, they come at a premium, but even the best run farm system has its holes.

2) No one suggested a long term deal. I mentioned an extension, meaning one year, maybe two. Hopefully such an extension would give our system the time to either develop a younger SS or trade for a younger SS. No one is talking a Suppan type deal here. (Strangely enough, I haven't heard any "I was wrong" comments from you in reference to the Wolf signing).

3) I guess it is possible that he might spend some time on the injured list. However, that is exactly why he will come so cheaply in a trade, and in a short term extension. If he gets injured after we extend him, well, we got what we paid for. If he doesn't, then we'll have the benefit of an average to above average SS for average or below $$$.

4) I understand your abhorrence of ever trading a minor league player for a major league veteran, but having an above average SS for the remainder of the season and for the playoffs would be very nice. Who do you want batting in game 7 of the NLCS, Betancourt or Furcal? I'm sure you'll suggest you'd prefer to go and trade for a prospect SS, but most clubs are going to demand a significant premium in trading a major league ready SS prospect. Especially due to the utter lack of good SS options in the league currently. So, being realistic, our options are continue with Betancourt or trading a B or C level prospect for Furcal. Which would you prefer for the final stretch of the season/playoffs?

[liveforoctober]

Adam Everett was just DFA'd by Cleveland. All of you people who know things ... talk to me.

[Warning Track Power]

They should be able to get him for basically nothing as long as they are willing to eat a portion of his contract - I'm starting to think this is Melvin's target and he is just waiting to see how Furcal does on rehab (which starts today I think).

I agree totally. Furcal will be traded barring the Dodgers catching fire and re-joining the race. It just makes too much sense for a team not going anywhere, a team with the financial problems they have and a team with their future SS already on the roster in Dee Gordon. Although the rumblings from out here in L.A. have the Dodgers moving Furcal to 2B so him and Gordon can play the IF together, that is totally posturing. Saving money is Dodgers Priority 1 especially with the list of players and the amount of deferred compensation coming out today as well.

 

I'd prefer JJ but not at the price of a Thornburg like I think it will take. I expect Furcal will cost a Farris though. Assuming all things remain relatively close to the same, I expect Furcal to be a Brewer before season's end. The question I have then is how to slot the batting order. I drool over Furcal in the leadoff spot and Hart and McGehee flip-flopped in the lineup, but expect this:

 

2B Weeks

SS Furcal

LF Braun

1B Prince

3B McGehee

RF Hart

C Lucroy

CF Morgan/Gomez

[TheCrew]

I agree totally. Furcal will be traded barring the Dodgers catching fire and re-joining the race. It just makes too much sense for a team not going anywhere, a team with the financial problems they have and a team with their future SS already on the roster in Dee Gordon. Although the rumblings from out here in L.A. have the Dodgers moving Furcal to 2B so him and Gordon can play the IF together, that is totally posturing. Saving money is Dodgers Priority 1 especially with the list of players and the amount of deferred compensation coming out today as well.

 

I'd prefer JJ but not at the price of a Thornburg like I think it will take. I expect Furcal will cost a Farris though. Assuming all things remain relatively close to the same, I expect Furcal to be a Brewer before season's end. The question I have then is how to slot the batting order. I drool over Furcal in the leadoff spot and Hart and McGehee flip-flopped in the lineup, but expect this:

Yeah, I saw the same thing about 2b for Furcal - if anything, they are only doing it to get gordon and furcal on the field at the same time but if furcal shows he is healthy, he'll be traded to the team willing to eat the most money right away. The more Mark A will eat, the less we'll have to give up for a prospect.

 

Love the lineup as well, and if Furcal can play up to his talent level and stay healthy........... could be extremely dangerous. Although I've soured on McGehee - he at least needs to get dropped in the lineup, halfway through the season and the #5 hitter protecting Prince has 4 HR's, teams will start to exploit that - but that's for another topic.

[RockCoCougars]

I agree that Furcal is the likely option, but it would be nice if they at least asked about Hardy first. If they pay Furcal for half a season, it might inhibit some other late season tweaks that should be made (power bat off the bench, vet reliever, etc.)- that said, if Furcal could drink a potion of youth and get back to even 85 percent of what he was offensively 5 years ago, this offense would be absolutely sick

[Cyanogen5]

Yeah, I saw that Everett was released. I personally would rather have him than BatterNineYouSucky or Wilson...but he certainly isn't great. I see him as a short term upgrade (addition by subtraction?) or something to bluff other GMs into thinking that we aren't totally desperate for a shortstop.