Our Current Starting Lineup Does Not Look Good

[danzig6767]

Why would Glaus have been a liability? The dude used to be great at 3rd and occasionally played SS in interleague games to create flexibility for the lineup

Glaus can't even play 3rd anymore. He played strictly at 1st all year for the Braves last season except for two innings at third.

[The Truth]

gotcha, but it's kind of funny that Prince in his prime is the same defensively as a guy at the end of his career that's had multiple surgeries.

Funny is one way to put it. Depressing might be another. Prince is, in my opinion, a pretty awful fielder. Our entire infield right now is not close to playoff caliber defensively. Weeks looks like by far our best fielding infielder, and that says it all.

 

[paul253]

It's annoying that the Brewers don't work the count. Sometimes
ambushing the first pitch can be great...but we didn't face a 3-ball
count until the 8th inning today! It looks like we're trying to pull
the ball for homers every at bat.

Haha Dhonks. This is almost exactly what I said on the first post of the page, but you just made a comment about that saying I used that you don't like (sorry about that by the way). It's nice that we agree though. It's almost like watching a slow pitch softball game where guys just swing at everything.

"They are swinging at too many first pitches and not working the count enough. Everyone is trying to pull the ball."

[TheCrew07]

I would debate that trading for Greinke was a great move on a number of levels that I won't go into here, I think one's opinion of the deal rests largely one's personal prejudices at this time. I don't think historical perspective will be kind to either deal Melvin made this offseason, but I hope to be proven wrong or I'll be exceedingly bitter by August. Regardless, making that trade doesn't make him great, it doesn't matter which side of the fence you sit on, the cost to aquire Greinke was very high and assured us of Gomez in CF and Betancourt at SS... we can all at least agree on that. Sure we swap Greinke for Davis or Bush if you prefer, but we also gave up Odorizzi. I don't think any of the GMs whom I consider to be "good" make that trade, and how much WAR did we give up to gain? I still believe WAR wise that in 2011 Cain+Escobar+Jeffress > Greinke-Bush(Davis)+Betancourt+Gomez and that's leaving out Odorizzi whom I believe is going to be a very solid #2 pitcher down the road health permitting, but won't impact KC's rotation in '11 or '12 (well maybe the tail end of '12).

 

Gomez has enough service time that I no longer hold out any hope he'll improve, one can still hope that Escobar will get better as he matures towards his peak. Jeffress was the best pure arm in the system, Odorizzi was the best all around pitcher in the system, and Cain is already as good as Gomez defensively and a better hitter who will likely get better as he approaches his peak.

 

Just because Melvin and Mark A. have said we're all in doesn't mean we'll win the division and doesn't mean the moves this off season were in the best interests of the franchise as a whole. Yes I've harped on pitching for as long as you all can remember, but I've also stuck to my guns on acquiring Sabathia/Greinke type players to plug holes, I still think those deals are a horrible way to cycle talent. The window to acquire pitching talent to go with this wave of hitting talent a reasonable cost was 2006-2008 and he made his move acquiring Sabathia for half a season.

 

To me Melvin has been making moves out of desperation since he got here, he's only made a move when his hand has been forced. Yes, even Sexson, the Brewers were so bad they significantly upgraded mutiple roster spots by trading one player. Take Sabathia, if Yo doesn't blow out his knee (on another tag play which I just can't stand as there is nothing fundamental about that kind of play... I know, what great effort by Prince though...) I highly doubt Melvin makes that trade. He also seems to feel pressured to make a deadline deal even though the piece he's acquiring will have a minimal impact in the grand scheme, I'm thinking of trades like Linebrink and Lopez in this regard. Melvin has killed my enthusiam for the Brewers, while he's great at turning around a morbid franchise, he has no idea how to build and maintain success within a small market organization year in and year out. He'd do much better being the GM of a large market team where he would have the resources to build through FA with veteran players. I didn't renew my small ticket package because of him and I doubt I'll make down to more than 1 game this year, I have no interest in supporting the current regime.

[brewmann04]

i would use Morgan over Kotsay until hart return, I wonder if Macha is enjoying his time off.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

This team is really frustrating me. They aren't scoring any runs unless they hit home runs. They are all solo home runs though because they don't have anyone that can actually get on base without hitting a home run. They are swinging at too many first pitches and not working the count enough. Everyone is trying to pull the ball. I think Nyger Morgan needs to be in the lineup, batting first, with Weeks batting second. Of course that leaves Gomez back in the lower half of the lineup with Nieves and Betancourt which, when I just typed that, made me throw up a little in my mouth thinking of those three batting next to each other. Logan Schafer needs to learn how to stay healthy because there's a good chance he could be our starting center fielder by the end of the season.

I took a look at the box score today and Betancourt saw 10 pitches in 4 ab's. Kotsay took 9 pitches in the same amount of ab's.

How how is it to work the count?

 

[JohnBriggs12]

This team is really frustrating me. They aren't scoring any runs unless they hit home runs. They are all solo home runs though because they don't have anyone that can actually get on base without hitting a home run. They are swinging at too many first pitches and not working the count enough. Everyone is trying to pull the ball. I think Nyger Morgan needs to be in the lineup, batting first, with Weeks batting second. Of course that leaves Gomez back in the lower half of the lineup with Nieves and Betancourt which, when I just typed that, made me throw up a little in my mouth thinking of those three batting next to each other. Logan Schafer needs to learn how to stay healthy because there's a good chance he could be our starting center fielder by the end of the season.

I took a look at the box score today and Betancourt saw 10 pitches in 4 ab's. Kotsay took 9 pitches in the same amount of ab's.

How how is it to work the count?

 

 

Would you rather have those guys behind 0-2 in the count every AB? Red pitchers were throwing strikes. It's as simple as that.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

This team is really frustrating me. They aren't scoring any runs unless they hit home runs. They are all solo home runs though because they don't have anyone that can actually get on base without hitting a home run. They are swinging at too many first pitches and not working the count enough. Everyone is trying to pull the ball. I think Nyger Morgan needs to be in the lineup, batting first, with Weeks batting second. Of course that leaves Gomez back in the lower half of the lineup with Nieves and Betancourt which, when I just typed that, made me throw up a little in my mouth thinking of those three batting next to each other. Logan Schafer needs to learn how to stay healthy because there's a good chance he could be our starting center fielder by the end of the season.

I took a look at the box score today and Betancourt saw 10 pitches in 4 ab's. Kotsay took 9 pitches in the same amount of ab's.

How how is it to work the count?

 

 

Would you rather have those guys behind 0-2 in the count every AB? Red pitchers were throwing strikes. It's as simple as that.

So you can't work the count when you're in a 0-2 hole?

[Ennder]

I didn't know they even said that on Dodgeball.

 

The phrase predates Dodgeball by at least 15 years since I had heard it before college.

[JonnyLungs]

What is the scouting report on Zelous Wheeler's defense at shortstop? Just checked his offensive numbers and they were better than I thought last year at AA (.275/.382/.396) as a 23 year old.

 

Could he eventually be an option at SS? (edit: 32 errors in 93 games at SS would suggest his SS D is a work in progress).

[logan82]

I wish Melvin would have went after Dye or Glaus instead of Kotsay.

 

I wish Melvin would have kept Dickerson and cut Kotsay.

 

 

I didn't know they even said that on Dodgeball.

 

 

The phrase predates Dodgeball by at least 15 years since I had heard it before college.

 

Yeah I figured,. I was just a little confused why it was connected to Dodgeball for some reason.

[DHonks]

logan et al, I'd never heard the phrase until Dodgeball, but since then I've heard it tons. Following the movie it started to appear a lot on Brewerfan and even in the everyday conversation of my students and--occasionally--a peer. My apologies for being so off on it, but it's a phrase that annoys me almost as much as hearing "hella". When I got to college in California, I couldn't believe how annoying it was that West Coast folks used hella hundreds of times in daily language. I'm so glad I don't hear that anymore. Did hella ever make it to Wisconsin? I remember complaining about it to friends on other college campuses across the country, and none of them had ever heard it (this is back in '99)

[trwi7]

Did hella ever make it to Wisconsin?

 

Yeah, it was hella lame and went away almost as fast as it came in.

[RockCoCougars]

I think that some need to calm down. It's a long season. I mean really- Jermaine Dye? Chris Dickerson sucked for 20 some games last year, and all that I heard was 'small sample'....a sweep in the Cincy bandbox, and panic sets in after three games.

[The Truth]

I think that some need to calm down. It's a long season. I mean really- Jermaine Dye? Chris Dickerson sucked for 20 some games last year, and all that I heard was 'small sample'....a sweep in the Cincy bandbox, and panic sets in after three games.

well.... in general, I agree. Its a long season, alot can happen, we have alot of talent. etc etc.

 

But also we can see the writing on the wall with some players: Kotsay has not been much for 3-4 years, Betancourt hasn't been much of a fielder yet in his career, Nieves is a horrible hitter. These guys aren't going to magically/mystically transform their game. And then there is Gomez, who we hope will magically/mystically transform his game but he sure looks like the same old Gomez

 

Sure, our lineup should be much better when Hart & Lucroy return (plus Greinke!). But in the meantime, we could be digging a huge hole to climb out of. None of that is panic...

 

[danzig6767]

I would debate that trading for Greinke was a great move on a number of levels that I won't go into here, I think one's opinion of the deal rests largely one's personal prejudices at this time. I don't think historical perspective will be kind to either deal Melvin made this offseason, but I hope to be proven wrong or I'll be exceedingly bitter by August. Regardless, making that trade doesn't make him great, it doesn't matter which side of the fence you sit on, the cost to aquire Greinke was very high and assured us of Gomez in CF and Betancourt at SS... we can all at least agree on that. Sure we swap Greinke for Davis or Bush if you prefer, but we also gave up Odorizzi. I don't think any of the GMs whom I consider to be "good" make that trade, and how much WAR did we give up to gain? I still believe WAR wise that in 2011 Cain+Escobar+Jeffress > Greinke-Bush(Davis)+Betancourt+Gomez and that's leaving out Odorizzi whom I believe is going to be a very solid #2 pitcher down the road health permitting, but won't impact KC's rotation in '11 or '12 (well maybe the tail end of '12).

Regardless if you weren't a fan of acquiring Grienke, for those of us that were fine with it, our frustration lies with Melvin making moves like that this offseason to hopefully make the Brewers a legit playoff contender, but then at the same time he trades for Betancourt, and fills the bench with an over the hill Kotsay and keeps a 33 year old Almonte based on some spring training at bats reminiscent other spring training wonders who proved in the regular season that spring training stats are usually worthless. Signs Will Nieves as the backup catcher.

 

If you're a GM and making obvious win now moves via trading for Grienke/Marcum, why the hell add another bad defender in Betancourt who also can't hit and fill the bench with the likes of Kotsay, Reed, Almonte, and Nieves?

 

I understand that almost no team with a 90 million dollar payroll or less will fill a starting lineup and rotation with zero holes, and bench players are bench players for a reason, but come on Doug, Betancourt, Kotsay, Reed, Almonte, and Nieves?

 

Then make a very solid trade in getting Morgan, only to see Kotsay's corpse being trotted out there. Gomez batting second because he's fast. Each of these things/players individually don't mean much, but all combined are quite frustrating.

[derflotr]

With Hart out the Brewers need some sort of threat at the bottom of the order. If Lucroy returns before then I can't imagine Nieves sticking before Kottaras. I never thought that was in question. I think within a couple of days Morgan starts in RF until Hart returns. In a way I'm relieved that Kotsay hasn't done anything memorable so that Roenicke is justified in taking him out of the starting lineup in favor of Morgan. I'm still a bit upset that Reed gets the temporary spot over Boggs. Would be comfortable with him in the 6 hole. Still the only long-term problem I see for them is Betancourt, as it was before. Getting Hart and Lucroy back makes the offense much stronger.

[TooLiveBrew]

How does Doug on one hand pull a fabulous trade like getting Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik or getting Grienke, but then think it's smart to sign Kotsay and trade for Betancourt because Yuni had 78 RBI's last year?

 

While I agree in a general sense that Melvin's been frustratingly up & down, I have a hard time believing that the Betancourt aspect of the deal wasn't something he really loved. I've just been assuming that the Royals insisted that YunE had to be included in order to pull the trigger.

 

 

a sweep in the Cincy bandbox, and panic sets in after three games.

 

Actually, if you've been reading the forums for the past month or two, you'd see people have been stating how concerned they are about Kotsay & Betancourt being viewed as solid additions to the team. There's nothing panicky here, and it doesn't have a whole lot to do with game outcome, either. People are rightfully concerned about the fact that Betancourt & Kotsay have lived up to how bad they were expected by some to be.

[giffted1]

If you're a GM and making obvious win now moves via trading for Grienke/Marcum, why the hell add another bad defender in Betancourt who also can't hit and fill the bench with the likes of Kotsay, Reed, Almonte, and Nieves?

Betancourt has been every bit as bad as advertised which is troubling, but in a few weeks we know for sure that at least two of those bench players will no longer be on the bench with the return of Lucroy and Hart. Melvin was in a rough position in that you don't want to give up a lot of talent just to fill two holes for a couple of weeks. He actually did an okay job finding someone to play with Hart out, but for whatever reason Roenicke has used Kostay and Almonte over Morgan. Kotsay doesn't seem good at baseball things, and based on some of the comments this spring, I assume he charmed his way into the lineup.

[strawbossisevil]

I guess I don't see how either could "live up" or "live down" to expectations in as short a time period as three games. Betancourt is a poor hitter, yes, but his average is going to be a lot closer to .250-.275 by the end of the season than his current average of .000. He's going through a rough stretch, no doubt. I just don't know how much the rough stretch can really tell us about what we can expect from him this year. Every player goes through stretches where they just look lost at the plate during the season.

 

Kotsay may not even be on the roster once Hart gets back.

[RobDeer 45]

It was talked about in another thread (maybe in game) and I thought it fit in here. It goes along with the trade for ZG and Marcum and also with the fact that I do think we are in win now mode and that next year we'll have to take a step back. The way I look at it is, DM will try to resign ZG and Marcum but probably won't be able to sign both of them. So whoever is not signed, which I lean towards ZG, goes on the trading block before the season or before the trading deadline. This is why I think DM was ok with trading away so much, he knows he can replenish the system by trading them to someone else. So 2012 may be a step back but it get's us one year closer to a few young guys in our system and then allows us to trade for some AAA type prospects that can fill in the gaps in 2012-13. I know it might be frustrating to lose those guys after one year but I think it's a good move. It gives us a legit chance to win this year and gives us legit trading power the following year!!!

 

The trend in baseball now is pitchers hold all the weight. That should be our focus going forward. Bring guys in, use them up until the year before they hit FA and then trade them to replenish the farm. So I'm happy with DM (besides what he pieced together with the fill in guys).

 

Also, if we are having issues still when we get all our regulars back, I have confidence that DM will make a move to bring in SS and maybe even a bench bat. I also think that Gomez will have most of April to start and if he's swinging out of his shoes like he did today Nyger will be in there at least on a platoon. I can take great D in CF as long as we are getting O from RF and C, which we should.

[brettac1]

I don't think that getting good offense from Lucroy is anything near a surefire bet. It's his first full season in the bigs and he missed all of spring training. I think that position is going to continue to be a black hole.

[DHonks]

I'd like for Kotteras to continue as the backup since he has some power and BB potential. Nieves is more important for depth. That helps the catching offense a bit

[brettac1]

I'm a big fan of Kottaras, but there are limitations with a guy who is going to only hit about .220 or so. I love that he works the count and walks and has some pop, but a .310 OBP or whatever it'll be is still not a real big positive for this lineup.

[danzig6767]

How does Doug on one hand pull a fabulous trade like getting Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik or getting Grienke, but then think it's smart to sign Kotsay and trade for Betancourt because Yuni had 78 RBI's last year?

 

While I agree in a general sense that Melvin's been frustratingly up & down, I have a hard time believing that the Betancourt aspect of the deal wasn't something he really loved. I've just been assuming that the Royals insisted that YunE had to be included in order to pull the trigger.

I don't think so. If my memory is correct, 2 million of the 4 million Betancourt will be paid this year is being covered by Seattle, so i have a hard time believing that who KC was willing to trade their ace for hinged on us taking back Betancourt so they could save two million dollars. Plus, i seem to recall Doug being asked if Betancourt being included was required by KC and he said no, that Doug wanted Yuni included in the trade.

 

In fact, i just did a quick Google search and McCalvy did a story not long after the trade. Here is a quote

 

"Getting Betancourt back was key," Melvin said the day Greinke checked

in at Miller Park. "I know that stat guys hate the guy. I don't know how

they can say he's the worst player in baseball."