Harang says Dusty ruined his career

[berniebrewer4life]

http://www.cbssports.com/.../entry/22297882/27493695

And now, Harang finally admits that relief outing is what derailed his

career. Now a Padre, Harang is attempting to recapture the magic of days

old, but Dusty Baker's bizarre pitching decisions may have claimed

another victim.

 

"What it did," Harang said of the relief

appearance to the San Diego Union-Tribune, "is fatigue me beyond the

point of recovery. I started to change my arm angle to compensate for

the fatigue and that’s when my forearm started to bother me.

Not really shocking that Dusty ruined another pitcher. I am shocked he said it, while still an active player.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm with Bert Blyleven on this one. Pitchers are babies these days. Harang never looked like the perfect physical specimen out there....he looked like he ate at Old Country Buffet every day. If he can't throw 63 pitches three days after getting knocked out of the box, how did he ever make the majors before being injured? Don't pitchers throw in between starts? I can't imagine that he wasn't ever overused in Legion ball or little league for that matter.

[brains and braun]

Just because people used to do something, doesn't mean it was a good idea. 60 or so pitches is a lot, and there is a reason players aren't usually asked to do it. Pitching is an unnatural action, and Dusty's track record is suspect to say the least. Good thing for the Giants that he wasn't around to break Lincecum and Bumgarner.

[NYChez]

I remember back in the mid '90's Jamie Navarro was a stud pitcher for the Brewers. He was the ace on the '92 team that led the AL in ERA by over 0.5 ER/game. The following year or two Phil Garner started screwing around with pitching Navarro in relief between starts. Navarro was never the same after that. I thought the relief outings between starts screwed up Navarro's career and what Harang says supports that belief.

[dlk9s]

I'm with Bert Blyleven on this one. Pitchers are babies these days. Harang never looked like the perfect physical specimen out there....he looked like he ate at Old Country Buffet every day. If he can't throw 63 pitches three days after getting knocked out of the box, how did he ever make the majors before being injured? Don't pitchers throw in between starts? I can't imagine that he wasn't ever overused in Legion ball or little league for that matter.

The problem isn't that pitchers should be able to throw more innings, it's that they don't and therefore their arms are not used to the added strain when they are called upon to pitch more than usual. Sure, starting pitchers could probably throw more pitches and eat up more innings than they do, but they would need to train for it first.

[joepepsi]

I don't know the right statistical model to build, but someone needs to do a study comparing the average years for a career in both the minors and majors for pitchers 40 years ago and today. There are a lot more pitchers today, so the data may not tell us anything, but I suspect the average length of career for pitchers 40 years ago was a lot less than it is for pitchers today.

[monty57]

Joe, I'd guess Tommy John surgery would make it a certainty that today's pitchers have a longer career.

[topper09er]

Before TJ surgery the news this week would have been Adam Wainwright's career is over.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Should and can are 2 different things. Plenty of people CAN run a marathon. However, if a sprinter who's never run more than 2 miles consecutively in his life goes out tomorrow and tries to run 26 miles, something is going to wrong.

 

It's not about what people used to do, or what pitchers in the 40's were able to do.

 

Guys today are conditioned to pitch roughly 100 pitches, every 5 days, with probably a bullpen session in the middle of that stretch. And the fact of it is that a bullpen session can't nearly be as stressful on an arm as going out and trying to get batters out. As someone else said, the act of pitching is an unnatural motion, and breaking that cycle or throwing a guy's body clock off like that CAN have long term effects.

[RockCoCougars]

Should and can are 2 different things. Plenty of people CAN run a marathon. However, if a sprinter who's never run more than 2 miles consecutively in his life goes out tomorrow and tries to run 26 miles, something is going to wrong.

 

It's not about what people used to do, or what pitchers in the 40's were able to do.

 

Guys today are conditioned to pitch roughly 100 pitches, every 5 days, with probably a bullpen session in the middle of that stretch. And the fact of it is that a bullpen session can't nearly be as stressful on an arm as going out and trying to get batters out. As someone else said, the act of pitching is an unnatural motion, and breaking that cycle or throwing a guy's body clock off like that CAN have long term effects.

You are spot on, which is exactly why pitchers are babies these days. Nolan Ryan once said this in an interview. Do they have 'pitch count' limits in little league yet? Even back when I played, they had limits on innings one guy could throw, but that was in place more to neutralize dominant pitchers. How can you run a marathon when you have been trained to run sprints your whole life?

[TooLiveBrew]

Pitchers aren't babies now, anything but. It's the sort of popular way to vent & sound macho about it, but it's not true. Pitchers have to exert far more effort to every batter in this modern era than they did even just just 30 years ago. It's not an issue of toughness, but I doubt me (or anyone else) saying that is going to have any effect on people whose minds are made up already. Basically, if you want pitchers to 'man up', what you're asking them to do is either let way off the gas against guys like Counsell or Ryan Theriot, and/or put themselves at serious risk for injury on a regular basis.

[endaround]

Nolan Ryan is a genetic freak. He may want to say it was all hard work and dedication but its mostly luck.

[Raw Biz]

I think part of the reason pitchers were able to throw so many innings 40+ years ago is because hitters weren't as skilled as they are today. Sure there were great hitters then but the average player today is better than the average player then. Add to that the fact that mounds were at least five inches higher off the ground, so pitchers had even more of an advantage. Plus, pitchers weren't throwing as many sliders and splitters like today, which put added stress on the arm. Combining everything, pitchers then didn't have to exert as much energy as they do today and they were conditioned to throw longer. I think most pitchers could go out there and throw 100+ pitches every 3 or 4 days if all they were throwing was fastballs and changeups. But that's just not how the game works these days.

[JohnBriggs12]

I remember back in the mid '90's Jamie Navarro was a stud pitcher for the Brewers. He was the ace on the '92 team that led the AL in ERA by over 0.5 ER/game. The following year or two Phil Garner started screwing around with pitching Navarro in relief between starts. Navarro was never the same after that. I thought the relief outings between starts screwed up Navarro's career and what Harang says supports that belief.

Actually no he didn't. He didn't make any relief appearances in 1993. In 94, he pitched himself out of the rotation with a 7.74 ERA in his first 8 starts. He got 1 start after that.

 

The innings racked up by Navarro at age 24 and 25 weren't unusual at the time for stud pitchers. He bounced back with the Cubs and had pretty good years in 95 and 96 so is Garner to blame for that?

 

I'll go back further. Warren Spahn use to routinely make around a half dozen relief appearances in years he was pitching in a 4 man rotation and completing half or more of his games.. Of course back then, teams carried just 10 pitchers.

[Thurston Fluff]

I know the general feeling is Baker abuses pitchers but this one is a stretch. He's far from the only manager who asked a starter to go an inning or two after a short start on their normal day of throwing on the side. In fact Harang had a relief appearance in 06 without a problem afterward.

I find it hard to believe one game caused him to suck for years after. Perhaps three consecutive years of 210+ innings, all of which came before Baker got there, had more to do with it than one relief appearance and 60 pitches.

[logan82]

Pitchers have to exert far more effort to every batter in this modern era than they did even just just 30 years ago.

 

Exactly, I don't think Warren Spahn or any other pitcher who pitched more than 20 years ago is relevant when talking about modern day pitchers.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Should and can are 2 different things. Plenty of people CAN run a marathon. However, if a sprinter who's never run more than 2 miles consecutively in his life goes out tomorrow and tries to run 26 miles, something is going to wrong.

 

It's not about what people used to do, or what pitchers in the 40's were able to do.

 

Guys today are conditioned to pitch roughly 100 pitches, every 5 days, with probably a bullpen session in the middle of that stretch. And the fact of it is that a bullpen session can't nearly be as stressful on an arm as going out and trying to get batters out. As someone else said, the act of pitching is an unnatural motion, and breaking that cycle or throwing a guy's body clock off like that CAN have long term effects.

You are spot on, which is exactly why pitchers are babies these days. Nolan Ryan once said this in an interview. Do they have 'pitch count' limits in little league yet? Even back when I played, they had limits on innings one guy could throw, but that was in place more to neutralize dominant pitchers. How can you run a marathon when you have been trained to run sprints your whole life?

Nolan Ryan >>>>> 99% of all guys who have ever pitched. Using a guy who's basically the gold standard as the benchmark for everyone else is a recipe for disaster.

 

There's guys in the 1900's who pitched 400 innings. MOST of them had brutally short careers. Of course, we love to point out Cy Young, Pud Galvin, and a few others as examples of why throwing 600 innings isn't bad for a pitcher, but it is. You can't take the guys from the very top of a sample and say "this is what EVERYONE should be able to do.

[RockCoCougars]

I disagree with the premise that hitting is better today then it was back in the 50's and early 60's. I may give you the late 60's and 70's, but you can't tell me that the pitchers of the 50's (pitching in mostly bandboxes with only 16 or 20 teams in all of baseball) had it easier.

[Ennder]

I disagree with the premise that hitting is better today then it was back in the 50's and early 60's. I may give you the late 60's and 70's, but you can't tell me that the pitchers of the 50's (pitching in mostly bandboxes with only 16 or 20 teams in all of baseball) had it easier.

I most certainly can tell you that. The best hitters might not be any different but the replacement level is way higher than before. You used to face 3-4 scrub hitters in almost every lineup so you could ease up when they came to the plate. You also could throw a much higher percentage of fastballs and players didn't work the count nearly as much. Trying to compare pitching now to pitching even 25+ years ago just isn't going to work, the games are just too different. Pitchers could certainly go a little deeper than they do now but if you take Blyleven and stick him in today's game he wouldn't have thrown nearly as many innings as he did.

[RockCoCougars]

I disagree with the premise that hitting is better today then it was back in the 50's and early 60's. I may give you the late 60's and 70's, but you can't tell me that the pitchers of the 50's (pitching in mostly bandboxes with only 16 or 20 teams in all of baseball) had it easier.

I most certainly can tell you that. The best hitters might not be any different but the replacement level is way higher than before. You used to face 3-4 scrub hitters in almost every lineup so you could ease up when they came to the plate. You also could throw a much higher percentage of fastballs and players didn't work the count nearly as much. Trying to compare pitching now to pitching even 25+ years ago just isn't going to work, the games are just too different. Pitchers could certainly go a little deeper than they do now but if you take Blyleven and stick him in today's game he wouldn't have thrown nearly as many innings as he did.

I think the best 'game has changed' argument for pitchers not going as many innings is the fact that umpires constantly squeeze the pitchers by not calling the strike as it is laid out in the rulebook, I'll give you that. As far as lineups go, I disagree. Most N.L. teams still have 2-3 non-pitching spots at least where the hitters are not world beaters by any means. The Brewers, in particular, had 3 for most of last year. Some A.L. teams have some putrid offenses as well.

[Raw Biz]

RockCoCougars wrote:

As far as lineups go, I disagree. Most N.L. teams still have 2-3 non-pitching spots at least where the hitters are not world beaters by any means. The Brewers, in particular, had 3 for most of last year. Some A.L. teams have some putrid offenses as well.

I wouldn't dispute this. However, I would say that the average player now is better than the average player then. Sure there were studs but the difference between them and every one else is a lot bigger than the difference between today's studs and everyone else (by everyone else, I mean average).

[RobertR]

Look at slugging numbers for SS, 2B, CF, and catcher over the years. That's where the change is. And it isn't all PEDs. The success of guys like Yount, Trammell, and Ripken in the early 80s did away with the myth that the only players that could play middle infield were little jack rabbits. Heck, Jim Gantner with his career .671 OPS would probably be out of baseball by his early 30s.

 

In the old days, you could make a mistake to many guys and the worst they could do was a double down the line. No longer. They're all athletes today.

 

Robert