Mark Rogers' velocity: behind the ESPN paywall.

[bjkrautk]

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/insider/news/story?id=6102459

 

Short version: Rogers threw in the upper 90s in High School, when the Brewers drafted him. After a few years in the '120 program' (limiting distance throwing to 30, 60 and 120 feet), and after two shoulder injuries, his velocity dipped to 87 mph. He received permission from the Brewers to return to distance throwing, gradually increasing to over 300 feet.

He's since been clocked in the minors at 101 mph.

 

 

Pitching mechanics are something that I'll be the first to admit I don't understand. I can see things like release points and throwing angles, and I have a decent ability to discern when a pitcher is or isn't repeating his delivery. In some rare cases, I can see in retrospect how a pitcher's delivery played a role in their injuries (Kyle Peterson and Chad Fox come to mind almost immediately), but only after the fact. Reading this story is one of those cases where I'm curious to get the perspective of people more in the know.

 

On the one hand, the results for Rogers seem to speak for themselves (yes, the injuries would have played a role in dropping velocity...but the injuries didn't happen when he threw 300+ feet). On the other hand, I think about throwing a baseball the length of a football field, and I can certainly see the cause for concern.

[TheCrew07]

Well I'll say this because I know it works from personal experience.

 

Every single one of my QBs gets in 30 alternating long throws every time we practice with the exception of a day before the game. They will drill one in on a line and then finesse loop in the next. I've had freshman QBs that could barely throw the ball 30 yards in August reaching distances of 45 yards by the end of the first season.

 

Before I get to practice (I don't teach and have to drive 30 miles to get to practice each day) every QB is supposed to go through their fundamental throwing progression to warm up. I haven't had a QB come up through the system yet who threw the ball properly, most have messed up strides, an incredibly poor release, and poor arm angles which leads to unnecessary stress on the elbow and shoulder. The release when throwing a football is nothing like throwing a baseball and most kids actually have to cheat to get a spiral because they were never taught properly, and since most of my QBs also pitch, they want to pick up their feet and stride heavily when throwing the ball. The QBs I've had that wanted to be good put in the time to learn how to throw properly, the rest don't put in the time and don't have much success, and it's pretty easy to tell who's putting the time in each day.

 

The end result of proper mechanics and the throwing program (i watch the throwing program after practice and tweak) is that we always have strong armed QBs for our level of play, freshman through senior, our problems are usually more mental in nature, though I have had some kids that have never learned to stride properly and as such always struggled with accuracy. I'm a firm believer in long toss building arm strength, even during the season, and I also firmly believe that if the kids would take 20 minutes and do their progression and long toss program all spring and summer we'd get even better results, but that's a long story for a different time.

 

I won't credit Mark's return in velocity solely to his throwing program, I think the shoulder being completely free of debris and pain has made a significant difference for him, but I also believe that a proper long toss program strengthens the arm while keeping the arm conditioned properly. The trick though, is to limit the throws outside of the program so the arm/elbow doesn't fatigue. For example, I don't want my QBs throwing 80 balls in practice then turning around and throwing another 30 long toss after practice plus another 20 working extra with the receivers after their long toss is completed. I try to keep the workload around 60-70 total throws per day, and I would think there's a good number for pitchers as well.

[jerichoholicninja]

First and foremost, some things work for some guys that don't for others.

 

I pitched in college and now coach high school and in my opinion velocity comes from 75% genetics, 15% mechanics, 10% throwing and strength training. Basically the reason someone can throw hard is mostly because they just naturally can, obviously that can be improved upon by improving mechanics and a good throwing and strength training program.

 

I would guess Mark really didn't buy into the 30, 60, 120 program. This sounds similar to the one I was taught in college, which I didn't like. Now that he's able to do something he's more comfortable and familiar with he's being more productive with it. I've always felt that the 30, 60, 120 program was good for developing control but to build arm strength you really need to lengthen it out and train yourself to use your whole body to throw with explosiveness but still maintain proper mechanics. Throwing 300 feet for a professional pitcher should not be a big deal. Throwing a ball on a line at 300 feet is equal to about 90 MPH which Mark easily exceeds.

[colbyjack]

Every pitcher is different. Aaron Fitt of Baseball America wrote an awesome story on Gerrit Cole and Trevor Bauer of UCLA as part of his college preview stuff that chronicles the differences between the two, mostly the differences between Bauer (somewhat of a Lincecum clone) and everyone else (the story is free for all to read):

 

http://www.baseballameric...review/2011/2611225.html

 

I know a lot of coaches will shy away from long-tossing, but some individuals, like Rogers, swear by it. TheCrew07 made a nice analogy to football and how throwing at longer distances increases your arm strength, and to add to jericho's point, throwing harder isn't necessarily about exerting more energy. A lot of times when a pitcher "reaches back for a little more," that doesn't just mean they hare trying to throw the ball harder the way people like most of us understand it, but a lot of times it may have more to do with one's mechanics. A pitcher can flick his wrist or alter his arm angle slightly to achieve greater velocity at times, and some days they're able to accomplish this and some days they aren't.

 

So for Rogers playing long toss to achieve greater arm strength, it's not like he's putting every single ounce of effort into his throws to get the ball from left field to right. If you saw Rogers doing his pre-game warmup prior to his first big-league start last year you would have saw him start throwing at 50-60 feet or so, and slowly but surely backing up to the point where he was 200-300 feet away. During this game in particular he was standing on the third base line, roughly halfway between third base and the left field foul pole, throwing to the catcher who was standing roughly in straight away centerfield. To the casual observer, it looked as though he was putting as much effort into his throws at that distance as the ones he was throwing from 50-60 feet away.

 

As an outfielder in high school that is how we built our arm strength, by throwing for extended periods at greater distances. Again, to TheCrew07's point, I was able to throw a lot farther with a lot more velocity and carry at the end of one season than I could at the beginning, and that also carried over from one year to the next.

 

But a lot of coaches will direct people towards the strength and conditioning route. Adding strength through weight training and flexibility than by actually throwing the ball. The same is true for just about any athlete in any sport.

 

If I remember correctly, Rogers was thought to have thrown across his body, in which his overall momentum would carry him more towards the first base bag (third base for lefties) as opposed to directly towards the plate. That counter momentum (ball traveling one way, body another), at least as I understand it, can lead to arm injuries as it did with Kyle Peterson. There are some pitchers who throw across their body or have other so-called mechanical flaws that have relatively healthy and long careers, and it goes back to a debate about whether a pitcher had obvious flaws (like those that said Stephen Strasburg was an injury waiting to happen) or if they are quite simply blessed physically in a way, whatever way that may be, that they aren't as susceptible to injury.

 

That reminds me of an argument you'll see from time to time about people questioning why young pitchers are babied so much with pitch counts these days. They often point to Tom Seaver who was throwing 200+ innings at the age of 20 or so and continued to do so for a very long time. I would argue that was part of the reason he was a Hall of Famer, and it really wasn't that he was handled any differently early in his career. For every Tom Seaver reference you could counter with a Fernando Valenzuela or Doc Gooden one, pointing to a young pitcher who wasn't babied early in their careers only to have their careers significantly derailed before they turned 30 years old.

 

The same goes for Mark Prior, who was believed to have the smoothest mechanics out there, therefore making him a relative safe bet to avoid significant injuries. That didn't work out that well, although that was also tied into the workload conversation, since many believe Dusty Baker burned out his arm too quickly early in his career.

 

And you'll hear other terms like a stab in the back of his delivery, that a pitchers head snaps (pointing to effort) or that he wraps his hand, or even overall terms used to describe a pitcher's delivery, such as a drop-and-drive pitcher. Pitching coaches will try to work with pitchers to correct these problems, or at least get them to the point where they are more workable on a consistent basis. My understanding is that Rogers went back to his old delivery, and similar to young prodigal hitters being left alone because whatever they do seems to work for them, sometimes you have to step back, adding valuable points where and when needed, and let an athlete work the way that is most comfortable to them. As long as everything else (release point, tempo, rhythm, etc.) is consistent.

[jerichoholicninja]

My understanding is that Rogers went back to his old delivery, and similar to young prodigal hitters being left alone because whatever they do seems to work for them, sometimes you have to step back, adding valuable points where and when needed, and let an athlete work the way that is most comfortable to them. As long as everything else (release point, tempo, rhythm, etc.) is consistent.

Great point. When I'm working with pitchers I try not to critique every mistake in their delivery. Basically if a guy is throwing hard and with control the only things I will try and change are anything that could lead to injury. Usually the invert W, which I find to be very common in kids.

[homer]

Not everyone thinks long toss is the end all be all:

 

http://www.pitching.com/a...th-his-pitching-velocity

[DHonks]

I thought Rick Peterson was a big fan of long toss as well

[dadofandrew]

I read that entire article and I do not have Insider. It is somewhere else on the web, do not recall where. I think it was a Twitter link.

 

Copied at a Pirates' forum.

[TheCrew07]

Not everyone thinks long toss is the end all be all:

 

http://www.pitching.com/a...th-his-pitching-velocity

Well there are at least 3 different programs that I'm aware of, a couple were detailed in this thread, and they aren't all that similar. Again, Mark's should be being clean and pain free is probably more important that what throwing program he utilizes, I'm not comfortable claiming that his long toss program added 14 MPH back onto his fastball, but I do think it's fair to claim that it helps him condition the arm and maintain his velocity.

 

I know that it has an impact with the under developed arms, which is about all I see. Kids up here just don't play enough ball outside anymore so that their arms are in any sort of condition to last a football or baseball season. I know from personal experience that my arm was sore from the first day of baseball practice until baseball was over. It sounds stupid, but I thought that's the way it was for everyone and unfortunately my arm speed was declining by the time I was a Sophomore, so I've very sensitive about mechanics and conditioning, trying to protect the boys from suffering my fate. Most baseball players up here don't pickup a ball until March, and those that pitch are on such irregular pitching schedules because of weather all spring and summer that they never really get in a groove, and the good ones end up being abused pitching every other game. I really like the conditioning aspect of long toss for my young men who never come into camp with their arm in good enough condition to make just the throws necessary in 2 a days.

 

To be fair, I've likely listened to over 100 QB coaches give presentations in my years coaching and no one has ever talked about long toss in football. I stole the idea from all the reading I've done about pitching here on this site and other baseball sites I used to frequent in the past. I had some goals in mind to fix some issues in our program, had some ideas about where to get started, and figured out the rest through trial and error with the kids. Without any proper guidelines it took me a couple of years to be able to ball park the proper distance and proper number of throws for each young man. I know I said 30, and that's typically what my starting varsity QB does at near max distance, but the distance and number of throws will vary for each kid in the system... there is no one size fits all program that will work for everyone. In fact it will vary from day to day depending on the workload and what we work on in O groups. The kids that have come through the program bought in though, because 2 of them have graduated college and are coaching now, utilizing the same system.

 

If I had to put long toss into a single sentence I would say that I believe in it because it's the simplest way put all the mechanics of a throw together while maintaining good delivery tempo

coupled with a a focus on finite accuracy. Long toss is relaxed enough that young men can still think their way through the entire throw, but it's fast paced enough that they still get good muscle memory out of it.

 

At any rate, the next time everyone agrees about pitching will be the first time... all we really know is what doesn't work, but even then people can find exceptions to the rule and argue against it, like the debate over pitch counts for young pitchers.

[CWSOmaha]

I was at the WI Baseball Coaches Association Clinic over the weekend. A few speakers/coaches spoke highly of "long tossing". From personal experience and still playing baseball, not softball, at 45 yrs old I have long tossed for years. It has helped keep my arm in shape, and allowed me to still have an arm that can make a long, strong throw. Which isn't always commonplace for someone of my advanced age!

[homer]

My personal opinion is that long toss is probably really good for any position other than pitcher. Pitching is such a downward movement with the arm and everyone else more or less is releasing the ball up first which is what long toss mimics best. I wonder what Mike Marshall thinks of long toss? Probably has a strong opinion one way or the other http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jerichoholicninja]

I was at the WI Baseball Coaches Association Clinic over the weekend. A few speakers/coaches spoke highly of "long tossing". From personal experience and still playing baseball, not softball, at 45 yrs old I have long tossed for years. It has helped keep my arm in shape, and allowed me to still have an arm that can make a long, strong throw. Which isn't always commonplace for someone of my advanced age!

I was there too and have been a couple other times. I've never heard a coach there say a negative thing about long tossing. Some people might not prefer it but I can't see how it can cause any harm unless a player is not very smart with how or how much he does.

[sheetskout]

18 years in organized baseball, and I can say with complete certainty that long-toss was the thing that helped my arm-strength the most.