Andy Pettitte retires

[Invader3K]

So it was announced yesterday that Pettitte has officially decided to retire. I don't think it's a huge surprise since there were rumors going back to before Christmas that he wouldn't be coming back. It also seemed like the Yankees weren't planning on him coming back.

Hall of Famer or not? I would lean towards "no", but I suppose an argument could be made either way.

[crewcrazy]

Based on his production on the field, I would say no, and it's not even all that close for me.

 

It will be interesting to see if a lot of the writers grandstanding against the likes of McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, etc. will turn a blind eye to Pettitte's (admitted) PED use because he was such a nice guy, though. I could totally see a guy like Heyman voting for Pettitte (mainly because he's such a NYY homer) despite his strong anti-PED-voting stance.

[Invader3K]

Well, the big difference is that Pettitte admitted it right away (granted, when he was caught), and said he was sorry. He didn't drag it out or lie.

 

A lot of people will bring up his playoff wins, but I think that's rather meaningless as far as HOF criteria.

[COBrewerfan]

I feel like I have to stick with a "no" for all admitted or found to be PED users. I don't understand why a guy should get a pass just because he admitted it. He still used.

 

Aside from all of that I am not sure he is a Hall of Famer anyways. But it is very close. His postseason was great but I am not sure he was ever the stud I need in order to put a person into the Hall. It seems like all you need these days is to be very good, which is why the Hall has so many members. Too many for me.

[joepepsi]

The Media likes to harp on how great he and Cap'n Intangibles have been in the playoffs, but the reality is they were the same players whether it was regular season or playoff season. Pettitte's playoff ERA 3.88. Career ERA 3.88. Playoff K:BB ratio 2.34. Career K:BB ratio: 2.40.

 

Maybe he deserves HOF consideration. Certainly he had a long successful career as basically, a no. 2 starter, the prime lefty. He's was probably one of the best lefties of his time. Then again, I can't help but think if he'd been a Royal or Brewer for 18 years he'd have had Randy Wolf type numbers.

 

I think Mussina is clear HOF'er, but I bet most Yankee homers will argue Pettitte is mor worthy. Now's when we'll hear all the arguments about the rings and how he's a winner and how that means he's a HOF'er.

[Brian the Automator]

Career 3.88 ERA and 1.35 WHIP? 240 Wins and 2251 K's. Very solid career, but he isn't hitting any of the magic numbers he needs to get in. I was pretty surprised that he only made the all-star game 3 times out of 16 major league seasons.

 

Throw in the PED issue, and it's a definite no from me. I think most voters probably will feel the same way.

[topper09er]

The real question is whether or not you would support Chuck Finley for the HOF because he is almost the same player as Pettitte:

Finley: 3.85 ERA 1.376 WHIP 467 GS 3197 IP 2610 K

Petit: 3.88 ERA 1.357 WHIP 479 GS 3055 IP 2251 K

 

Pettitte's only advantage is he walked less hitters 2.8 BB/9 vs 3.7 for Finley, he gave up less HRs 0.8 HR/9 vs 0.9 for Finley, and all the postseason stuff which is only because he played in NY.

 

Finley better peak years, top 6 years in WAR:

Finley 7.5, 6.6, 6.3, 4.6, 4.4, 4.4

Petit 7.6, 5.8, 5.7, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3

 

And overall lead with 55 WAR to 50.2 for Pettitte

 

Finley also had 63 CGs and 15 SHO vs Pettitte's 25 CG and 4 (!) SHO.

 

 

But Pettitte went 240 - 138 while Finley went 200 - 173 so Pettitte looks better but they are really the same player. Finley got only 1 vote for the HOF but Id guess Pettitte gets somewhere between 10-20% of the vote on his first try.

[JohnBriggs12]

Pettitte's winning percentage of .635 is his best credential as is the fact he never had a losing season in 16 seasons. A lot of that has to do with the teams he was on but I also don't think you can totally ignore a 19-10 record in the postseason either. 240 wins in this era of baseball is also quite impressive.

 

But a pedestrian WHIP of 1.35, a good but not HOF quality 3.88 ERA, will keep him out as will the HGH admission.

[logan82]

All I heard today was how he had 102 more wins than losses and every pitcher with 100 more wins than losses is in the hall of fame. Gah of course he won a lot of games. He played a buttload of games for the Yankees.

[endaround]

He's not really close. Another good year and maybe, but only his Yankee ties will give him areal chance.

[Invader3K]

He's not really close. Another good year and maybe, but only his Yankee ties will give him areal chance.

Agreed. If he played most of his career with even a team like the Cardinals or White Sox (good teams who have made playoffs multiple times in last few years), there wouldn't be any HOF chatter. It's only because he was a Yankee.

[JimH5]

I will miss seeing him peer over the webbing of his glove, cap down over his eyes in the classic Pettitte tv shot. He's not a Hall of Famer--but he had a fine career, and not many guys carry 5 championship rings.

[GAME05]

i was just assuming he was retiring this year because making the playoffs again isn't quite the lock that it used to be.

 

i personally wouldn't give him my HOF vote, but i definitely think he makes it in. just too many voters out there who heavily weight the rings, wins and being a Yankee (i.e, a "winner").

 

i also think his PED use will end up being almost inconsequential by the time he is eligible. once one of Bonds/Clemens gets in, that will open the HOF floodgates to anyone else who was using drugs at the time, too.

[TooLiveBrew]

Pettitte is & has always had the reputation of being just a great guy. I bet sportswriters love him, and that probably factors into whether he'll get in far more than it should. I don't believe he should be in the HoF... as for his chances, I think he's got an outside shot at it.

[RockCoCougars]

Not a HOF by any stretch of the imagination, not even considering the fact that he's an admitted juicer.

[dlk9s]

Not a HOF by any stretch of the imagination, not even considering the fact that he's an admitted juicer.

This.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Definite no in my book, but as mentioned above, i'm in the group that votes a decided "no" on any of the juicers

 

A-Rod, Bonds, Big Mac, Sosa, Clemens, all are and always will be, cheaters.. Give me a David Eckstein or Craig Counsell any day over people that feel they can't succeed without cheating

[Principessa21]

Definite no in my book, but as mentioned above, i'm in the group that votes a decided "no" on any of the juicers

 

A-Rod, Bonds, Big Mac, Sosa, Clemens, all are and always will be, cheaters.. Give me a David Eckstein or Craig Counsell any day over people that feel they can't succeed without cheating

We have no idea whether or not Eckstein or Counsell used, unless you're saying "no" to those caught.

Pettitte was great, but he's not worthy and I don't think he'll be voted in (though he has a better chance with the VC). But I wanted to post to say I agree with joepepsi that Mussina definitely belongs in the Hall. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[GAME05]

considering our beloved Alex Sanchez was the first one caught taking steroids, it's not exactly so easy to point out who did and didn't take them based on a player having a big or skinny body type. and maybe it's also not fair to bar someone like a Clemens or Pettitte solely on the basis of taking steroids when there certainly is or are going to be players in the HOF who used drugs and just never got caught or even suspected.

 

i still think Pettitte makes it in. it seems like HOF standards are getting lower, and that voting a middling player in is almost the PC thing to do, like we don't want to hurt the player's feelings by rejecting them over and over.

[RockCoCougars]

If Pettitte makes the HOF, they lose all credibility as far as I'm concerned. Though in my opinion, it's an automatic DQ, let's forget about the steroid thing for a moment.... The guy didn't win 250 games, never won a Cy Young, and had a career WHIP over 1.3. Going further, you could probably take 25-50 wins off his career total had he not pitched most of his career with the Yankees. Yes, due to the diluted playoff system, he had a lot of playoff wins- he won a little less than half of his playoff starts. His World Series ERA was over 4 as well.

[TooLiveBrew]

Pettitte's career adjusted ERA+ (accounts for era & ballpark) is the same as Gaylord Perry's & is actually higher than Dennis Eckersley, Steve Carlton, & 20 other Hall of Fame pitchers, including Nolan Ryan & Catfish Hunter.

 

Pettitte certainly warrants consideration, especially given his longevity. I think the HGH use will hinder him, but his personality/reputation & admission of HGH use imo will help him.

[endaround]

ERA+ is a bad measure across eras. Why? Because it will harm pitchers who pitched in low ERA settings. If the league average is 3.00 say, its much harder to be 25% better than if the league average is 4.00 because you have a hard limit of 0 and a realistic limit of say1.00.