Jose Reyes

[RockCoCougars]

I wouldn't give up much for Reyes. I think he's pretty overrated, and will undoubtedly be gone after this season anyway. I doubt that he would have the impact that a front line pitcher and/or power bat would have. If the Dodgers tank, I'd rather see them go after Furcal (if healthy) if they must get a shortstop. Though quite a bit older, he's basically the same player as Reyes, and would likely come much cheaper. He might even be signable after the season.

[Invader3K]

I would prefer Furcal as well. Always have liked him.

[TheCrew]

I never saw us landing Greinke, so who knows what could happen. It might not take an elite prospect - that said, if Betancourt can continue to play the way he has, I don't see any reason to make a move. I'd rather ensure that there is a power bat on the bench and make sure the bullpen is all set.

 

Furcal would just make me nervous, so many injuries..........

[StearnsFTW]

NM

[brewerguy71]

I could see a trade that would be Gennett, Scarpetta, Schafer/Komatsu, and PTBNL for Reyes.

Not one of those players mentioned is an impact talent, and the Mets will definitely want impact talent in reutrn for Reyes, if he is dealt. If the Mets were desperate enough to unload him, ala Kansas City last December with Greinke, the Brewers would most likely have to include one of Rivas or Peralta, as well as Scarpetta and a bat. But of the players you mention, you have a utility player, a #4 starter, and two guys who profile as 4th OF's.

 

I think in the end, there will be quite a few contending teams out there that have impact talent in their systems to offer (Reds, Cardinals, Giants, Twins, Rays) who also might need a shortstop, who can easily beat any offer the Brewers might be able to scrape up.

[nate82]

I could see a trade that would be Gennett, Scarpetta, Schafer/Komatsu, and PTBNL for Reyes.

Not one of those players mentioned is an impact talent, and the Mets will definitely want impact talent in reutrn for Reyes, if he is dealt. If the Mets were desperate enough to unload him, ala Kansas City last December with Greinke, the Brewers would most likely have to include one of Rivas or Peralta, as well as Scarpetta and a bat. But of the players you mention, you have a utility player, a #4 starter, and two guys who profile as 4th OF's.

 

I think in the end, there will be quite a few contending teams out there that have impact talent in their systems to offer (Reds, Cardinals, Giants, Twins, Rays) who also might need a shortstop, who can easily beat any offer the Brewers might be able to scrape up.

Gennett is far from a utility player he may not be an impact player but by no means is he a utility player I am not sure what you are talking about with any of the players that I suggested being a utility player. Komatsu and Schafer maybe 4th OF but they are better than what the Mets currently have in their farm system. Scarpetta is as good as Rivas so you just added a #4 starter by your definition to that list. I am rather confident that the Mets are not going to find many teams willing to take on Reyes at the price they will be asking for him. I just do not see all that many teams lining up to get Reyes unless a team really needs a SS. The Mets may get a better return on Beltran than they will with Reyes.

The Rays are not going to trade for Reyes you can count them out that is not even a possibility. The Twins are the Twins they never trade any of their good prospects name the last time the Twins traded for a star player. The Twins will not make a trade like this it does not fit their philosophy as an organization. The Giants are possible but who do they have to trade? They certainly will not trade Belt who would be their biggest trade chip. The Cardinals maybe will do a trade but I believe there are OK with who they got. The Reds look as though they are fine with Janish and Renteria. Again who will be the team that will come in and give the Mets exactly what they want? I just do not see the teams lining up to get Reyes. If the Twins trade for a SS it will be someone like Hardy where they will only have to give away minimal prospects in return for a player not someone like Reyes where they will have to give up a lot.

 

[brewerguy71]

Gennett is the utility player I am referring to. He wont stick at SS most likely, and his bat wont really play anywhere, and thats only if he continues to hit.

 

The Brewers best chance at Reyes is to sign him as a FA during the next offseason.

 

You mention the Mets "getting exactly what they want", but the Brewers have a whole lot of nothing anyone really wants as trading pieces for a major league impact SS.

[TheCrew07]

At what point do we quit trading prospects? We're already in the bottom 5 farm systems in baseball, is the idea to trade anyone that has possible value so we hit rock bottom? I guess that at that point we only have 1 way to go, we would have that concept working for us.

 

At any rate, when we did become a team that can afford to pay market value for impact players all over the field?

[nate82]

Gennett is the utility player I am referring to. He wont stick at SS most likely, and his bat wont really play anywhere, and thats only if he continues to hit.

 

The Brewers best chance at Reyes is to sign him as a FA during the next offseason.

 

You mention the Mets "getting exactly what they want", but the Brewers have a whole lot of nothing anyone really wants as trading pieces for a major league impact SS.

Gennett is not a SS he is a 2B not a SS. His bat plays very well at 2B and he is good defensively there also. So no that does not make him a utility player I think you are thinking of someone completely different.

[brewerguy71]

Youre right about the 2B/SS issue, my mistake. I was confusing him with Farris. Nonetheless, Gennett doesnt profile as an all star or impact player, the type of player the Mets would like for Reyes.

 

I would say he is sort of like the 2B version of Lucroy. Nice player, probably mlb average, but nothing special. Definitely not impact.

[nate82]

At what point do we quit trading prospects? We're already in the bottom 5 farm systems in baseball, is the idea to trade anyone that has possible value so we hit rock bottom? I guess that at that point we only have 1 way to go, we would have that concept working for us.

 

At any rate, when we did become a team that can afford to pay market value for impact players all over the field?

While I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to trade away prospects that the team is already low on it is not like these are can't miss prospects. Weeks is blocking Gennett from moving up though depth isn't a bad thing especially with Weeks injury history with his wrists. Financially the Brewers could take on Reyes contract for this year but the following years no that will not be possible.

[Oxy]

At what point do we quit trading prospects? We're already in the bottom 5 farm systems in baseball, is the idea to trade anyone that has possible value so we hit rock bottom? I guess that at that point we only have 1 way to go, we would have that concept working for us.

 

At any rate, when we did become a team that can afford to pay market value for impact players all over the field?

At this point, we should basically be trading away all of our bats in the minors, yes, if it nets us a half year of Reyes (or another good rental) PLUS two draft picks. It is likely that the two draft picks themselves would be more valuable in the long term than any of our bats in the minors right now. We have the core of our team signed and under control for the next few years. The guys in the minors right now aren't any better than waiver wire material anyway except for MAYBE Gennett (and our pitchers). If some team is willing to take on a bunch of them hoping somebody works out better than they are projected to I absolutely think we should empty the cupboard. We are trying to win a World Series, and if we can stockpile draft picks at the same time all the better. We need to re-stock the farm through the draft; not hold on to the scraps that we have hoping that they develop tools that they just don't have.

[TheCrew07]

At this point, we should basically be trading away all of our bats in the minors, .

What bats? Where's a Brett Lawrie to trade for another impact MLB player?

 

if it nets us a half year of Reyes (or another good rental) PLUS two draft picks. It is likely that the two draft picks themselves would be more valuable in the long term than any of our bats in the minors right now.

Yep that whole Sheets, Sabathia, Linebrink, Lopez draft pick thing has worked out wonderfully for the farm system. I have a major problem discussing draft picks like they are certainty, or that their value can be adequately qualified, when in truth they are incredibly risky propositions and incredibly difficult to quantify. The whole "it's okay to trade prospects because we'll get them back" argument has proven to be one of the biggest phalacies tossed around on this site. We can certainly trade excess/redundant talent, but we still need to be able to cycle impact talent back into the system. We went from one of the best farm systems in baseball to one of the worst, part of that is natural cycle as players graduate, but that's not the case here. We've had plenty of time to recover from Weeks, Fielder, Braun, and Hardy moving from prospect to MLB players, 6 years now, but we've only slid farther down each year. Comp picks for FA signings are not typically going to hit MLB within 2 years, even best case, so where's the help going to come from post 2012? To get impact talent later in the draft we are typically looking at drafting HS players like Odorizzi and Lawrie, the top 15 picks are protected and that's where the Weeks and Braun type college players get drafted. Players like Odorizzi and Lawrie will take time to develop at their own pace, and the upredictability of the learning curve is reason to possess more legit prospects, not fewer.

 

For example, of the first 6 picks in the 2008 draft (3 1st round and 3 2nd round), only Seth Lintz is left in the system, and he hasn't pitched above rookie ball yet, with poor results. The 3rd round pick Logan Schafer looks to have an MLB future, we gave away 4th rounder Josh Romanski for nothing, 5th rounder Maverick Lasker looks to be a back of the rotation type if he makes it. Remember this was the draft that was going to help rebuild the organization's depth after the Sabathia trade... Lawrie became Marcum who should be a 2 year rental, and Odorizzi (who was our best pitching prospect in my opinion) was included in the Greinke deal, and what kind of realistic opportunity do we have to resign him? He looks to be a 2 year rental as well, he'll be long gone while Jeffress, Odorizzi, and Cain are tearing it up for KC. Not to mention there's still realistic hope for Escobar as well.

The guys in the minors right now aren't any better than waiver wire material anyway except for MAYBE Gennett.....We need to re-stock the farm through the draft; not hold on to the scraps that we have hoping that they develop tools that they just don't have.

Gennett isn't an impact prospect today, he's a defensively challenged 20 year old with an intriguing bat for his limited stature. What exactly does claiming prospects who aren't ready for MLB aren't better than replacement players prove? Circular doubletalk anyone? Every MLB player was once a prospect, every prospect has their own time table, and the Brewers need a steady stream of impact prospects to keep the MLB team competitive year in and year out. I fully understand that prospects will fail, but that's exactly why we need as many options as possible, for every Yo there is a Parra. I certainly agree that we need to build with the draft, but there are very few instant fixes that come through the MLB draft, players are years away from contributing in most circumstances. Futhermore, good GMs don't make quantity for quality deals, or at least the GMs I consider to be good, so what we're really hoping for here is to hoodwink someone? For the most part the impact talent we have left in the system is pitching, and as I've stated numerous times, I don't believe we can trade pitching for pitching and get ahead of curve, and we certainly can't trade pitching for hitting and get there. You're pretty new around here, but if you're suggesting that I'm one of the people who's unrealistic about a given player's tools, then I'm sorry but you really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

We are trying to win a World Series, and if we can stockpile draft picks at the same time all the better

That's a nice theory, but where's the practical application of it? The Marlins? Much has changed in baseball since they made that model work 6 years apart. Reyes doesn't make the Brewers a WS team all by himself, and isn't WS series talk for a team that's below .500 a little premature? I've very wary of ever claiming that we're "1 player away", sports are too unpredictable for that kind of certainty. At any rate, I'm much more concerned with building a strong organziation with a constant cycle of impact talent than I am perpetually selling prospects every year hoping to catch lightening bottle and get lucky in a single season. I'm absolutely fine trading prospects, but only for the appropriate targets. I believe that starting pitching > hitting > bullpen, but also believe that Greinke type deals will cripple a small market like the Brewers in the long term. I'd much rather be trading prospects for prospects than trading 4 prospects for any one MLB player. Don't get me wrong, now that Greinke is here I want to him succeed, but that doesn't mean that I agree with the premise of his acquisition at all, and I've been beating the pitching drum longer than most.

[Oxy]

I understand where you are coming from on the grand scheme of things, Crew, but it's too late for that right now. Our "impact" players of the future are Weeks and Braun with Hart and Gallardo helping out. We likely aren't going to be able to sign any impact players, and we don't have any impact prospects on the farm right now. So, there are only two ways to get more impact prospects: trade for them and draft them. If we are under .500 in July I hope we can flip Prince for some quality prospects, but I just don't see that happening.

 

As far as why the strategy didn't work with Sheets, Sabathia, Linebrink, Lopez(who? Felipe?), it's partially because Sheets was hurt and didn't sign, and because the Yankees signed Teixera. You know that. But it's MOSTLY because our scouting apparently stunk and we drafted duds. Sorry to say, but if that is the case, our farm system will NEVER be good. You have to draft well, and the more picks you get, the more likely it is that some of them work out. If we can trade filler prospects for quality rentals and subsequent draft picks, I don't see how that could be a bad thing. We got 4 years of all-star (if not Cy Young) quality pitching by basically giving up Lawrie, Odorizzi, and 3 filler guys. I don't think it is totally out of the question to be able to be able to get .5 years of someone like Reyes for a 2-4 filler type players. Heck, we got Nyjer Morgan for basically nothing. Not that Nyjer is great shakes or anything, but those are the types of deals that would make a lot of sense right now, especially for some reserve defensive infield help. How could you argue with that?

 

I realize that you don't like the philosophy of a small market club trading prospects, but we did, and we (should) have a good team right now. We also have a crappy farm system. How do YOU propose that we change that now? If we can hold on to our top 3-4 pitching prospects, I'd basically trade the rest of the farm for rentals with expiring contracts who will net us more picks. I don't really see any other way to improve the system, and hopefully it will improve our current major league ballclub as well.

[The Truth]

I would think of Nyjer Morgan, if used properly (i.e. only hitting vs rhp) could be somewhat an "impact" player of the future. We have him for several years, and he has alot of potential, again if used properly

 

But anyways, I'd be all for trading away hitting prospects for half a year of Reyes or Furcal, and less inclined to trade pitchers. Definitely would not deal Rivas and likely not Rogers. Maybe Estrada could be part of a deal?

[Raw Biz]

I would think of Nyjer Morgan, if used properly (i.e. only hitting vs rhp) could be somewhat an "impact" player of the future. We have him for several years, and he has alot of potential, again if used properly

I understand that we have him for a few more years, which is nice, but he will be 31 in July. I don't think there's much potential left in people over the age of 30. He is what he is, which is a guy who can play good defense, get on base, and use his speed, but basically only against RHP like you said. He's definitely useful but I don't know if I would say "impact" and I definitely wouldn't say he has a lot more potential left.

[The Truth]

He's definitely useful but I don't know if I would say "impact" and I definitely wouldn't say he has a lot more potential left.

Yeah, you are probably right.

 

I do think Gamel has the potential to be an "impact" bat, as well as Hart.

[Raw Biz]

I agree with Gamel but not with Hart. Like I've said in previous posts, I just don't see him coming close to last year's numbers. He's probably closer to his late 08/09 numbers, maybe slightly better. I don't like his plate discipline whatsoever.

[bucksman4]

I would deal Prince straight up for Jose Reyes. Let's face it, we all know Prince is gone anyways. Reyes is a free agent after season's end and I believe that we can resign him. He obviously won't command Prince money and would solidify a clear black hole position for Milwaukee by plugging him in at SS for the next 10 years. Plus, it shifts our team from power-only to a team that may have the ability to manufacture runs and not just rely on a long-ball.

You can have Reyes lead off and move Rickie to the 3 hole and push Braun back to 4. Your lineup still looks really good.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, but why would the Mets want to deal for Prince at this point when they have Ike Davis?

 

Reyes would be awesome on this team right now, but I don't see how we are a fit for a trade with the Mets.

[bucksman4]

Yeah, but why would the Mets want to deal for Prince at this point when they have Ike Davis?

 

Reyes would be awesome on this team right now, but I don't see how we are a fit for a trade with the Mets.

Great point. I was moreso speaking to the value I put on Reyes for this Brewers team. I know NYM is not a good fit as a trade partner for Prince with Davis in the fold. What other package would entice NYM?

[Invader3K]

They'll probably want prospects. Given their financial problems, they aren't going to be looking to take on tons of salary or anything like that.

 

I think our cupboard is just too bare in the minors right now, unless they would settle for lower level guys. I wouldn't want to see us give up Gamel, Gindl, Rivas, etc.

[Invader3K]

Is it worth bumping this thread? The Mets are 25-28 right now in a very tough NL East. Betancourt is putting up possibly worse offensive numbers than expected, while Reyes is red hot and leads the league in several categories. I wonder if Melvin will be making a phone call to the Mets soon. As my post above speculates, I'm not sure there is a good trade fit here, though.

[nate82]

Is it worth bumping this thread? The Mets are 25-28 right now in a very tough NL East. Betancourt is putting up possibly worse offensive numbers than expected, while Reyes is red hot and leads the league in several categories. I wonder if Melvin will be making a phone call to the Mets soon. As my post above speculates, I'm not sure there is a good trade fit here, though.

Maybe but the Dodgers also look to be out of it so Furcal should also be available which is a good thing for the Brewers. Of the teams that are in the race for a division or wild card right now that need a SS are the Brewers, Tigers, Giants, and Cardinals. The Giants are a somewhat real possibility but they really haven't given up a lot of talent recently for one player. They maybe more desperate right now with Sandoval out and with Posey out for the year. The Tigers also need some SS help I believe they will be looking at Reyes here as he would be almost perfect for them at the top of their lineup. The Cardinals may go all in and try to win another World Series with Pujols but they need pitching help more so than they need a SS if they want to do that as Lohse and others are going to fall back down to Earth soon. As for the Brewers they may have some pieces that the Mets will want but I don't believe the Brewers have all of the pieces needed.

I think Furcal maybe more of a possibility if the Dodgers are out of it in July maybe even Hardy as he won't be all that expensive either. With Hardy though I believe either the Giants or the Cardinals will pick him up as he will be someone that will cost very little in prospects.

 

[Invader3K]

I would love to see Furcal in a Brewers uniform (even as a rental). I just don't know what the Dodgers would be looking for in exchange.