Brewers sign Mark Kotsay; Latest -- RHP Roque Mercedes clears waivers, remains Milwaukee property

[PeaveyFury]

Just pointing out that the reaction in this thread is almost exactly the reaction to both the Gabe Kapler and Jim Edmonds signings in the past few years....

[logan82]

I still hate the Edmonds signing.

[brewmann04]

Well it Looks that Cruz could be the backup Infielder and Gamel gets a full Year in 3a to learn his new position.

[Oldcity]

Gamel is probably the fifth best hitter in the organization. Keeping him in AAA is absurd.

[trwi7]

Just pointing out that the reaction in this thread is almost exactly the reaction to both the Gabe Kapler and Jim Edmonds signings in the past few years....

 

Are you sure? From the Edmonds thread.

 

I like it. Edmonds will provide some much needed power off the bench. Although we have a ton of lefties on the bench, we dont have so many in the lineup. Wouldnt mind seeing him playing for Hart once or twice a week.

I like the addition. In 349 PAs in 2008, Edmonds hit RHP to the tune of .250/.362/.521/.883, with a BABIP of .258 -- compared to a career .324. Basically, he was horrible with the Padres (esp. at PetCo Park), and then he was great with the Cubs. I'm not expecting him to mash righties to that extent, but I think Melvin just added another OF bat capable of OPSing in the .800s against righties. As long as Edmonds primarily backs up the corner spots (I agree with Jason that it's inevitable that Macha will play him in CF too), I think it's a nice pickup.

Shot in the dark. I'm okay with that.

I love this move. I really think that Jim Edmonds is the type of hitter who would thrive in Miller Park. Let's hope he still has something left.

I've got to admit I like the signing quite a bit. Is Edmonds defense in CF still going to be passable or better? If so it will be nice to have him as a backup plan (potential platoonmate) for Gomez. I would like to keep Gerut as the 4th outfielder. I am expecting or more likely guessing that Hart and Gerut will be in a more or less platoon in RF so I'd rather not have him in CF subbing for Gomez if Gomez flops.

I guess it can't hurt to see what he has in spring training. If his bat is still strong, he could be a good, cheap bench option.

I like it as a low-risk, high-reward signing. I was hoping we'd sign him last year in case Hart had an off-year... Hope he does well and provides us with a threat off the bench!

 

I don't get the hand wringing on this one. It's relatively low risk for the Brewers, and it seemed like they wanted to add another lefty bat as a possible option.

No risk + high reward = good move

How can anyone be against this move?

 

It's only a minor league contract and if Edmonds looks completely done in spring training, the team just lets him go.

 

I hope Edmonds shows something because he could be a great bench option given he has some power, is very patient at the plate, and probably has the range left to be a good defender in RF and tolerable enough to start a few games in CF to give Gomez days off against some RH pitchers.

 

If he sucks, he gets cut and the brewers arent out anything. If he's still decent, we win.

 

win win situation folks

Really not a big risk here as far as I can see. From what I understand, he sat out in 2009 because he did not get an offer to his liking. I also understand that he showed up at some StL charity event and told LaRussa he would play for minimum wage. Apparently the Cards didn't take him up on that. So, I would think he would really be out to prove all the nay sayers wrong this year.

Why not? I'd rather have him than a pile of garbage like Duffy or Bourgeois who bookended last season "stealing" at bats from guys. At least Edmonds has proven that he can hit MLB pitching in the past.

I don't get why people think this is a stupid signing. It's a no-lose deal, as several others have said. If his skills truly are gone, he's not around.

 

Best of all, he's reasonably cheap and much more likely to succeed than the Duffys & Bourgeoises of our recent past.

I like this signing. I don't like it "a lot" but I like it. There is little risk in a minor league deal for a 39-year old former (super?)-star.

I was very suprised and excited when I heard about the signing. This could potentially be a huge move, I think the people that don't like the pick up will change their minds after a few weeks of the season.

Because it's a low risk signing, I don't have a big problem with this. However, taking a year off at Edmond's age in a game that relies so much on timing is never a good thing. I'd be mildly surprised if he'd put up a .750-ish OPS even if he were protected from lefties.

 

That's not even the whole thread and I don't feel like digging up the Kapler thread, but there were quite a few who supported the Edmonds signing.

 

My problem with Kotsay is he can't play defense and his bat sucks too, so why exactly did we give him a major league deal?

 

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

The point being that in each case, there were a lot of people wondering why we even bothered, and then they came in and contributed nicely. No guarantee that Kotsay will perform, but unless they gave him gobs of money, I don't see the harm/risk.

[TooLiveBrew]

But with Edmonds, there was evidence & reason to expect that he could succeed. That's not the case with Kotsay.

[jwill535]

But with Edmonds, there was evidence & reason to expect that he could succeed. That's not the case with Kotsay.

Same could be said about Gamel at this point.

 

Would you rather Gamel rot on the bench or down in AAA learning a new position and playing everyday with the probable call up when someone eventually gets hurt.

[RockCoCougars]

Kotsay was a decent player a few years back, but he's never had really any power to speak of. I think the Brewers need a power bat to come off the bench, and Kotsay is most definitely not that. As I said above, he will probably hold down the role that the Cat did a couple of years ago. I'm kind of surprised that both Boggs and Kotsay got major league deals, because I cannot see all three of Boggs, Kotsay and Dickerson making the roster unless there is some type of injury.

[bork]

TH mentioned that Boggs has an option left.

[TooLiveBrew]

Would you rather Gamel rot on the bench or down in AAA learning a new position and playing everyday with the probable call up when someone eventually gets hurt.

 

It's not exactly a secret that I'll disagree with you on Gamel overall, but I do think him getting familiar in the field at 1B is a good long-term move. However, that didn't mean the Brewers needed to sign Mark freaking Kotsay. He's had 5 bad seasons in a row, and can't realistically be expected to have gotten better. I'm still holding out hope this is a split deal & has just been mis-reported so far.

 

While they're relatively insignificant deals, having Kotsay & Betancourt on the 25-man roster are decisions I can't get behind. The margin for error is really close to zero, so why Melvin & Co. would risk going with proven bad players is beyond me.

[PrinceEatMeat]

TH mentioned that Boggs has an option left.

Not true. He has no options remaining. McCalvy also originally reported this, but later retracted it, saying Jim from this site corrected him.

[MNBrew]

barring a major injury to jonathan lucroy (and a trip to the 60-day disabled list), the brewers are going to have to remove a catcher from the 40-man roster before the end of spring training (wil nieves or george kottaras) . . . which would obviously clear up a roster spot. too bad that decision can't be made now with the assurances that the three remaining catchers are all guaranteed to be 100% healthy come opening day.

Nieves or Kottaras off the 40-man? More likely to be Maldonado, whose skill isn't much different than several NRI catchers, which, combined with his acumen as the camp barber, still hardly warrants a 40-man spot.

 

Assuming it's what happens, I don't think outrighting Maldonado off the 40-man's going to alter his status in the organization at all.

[Mass Haas]

Nieves or Kottaras off the 40-man? More likely to be Maldonado, whose skill isn't much different than several NRI catchers, which, combined with his acumen as the camp barber, still hardly warrants a 40-man spot.

 

Assuming it's what happens, I don't think outrighting Maldonado off the 40-man's going to alter his status in the organization at all.

Here's why the light-hitting Maldonado was added to the 40-man roster this past offseason in the first place. Even though he won't be 25 years old until August, the premier defender has his seven years of service time in (early on with the Angels, then with the Brewers). I'm sure that after the 2010 season, the Brewers tried to have Maldonado sign a minor league deal for 2011. His agent wisely held out, and on or near the final day before players qualified for minor league free agency, the Brewers added him to their 40-man roster to retain his rights. Maldonado's bat showed signs of life in the second half of 2010, and it's unlikely that the signing of Wil Nieves would alter the Brewers' thinking from last November 3rd.

 

I'd be very surprised if Maldonado would be removed at this point, as the Brewers would probably lose him via waiver claim or Maldonado's right to choose free agency. Money is still on Roque Mercedes, who already slipped past half the teams in baseball to the Brewers this offseason, and whose rights the Brewers would still control if he passed through waivers.

 

 

[JohnBriggs12]

Alert to Gregmag, I'm about to throw out meaningless stats:

 

Kotsay at Miller Park: 10 for 24 (.417), 1.107 OPS.

 

Kotsay at Minute Maid: 28 for 75 (.373), 1.041 OPS

 

Kotsay has been a Brewer killer. Overall against the Brewers he's 47 for 134, with 6 HR, 25 RBI, and a .998 OPS (.351/.393/.604). Certainly those claiming he can't hit aren't basing it on what they've seen vs. the Brewers. He's also been good vs. the Astros (.863), and the Reds (.850), not bad against the Cubs (.764), Pirates (.761), and rather mediocre (.717) vs. the Cardinals.

 

Look, he's a solid veteran bench bat. He's had plenty of post season experience meaning he's not going to be overwhelmed in big situations. He's had success as a PH which will be his primary role. He can still play the field well enough in a pinch. I don't expect him to be used nearly as much as Edmonds was last year, but remember Edmonds couldn't throw at all anymore.

 

He's more likely to allow them to option out Gamel than replace Boggs on the roster.

[djoctagone]

Nieves or Kottaras off the 40-man? More likely to be Maldonado, whose skill isn't much different than several NRI catchers, which, combined with his acumen as the camp barber, still hardly warrants a 40-man spot.

 

Assuming it's what happens, I don't think outrighting Maldonado off the 40-man's going to alter his status in the organization at all.

if maldonado is outrighted, the brewers (assuming they carry only two catchers on the 25-man roster, and one of them is lucroy) will be left with no other catchers on the 40-man roster. you can option lucroy, and you can option maldonado . . . but that means both kottaras and nieves make the 25-man roster.

 

i'd feel a lot better about having catching depth on the 40-man roster (in maldonado) throughout the entire season, rather than having to purchase the contract of a catcher during the season and deal with a potential roster space dilemma.

[LouisEly]

Gamel is probably the fifth best hitter in the organization. Keeping him in AAA is absurd.

Some people around here think we should keep everyone in the minors until they are out of options instead of breaking camp with the 25 players consisting of the best at each position/role. So that way we can suck the first two months of the season and be out of the race by June... but then we don't have to pay for a Super Two!

[greeg35]

If we're not going to stick him at shortstop, I'd rather have him in the minors learning the position he'll be starting at next year. Learning to play major league defense is part of the equation (replacing Betancourt notwithstanding). If the Kotsay signing results in a release of Nieves, I'm all for it.

[PrinceEatMeat]

If we're not going to stick him at shortstop, I'd rather have him in the minors learning the position he'll be starting at next year. Learning to play major league defense is part of the equation (replacing Betancourt notwithstanding). If the Kotsay signing results in a release of Nieves, I'm all for it.

Amen to that. I hated the Nieves signing. I'd rather just go with Kottaras again. I think the Kotsay signing actually costs both Gamel and Boggs roster spots most likely. Cruz will likely get the last spot now, because he can actually play all the infield positions. I don't see us keeping 6 outfielders and only 5 infielders.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Really, we don't even need to Kotsay to play the field all that much. Dickerson can handle the field as a platoon mate with Gomez and as the 4th outfielder. I'd only give Kotsay a few spot starts in RF or LF. He'll likely just fill a Frank Cattalanotto role for us as a primary pinch-hitter. We'd probably be better off just keeping Cruz then as a right-handed option off the bench, and as insurance in the infield.

[trwi7]

BTW, Joe Inglett >>>>>> Mark Kotsay and would cost the same. So why did we go with Kotsay over Inglett?

[logan82]

Because of his veterany grittiness and that.

[monty57]

The reason we picked up Nieves in the first place was our new manager's desire to have someone with experience as a backup catcher. While I'd rather we keep Kottaras, I think Nieves will get the job. I do wonder whether Roenicke's preference for a "veteran presence" at a backup position also had something to do with the Kotsay signing.

[logan82]

I don't think most people have a problem with a good veteran. The problem is they completely ignored "good" and just went veteran.

[gregmag]

Alert to Gregmag, I'm about to throw out meaningless stats:

 

Kotsay at Miller Park: 10 for 24 (.417), 1.107 OPS.

 

Kotsay at Minute Maid: 28 for 75 (.373), 1.041 OPS

 

Kotsay has been a Brewer killer. Overall against the Brewers he's 47 for 134, with 6 HR, 25 RBI, and a .998 OPS (.351/.393/.604). Certainly those claiming he can't hit aren't basing it on what they've seen vs. the Brewers. He's also been good vs. the Astros (.863), and the Reds (.850), not bad against the Cubs (.764), Pirates (.761), and rather mediocre (.717) vs. the Cardinals.

 

Look, he's a solid veteran bench bat. He's had plenty of post season experience meaning he's not going to be overwhelmed in big situations. He's had success as a PH which will be his primary role. He can still play the field well enough in a pinch. I don't expect him to be used nearly as much as Edmonds was last year, but remember Edmonds couldn't throw at all anymore.

 

He's more likely to allow them to option out Gamel than replace Boggs on the roster.

FWIW, here's why I don't like stats like that: (1) Small sample. (2) Stats skewed by age. All players are declining at age 35, most of them very rapidly, lots of them falling off the table every year. I don't mean to insult Kotsay; that he's even playing at 35 says a lot for him. But a stat that he built up as a younger man has little relevance for a 35 year-old. (3) Hitter vs. team stats are shaky because the pitchers change up so much that the matchups, over several years, verge on random. Every once in a while a hitter really seems to "get" a particular park. That's a hard phenomenon to prove statistically, but it's meaningful if you can figure it out. So no, I don't think those stats are at all useful.

 

I don't see how anybody who wants the Brewers to win could prefer Mark Kotsay on the 25-man roster over Mat Gamel, or even over Chris Dickerson if it comes to that. But obviously a lot of smart people think otherwise, so maybe I'm missing something. I'm willing to bet that, if the Brewers do end up winning anything, one (or both) of those two guys will end up making a bigger contribution than Kotsay. It would be a different question if Kotsay could still play a strong CF, or could play any other skill position, but I don't see any evidence that he can. This is another one of those signings that seems to be about the mythical value of veteran experience, with absolutely nothing real to back it up.