Angels trade Mike Napoli and Juan Rivera to Jays for Vernon Wells and $5M; Blue Jays trade Napoli to Rangers for Francisco and cash

[crewcrazy]

This is awesome -- Angels beat writer for the Orange County Register compiles a word cloud for trade reactions from both Angels and Jays fans. He says he couldn't include a certain word from the Angels fan side, but if he could, it would have been massive.

[buckeyesteve]

my favorite in the comments section:

 

Seriously? says:

January 22, 2011 at 8:48 pm

Angels fans are the worst in all of baseball hands down. But they are right in being upset with this deal. This is possibly the 2nd worst deal in MLB history. The first being the Blue Jays signing Wells for 120+Million.

 

 

had to laugh at that one.

[monty57]

It's funny, but as I read this and think about Wells' contract all I can think of is the team that, 4-5 years from now will still be locked into paying Fielder $25MM / year for the next 3-4 seasons. Oh, and the Cubs still having to pay Soriano until he's around 40 years old.

 

I honestly can't understand what the Angels are thinking. Wells even recently admitted that he was seriously overpaid. I guess when you have a ridiculous monetary advantage over most other teams, contracts aren't nearly as much of a worry.

[RyDogg66]

I found the words Pearl Harbor in the Angels cloud. That is hilarious.

[Funketown]

My favorite from the word clouds: Hahahahahahahaha

[KCBrewerfan34]

Angels have alot of money coming off the books after 2012 so I guess they think they can afford this move. Maybe they've seen the FA's in 2012 etc... but man thats a HUGE contract to swallow

[pitchleague]

 

I agree, it is ridiculous, like when the Braves traded away Yunel Escobar to the Blue Jays.

Yes, but Escobar was traded by the Braves because of his attitude and the way he was treating teammates in the clubhouse. Bobby Cox hated the guy.

[owbc]

Why didn't we try to trade Suppan to them?

[monty57]

obsessedwithbrewcrew]Why didn't we try to trade Suppan to them?

Maybe we can trade them the right to pay his buyout for a low-level minor leaguer.

[Thurston Fluff]

It isn't hard to see it's lopsided but if a team who has been pretty good the last decade did it there has to be some sort of logic behind it. I simply don't buy the idea they are totally idiots. Thus there has to be some reason for doing this.

Getting past the money spent isn't Wells likely to help them win more games this season? I get the money is totally out of whack for what he brings but the Angels are not mid market. They have resources. They are not going to be out of the running for future FA's because of it are they? Terrible trade value wise but not necessarily production wise in the short term.

[TooLiveBrew]

Thus there has to be some reason for doing this

 

My guess is that it's due to 1) his bounce-back season at the plate, and 2) that he probably still has the reputation of being a good defender. However, all the fielding data suggests he's been, at best, below average for three consecutive seasons. He'd probably be about average at a corner spot, which is probably where he's going to play unless Hunter gets injured.

 

In related news, Mike Napoli is moving from a home park with a 2010 HR park factor of .825 to one at 1.358 (23rd & 4th in MLB, respectively). He could easily hit 30 bombs this coming season. Napoli already led MLB catchers in 2010 with 26 HRs; Brian McCann was second with 21. Only 4 catchers (Victor Martinez & former Blue Jay John Buck are the others) hit 20 or more last season.

[berniebrewer4life]

Wells isn't a platoon player. He's not worth close to those numbers but he did have a bounce back year in 2010.

His stats scream platoon player.

 

Vs LHP 643 OPS last year(OPS+ of 56)

 

Vs RHP .895 OPS(OPS+ of 111)

 

And like you said, that's bounce back numbers. He was hovering around a 600 OPS vs lefties in 09.

[kramnoj]

It isn't hard to see it's lopsided but if a team who has been pretty good the last decade did it there has to be some sort of logic behind it.

 

I think the logic is that they were prepared to spend over $20M on an OF for 4 or 5 years. They were just prepared to do it for Crawford. Once Crawford got more years and the Angels didn't feel comfortable with Beltre, they figured they had a budget to spend, and went and got Wells. After all, he's an OF, and he comes at the price they were willing to pay.

 

One problem though, is treating Wells like he had value, and giving up actual talent to get him.

 

Getting past the money spent isn't Wells likely to help them win more games this season?

 

I don't know if it's likely. Napoli has produced more wins than Wells over the last three years, per fangraphs.com

I get the money is totally out of whack for what he brings but the Angels are not mid market. They have resources.

 

Sometimes even the Yankees have to make choices. Years ago, they had the budget for Beltran or Randy Johnson. They couldn't afford both.

 

They are not going to be out of the running for future FA's because of it are they?

 

This may not take them out of the Fielder race, but it would then certainly impact the money available to build the rest of the team.

[CheezWizHed]

This is awesome -- Angels beat writer for the Orange County Register compiles a word cloud for trade reactions from both Angels and Jays fans.

 

I just want to know who got the Ninja?

[Tedaldtada]

Could this be the first sign that Ron Roenicke was actually the brains of the operation over there?

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't know if it's likely. Napoli has produced more wins than Wells over the last three years, per fangraphs.com

 

Looking at wins above replacement is not my favorite measurement but it is even less useful when comparing two separate positions on a team. It isn't as easy as to say player A has two wins above replacement and player B three so the team will win one more game with player B. Who would replace each player if they weren't there is a large part of that. Filling team needs plays a larger role to wins than simply getting highest WAR guys regardless of how many catcher/1st basemen types that might mean.

The comparison shouldn't be between Napoli and Wells. It should be the comparison between Napoli and another outfielder vs Conger and Wells. Conger is knocking on the door and seems to have the on base skills to help there. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of Angel minor league players but if he is even close to average as a catcher he'll improve the defense as well.

 

 

I am not trying to defend the trade as I agree it isn't a good one. I am trying to understand it. I simply do not believe teams who have shown they are competent enough to put a decent run together are just plain stupid. Looking at it from the perspective that it will help them win more games short term it makes some amount of sense.

 

However, all the fielding data suggests he's been, at best, below average for three consecutive seasons.

 

And before that 4 consecutive good seasons. Either he somehow forgot how to play defense or something else is going on. I would guess the Angels think they know why and believe he can revert back to form.

[TooLiveBrew]

Either he somehow forgot how to play defense or something else is going on. I would guess the Angels think they know why and believe he can revert back to form.

 

Unless they've discovered the fountain of youth, I don't see how they can correct what's caused him to decline defensively.

[Thurston Fluff]

He would have been 29 when the decline in defense started. I really don't believe 29 is where age related decline in defense starts. Going forward he has to keep his legs which may be harder to do age 33 vs age 29 but age was never the problem with his defense. Injury and inconsistency were.

[Funketown]

He would have been 29 when the decline in defense started. I really don't believe 29 is where age related decline in defense starts. Going forward he has to keep his legs which may be harder to do age 33 vs age 29 but age was never the problem with his defense. Injury and inconsistency were.

I think some people have looked into this lately, and found that it's actually even younger (like 26-28). I can't give a link, but perhaps somebody else can.

[NYChez]

Another deal (Werth is another) that makes the Hart contract look like a bargain. The Brewers owe Hart about $35 million less over the next 3 years than the Angels owe Wells. Hart has had better offensive years than Wells in 3 of the last 4 seasons.

[cwolf2012]

backupcatchers, the defensive decline happens very early in baseball. For most outfielders, age 27 or so (as stated earlier) is when you should start to see the talent start to drop off. Three seasons of subpar defense is a pretty good indication that he actually plays subpar defense. Could it be a 3 year fluke? Absolutely. Is there good reason to think it is other than pure hope? Not really.

 

I'm of the opinion that falling off the face of the earth was inevitable for the Angels. Their manager and GM clearly don't use advanced stats in any way to quantify the value of their players. They play small ball in the early innings of games. Their run was based a lot on their pitching, which is starting to catch up with them now that everyone is older.

 

Scioscia gets a lot of love from a lot of people, but I can tell you right now that I wouldn't want him managing the Brewers. It's what makes me a bit concerned about Roenicke. He could very easily be Scioscia 2.0.

[Thurston Fluff]

Scioscia gets a lot of love from a lot of people, but I can tell you right now that I wouldn't want him managing the Brewers. It's what makes me a bit concerned about Roenicke. He could very easily be Scioscia 2.0.

 

Madden could have as well I guess. They had a terrible offense last season. Poor OBP and Slugging which is why Wells may help. Even if it isn't enough to justify his salary of what they paid to get him.

 

I think some people have looked into this lately, and found that it's actually even younger (like 26-28). I can't give a link, but perhaps somebody else can.

 

That's interesting. I have no reason to doubt you but that make little sense to me. Why would people with more experience and no physical decline suddenly decline in an area whose two prime requisites are experience and physical ability? That does change things a bit though.

[trwi7]

And Napoli is being traded again. This time to the Rangers for Frank Francisco and cash.

 

Alex Anthoupolis is doing an amazing job with the Blue Jays.

[danzig6767]

backupcatchers, the defensive decline happens very early in baseball. For most outfielders, age 27 or so (as stated earlier) is when you should start to see the talent start to drop off. Three seasons of subpar defense is a pretty good indication that he actually plays subpar defense. Could it be a 3 year fluke? Absolutely. Is there good reason to think it is other than pure hope? Not really.

 

I'm of the opinion that falling off the face of the earth was inevitable for the Angels. Their manager and GM clearly don't use advanced stats in any way to quantify the value of their players. They play small ball in the early innings of games. Their run was based a lot on their pitching, which is starting to catch up with them now that everyone is older.

 

Scioscia gets a lot of love from a lot of people, but I can tell you right now that I wouldn't want him managing the Brewers. It's what makes me a bit concerned about Roenicke. He could very easily be Scioscia 2.0.

Yea they've had a lot of good pitching for awhile, but it's not like they've generally had unproductive offenses being carried just by pitching. In 2007 they were 4th in the AL in runs scored and in 2009 they were 2nd in runs scored. They've also had a couple of middle of the pack years and two below average years during their run of success. I'm to lazy to look up all their years of team defense during all their success, but off the top of my head, their organization seems to have put a higher priority on defense than other teams have, even if it came at the expense of some offensive production. They never went say a Brewers type of route of accumulating lots of productive hitters, but many of whom struggled quite a bit to be even just average defensively, much less be plus defenders.

 

I certainly would hate this Wells trade if i was an Angels fan, but overall i'd loved to have been a fan of that team from 2004-2009 regardless if some weren't a fan of their style of play. The style of play i'm the biggest fan of is winning and the Angels did tons of that, winning 90 plus games every year from 2004-2009 except for 2006 when they fell one game short and won 89 games.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think they've been helped most by playing in a pretty weak division. They've had some good teams but playing most of their games against Texas and Seattle and Oakland's off years helped a lot.