Garza traded to the Cubs; Archer, Guyer, Chirinos, Lee, Fuld to Tampa

[wOOgiE22]

The Cubs have acquired Matt Garza, a minor league pitcher and outfielder, for Chris Archer, Brandon Guyer, Robinson Chirinos, Hak-Ju Lee, and Sam Fuld.

Garza Traded To Cubs

[Ennder]

I don't like this one bit. I don't know if it puts the Cubs at the same level as the Cardinals or Reds but it certainly puts them in the range where a little luck could have them in the division race.

[Hofbraunhaus]

I still think the Cubs will finish behind the Brewers, Cardinals, and Reds but it definitely improves their team. There are going to be some great pitching matchups in the NL Central this year.

[Bankjob]

Late rumor that more than Garza may be going back to Cubbies.

 

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman

archer and lee are better players going to #rays in garza deal. as many as 8 players involved. could be 5 going to rays for 3

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't like this one bit. I don't know if it puts the Cubs at the same level as the Cardinals or Reds but it certainly puts them in the range where a little luck could have them in the division race.

This just makes it more of a 4 team race than a 3 team race and may actually reduce the number of wins needed to capture the division. The Brewers, Reds and Cards are still all stronger in the middle of the lineup than the Cubs and still should rate an edge.

[wOOgiE22]

I edited the post, the main espn article also said what you did that a minor league pitcher and outfielder were going to be coming with Garza to Chicago.

[Oxy]

I am no prospect-nik, so could anybody tell me how Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos, and Fuld compare to the 5 guys we gave up this year? From my limited reading in the last 5 minutes I get the impression that Archer is probably a better prospect than Odorizzi or Jeffress, Lee~Escobar, Guyer~Cain and Lawrie is the best prospect of the ten. We got 4 years of likely outstanding pitching while the Cubs get 3 years of very good pitching. Seems to be pretty even to me.

[owbc]

This will fire up the Cubs' fan base and bring them into the 2011 NL Central contenders discussion. Their starting pitching was already pretty good toward the end of last year and now they add a 200 innings guy on top of that. They get Garza for 3 years which helps set them up for a big run in 2013 after the Brewers lose Fielder, Greinke, and possibly Weeks.

 

Adding another quality starter to the division certainly isn't good for the Brewers, but it is good overall for the NL Central. How about the Pirates now--will they lose 110-115 games next year with all the new talent in the division?

[sbrylski]

Eh, Garza's overrated a little. He's definitely not an ace. His career low FIP is 4.14 and xFIP 4.21. Last year they were at 4.42 and 4.51, respectively. I think Marcum is a strong bet to have a better ERA next season.

 

We started this offseason a better team than the Cubs, and we added two pitchers better than the Cubs one acquisition. I still don't see them as a real division threat.

[Yeti73]

I like this. They thinned out their very strong system and make themselves more competitive. I hate the Cubs, but like when the rivalry is competitive. I still think our rotation is far better. Garza will be their #1 but is only slightly better than Wolf and I'd take Yo or Grienke over him any day. Unless Soriano, Aramis and Z turn back the clock a bit, our lineup is still much better. Luck could change things, but I still think we are better. That said, I'll enjoy a competitive race.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think this makes the Cubs serious contenders, but it makes them a serious threat to nip away wins from STL/CIN/MIL. And like Ennder said, with luck being what it is, who knows what scenario plays out & maybe the Cubs are in the running.

 

I also agree that Garza's not an elite pitcher & that the Cubs' ages will work against them --

 

Dempster: 34

Zambrano: 30

Soriano: 35

Ramirez: 33

Byrd: 33

Fukudome: 34

Pena: 33

 

At least one of those guys will probably wind up missing significant time this season.

[JohnBriggs12]

I am no prospect-nik, so could anybody tell me how Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos, and Fuld compare to the 5 guys we gave up this year? From my limited reading in the last 5 minutes I get the impression that Archer is probably a better prospect than Odorizzi or Jeffress, Lee~Escobar, Guyer~Cain and Lawrie is the best prospect of the ten. We got 4 years of likely outstanding pitching while the Cubs get 3 years of very good pitching. Seems to be pretty even to me.

This deal is a testament to Cubs player development. Guyer's no kid, but he's progressed every year and made a huge step forward in 2010. Chirinos has played 10 seasons in the minors all with the Cubs with 690 games played below AA. Eventually they made a catcher out of him and he learned how to hit.

 

We can only wish the Brewer player development were this successful.

[sveumrules]

The Cubs can develop all the Guyers and Chirinoses they want but what MLB impact talent have they developed recently? Soto, Castro, Marmol is about it. I'll take Weeks, Braun, Fielder and Gallardo over that all day.

[GoldGloveSS06]

Looks like Fernando Perez also coming back to the Cubs.

 

Link

[brewtank34]

I don't think this makes the Cubs serious contenders, but it makes them a serious threat to nip away wins from STL/CIN/MIL. And like Ennder said, with luck being what it is, who knows what scenario plays out & maybe the Cubs are in the running.

 

 

 

This means that it's now even less of a chance that the WC comes out of the central. I believe we'll win the NL Central, but if we don't, at least I was confident with our chances for the WC. Like TLB stated, this trade only takes W's away from STL/CIN/MIL.

 

LOL to the overall L's for Pitt. My prediction is 50-112

[Dragonbait]

Since the deal ins't final.... is it bad for me to hope it all falls throuh?

[PrinceEatMeat]

I'm not really worried about this. It's the Cubs, so they will flop in some way. Garza will likely underachieve and the Cubs fan base will hate him by mid-season. I see Greinke and Marcum both outperforming Garza, and likely the entire Cubs rotation this year. Like what was already mentioned, I'm glad to see them trading away their minor league depth when they have an old team. This will backfire on them a couple years down the road.

[Funketown]

This definitely hurts the Brewers' chances this year, even if the Cubs still are probably projected in 4th. I'm not too annoyed though; Garza is a good pitcher but he's no better than Marcum. In this division, he probably projects to put up about a 3.75 - 4.00 ERA.

 

The Cubs gave up this guy: Hammered the ball in AA last year, but he is 24 and an OF.

http://www.fangraphs.com/...rid=sa389915&position=OF

 

 

and this guy: Looks like a solid starting pitching prospect, but nothing too special.

http://www.fangraphs.com/...erid=sa326752&position=P

 

and this guy: Hak-Ju Lee: Fell off after being named #4 prospect by Fangraphs in 2009.

http://www.fangraphs.com/...rid=sa502536&position=SS

 

I'd never heard of Chirinos, but I wouldn't mind having that guy in our system. All in all, this looks like a pretty fair trade to me. It will be interesting to see how much Garza gets this year, as I believe the Cubs are already stretched pretty thin.

[Oxy]

The Cubs can develop all the Guyers and Chirinoses they want but what MLB impact talent have they developed recently? Soto, Castro, Marmol is about it. I'll take Weeks, Braun, Fielder and Gallardo over that all day.

Don't forget Casey McGehee http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[pretendastronaut]

This seems like a wasted move in my opinion. It seemed like general knowledge that they were basically throwing away this season and waiting to get some money off their books. With their age, I don't see them being one #2/#3 type guy away from being in the run for the division. Does it make them a better team, sure. But, in my eyes, all this move did was move them from possibly 5th in the division this year, to likely 4th.

 

The NSBB guys are a mix on the trade, some love, some hate.

 

However, this does look like a good trade on Tampa's end.

[RockCoCougars]

I think that Garza's a very good pitcher, but this smacks of the Cubs trading for Harden after the Brewers got C.C. Simply put, Greinke>Garza. Hopefully they got fleeced out of some good prospects here (though it seems they never do).

[JohnBriggs12]

The Cubs can develop all the Guyers and Chirinoses they want but what MLB impact talent have they developed recently? Soto, Castro, Marmol is about it. I'll take Weeks, Braun, Fielder and Gallardo over that all day.

The point I was making was that 2 guys who a couple years ago wouldn't have gotten them anything in return, helped get them a number 2 starting pitcher. Weeks, Braun and Fielder were all picked in the top 7 in the draft. Their impact had very little to do with player development and all to do with talent and player selection. Of course it's a lot easier to hit on talent drafting high.

 

Player development and player selection are 2 completely different things. Every year players are brought into the system. Some are very talented and will succeed regardless of who's coaching them.. Others can develop if they are coached and used properly. The Brewers track record in developing guys from roster fillers to actual prospects with value just isn't very good. You mention Soto. Well he's been an All Star and he was picked in the 11th round. Heck the Brewers are benefiting from a guy the Cubs developed, Casey McGehee.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

If I'm the Cubs I kind of get it, but don't. I like Garza and was hoping the Brewers could pull off a trade for him...before we got Greinke which is much better. It does make the Cubs better...probably from .500 to slightly under to .500 to slightly over...still projected #4 in division, but they closed the gap with #3. That's a slight hit to the top 3 in the division.

 

If I'm the Cubs, I'm playing for 2013. Garza will still be there and they could extend him...that's a plus, but they could pull a trade like this off in 2 years when they are really poised to take off. Seems they gave up a little too much just to hang in there for a couple years. The mid-decade Cubs scare me...but if they make a couple more moves like this while they unwind their bad, old contracts...they could really clip some of their mid-decade upside. Wouldn't do it if I were them, but they've never been particularly forward-thinking in their moves.

[colbyjack]

We can only wish the Brewer player development were this successful.

 

Huh? What have the Cubs developed in recent years, especially in relationship to the Brewers? Also, the timing of the comment is curious given the players the Brewers used to acquire Greinke & Marcum.

 

Good acquisition for the Cubs. Garza is a guy a lot of people around here would have been plenty of happy to get before Greinke. Like the Greinke deal, the Cubs had to give up some good players to get him, and already had a solid rotation without him.

[colbyjack]

Player development and player selection are 2 completely different things. Every year players are brought into the system. Some are very talented and will succeed regardless of who's coaching them.. Others can develop if they are coached and used properly. The Brewers track record in developing guys from roster fillers to actual prospects with value just isn't very good. You mention Soto. Well he's been an All Star and he was picked in the 11th round. Heck the Brewers are benefiting from a guy the Cubs developed, Casey McGehee.

 

What about Cain and Escobar, two big parts to acquire Greinke? Roque Mercedes and Cole Gillespie to acquire Felipe Lopez? Darren Ford and Steve Hammond for Ray Durham? I'll grant you that Lopez and Hammond aren't on the same level as Garza, but Garza isn't on the same level as Greinke, and Lopez and Durham were key acquisitions for the time at the time the Brewers got them. Plus, don't understate the importance of developing first-round picks. Just because Weeks, Fielder, Braun, etc. were selected early doesn't mean the importance of developing is lessened. And what about late-round scores such as Corey Hart, Jonathan Lucroy, John Axford and Zach Braddock?

 

I would argue their track record developing prospects into players is very good.