How many of you are willing to give Betancourt a shot?

[1992casey]

From the previous Betancourt topic:

Invader3K wrote:

---

For whatever it's worth, Drew Olson's

comment about Betancourt on 540 ESPN this afternoon was along the lines

of: "The people I talk to, who get paid to watch Royals games, say he's

one of the worst players they've ever seen."

[Ennder]

http://www.tangotiger.net...rtid=7&prim_fld_cd=6

 

Fans Scouting report gives him lowest rankings of anyone in baseball.

 

http://pinetarandpocketpr...esting-man-in-the-world/

 

This article by Joe Posnanski pretty much sums him up perfectly.

 

http://joeposnanski.si.co...he-yin-and-yang-of-yuni/

 

Here is what Mariner fans who watched him thought of him.

 

http://www.ussmariner.com...-of-yuniesky-betancourt/

 

We’ve all watched first hand as Yuni has regressed from an athletic young player into a complete waste of space and time. His lack of hard work is nothing new – even after an offseason where he trained with Raul Ibanez, he showed up to camp as the same rotund non-athlete that he was at the end of last year. He’s getting worse at every facet of the game, and at this point, he’s not a major league player.

 

Also it isn't just one defensive metric that doesn't like him, it is all of them.

 

In late October John Dewan offered up this tidbit from his website:

Yuniesky Betancourt cost his team more runs, at -21, than any other

defensive player in baseball this year

 

So the fans who watch him think he is the worst defensive SS in baseball, the stats from every system thinks he is the worst defensive SS in baseball. It is quite obvious that he is terrible offensively just from looking at his stats. I can't really see anything that justifies him being a viable starting SS as anything but a stopgap player unless he completely changes his game in the offseason somehow. You can't just wait to replace him because by the time the season starts all the SS will have jobs, if you are going to replace him it has to be now.

[crewcrazy]

If playing him can't be avoided, I would hope the team has the sense to platoon him with Counsell. He at least has hit for a higher average against LHP, even if it's still empty without much OBP. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping Cruz on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement.

[Polish Falcons]

For a team that has gutted it's minor league system and will be losing 2 of it's best hitters after 2011 it would be a really really bad idea to not spend extra money to upgrade a position where we can easily improve by a couple wins.

So we have concluded Weeks isn't resigning with the Brewers next year or what does this mean?

 

 

[reillymcshane]

I'd say dump Yuni for whatever you can get - or cut him.

 

Trade for a guy like Adam Everett - he's with Cleveland on a minor league deal so he won't cost more than case of beer - or Paul Janish or Brendan Ryan or Jack Wilson. Assuming they are healthy and don't cost much to get (and we don't have to pay them their full salary, in the case of a guy like Jack Wilson), add them to the team, have them anchor our defense. I'd even take Nick Punto, who I've always hated because he's so darn gritty people in Minnesota have far too much affection for him. You can pair them with counsel, so neither guy gets overused.

 

The articles posted by Ennder are what we are getting. I don't want a lazy, selfish guy poisoning the clubhouse. get a guy who wants to be there. Our defense at 1B and 3B is suspect enough, and a quality fielder would be awesome.

 

I'd rather get rid of Yuni now instead of waiting to see how he does. Instead, let's get the team set, get them working together in camp, get them working toward a goal to win.

[Invader3K]

For a team that has gutted it's minor league system and will be losing 2 of it's best hitters after 2011 it would be a really really bad idea to not spend extra money to upgrade a position where we can easily improve by a couple wins.

So we have concluded Weeks isn't resigning with the Brewers next year or what does this mean?

 

I believe logan is working under that assumption, but there should be a chance for the Brewers to re-sign Weeks. The two sides are still talking according to what some have posted here.

[gregmag]

As I read this discussion, the most forceful arguments in favor of giving Betancourt a shot boil down to (a) refusing to believe evidence because . . . well, just because; (b) admitting you're just being contrary; © isolating every spinnably good number over the course of his career and ignoring everything else; and/or (d) pretending he hasn't aged. I'm not knocking anybody's rhetorical skills here -- Betancourt should be paying anybody who can do that well by him.

 

IMHO, if you don't believe Betancourt is bad, then you have a level of faith in the inherent goodness of all things that I admire but don't share. I remember Bill James once wrote about Charlie Moore as a RF, "So he can throw; big deal. Everybody does something well." That's how I feel about the fact that Betancourt has above-average power for a middle infielder. If the Brewers want to win, they need a real shortstop.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think what Doug needs to do is say "Zack, Yuni? Give him a shot or give him the boot?"

 

Zack has watched him play for almost two years and he seems to be brutally honest.

 

Personally I think putting Gomez at short is a better idea than starting Betancourt.

[southpaw121505]

JohnBriggs12 wrote:

Sure he doesn't walk much. So he's Ozzie Guillen with a lot more pop offensively? I agree with Melvin that down in the order, that's not such a big deal. In fact it could be considered a plus since the 4, 5 and 6 hitters figure to be on base a lot ahead of him.

So having a guy that gets out more than 70% of the time is a good thing because there will be guys on when he does it? Got it.

[Thurston Fluff]

When Belliard was here I thought he was lazy and out of shape. He was non tendered and signed a minor league FA contract the next season and went from a 544 OPS to a 760 one in a single season. I'm not implying he was as bad as Betancourt by any means. Merely that both were talented but seemingly lazy and both were in bad situations for those who may be a bit lazy. I hope they cover themselves but am willing to see what he does as a Brewer in a good situation before I decide.

[pitchleague]

take this for what it's worth, but he has played in the AL only for his career. Maybe he can adjust better the NL style of play where, batting 8th likely, he will HAVE to be getting on base more than he did in the AL. Maybe it will force him to adjust, knowing that he's probably done as a starting MLB player if he doesn't.

 

Just a thought.

[olliegjw]

If his defensive numbers were horrible without Prince at 1B, how bad will they be with Prince at 1B? An average firstbaseman could have saved Escobar a few of his errors last year.

[thebruce44]

When Belliard was here I thought he was lazy and out of shape. He was non tendered and signed a minor league FA contract the next season and went from a 544 OPS to a 760 one in a single season. I'm not implying he was as bad as Betancourt by any means. Merely that both were talented but seemingly lazy and both were in bad situations for those who may be a bit lazy. I hope they cover themselves but am willing to see what he does as a Brewer in a good situation before I decide.

Much more often than not it doesn't work out like this. The rare instance of Belly having a better season doesn't change the fact that it is much more likely Betancourt continues to Quevedo his way out of baseball.

[logan82]

So we have concluded Weeks isn't resigning with the Brewers next year or what does this mean?

 

I believe logan is working under that assumption, but there should be a chance for the Brewers to re-sign Weeks. The two sides are still talking according to what some have posted here.

I am working under the assumption that Weeks will not sign an extension. I think he still might and hope he does but until we find out something more encouraging than "both sides are still talking" I think we have to assume he is gone after 2011. Even if he stays, Fielder leaving is going to be a couple game hit to our team which would drop us into the mid 80's for wins. A fun team but not real playoff contenders.

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

I'm willing to give Betancourt a shot in leiu of panicking and overpaying mediocrity such as Renteria- just because he's the best of a small and sorry bunch of available shortstops with MLB experience. As I've said in other posts, I want to see Betancourt with my own eyes in spring training, while giving Cruz his shot at the same time. You never know- if both of those guys are awful in the spring, a quality guy may be available then in trade (or a passable guy may be out there on the waiver wire) that isn't available right now- lots can happen between now and then.

 

I'm not sure about WAR and all the advanced statistics, but it would be hard to convince me that any warm body could be any worse than Escobar was last season. Aside from the awful offense and subpar defense, is there a bWAR for 'Boneheaded Mental Mistakes/Baserunning Errors'? Escobar had to be far below 'replacement' in that category.

[DHonks]

I would expect Betancourt to out-produce Escobar offensively this year, but defense will be the challenge. The good news is we aren't stuck with Betancourt after this year, so I really hope we at least try Farris at SS.

[Flood Pants]

Betancourt is useless. By most accounts, he can't field the ball, he can't throw, he can't run, he can't get on base, he can't hit for power (except for last year, kind of), he can't hit for contact, he doesn't play hard... he lacks every skill that the game of baseball requires. If he was really good at just one thing, it may be a different story. But he's simply the type of player that a contending team can't afford to carry.

 

We know that Betancourt is awful. There's years worth of data to prove that. We don't need to go out and spend a bunch of money to replace Betancourt

with a player who will likely be better. He's bad enough that we

should be able to replace him for league minimum for a player who, at the very least, won't be any worse. Melvin should just trade a low-level prospect for some other team's AAA depth, or audition a minor-league free agent. As risky as it is to go with an unproven player, I think even "may not be awful" is better than "proven awful." No, I am not willing to give Betancourt a chance.

 

Of course, if we can get a good shortstop, all the better. But even a bad shortstop has a good chance of being better than Betancourt.

[TooLiveBrew]

We know that Betancourt is awful. There's years worth of data to prove that.

 

Not to mention firsthand/eyewitness accounts, but some people apparently don't believe that's reliable. I'm really not sure why anyone would need to see it firsthand, since there is literally nothing backing up the assertion that Betancourt might be an asset at this point.

[Hate those Rodents]

I just can't believe this guy was able to play high school baseball, much less start MLB games. I'd take my thirteen year old little brother over Betancourt in a backyard baseball game. He is that bad.

 

Just had to chime in with something on par to what is being said in this thread...

[Bombers]

I don't see why so much hostility against Betancourt. It seems like people on this board think he is the biggest douche ever. Is he a clubhouse cancer? I guess I don't get it.

 

Here are some stats for you junkies http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

#	Wins Above Replacement	WAR		#	On Base %	OBP
18	Erik Aybar (Angels)	0.9		18	Orlando Cabrera (reds)	0.303
19	Jason Bartlett (Rays)	0.7		19	Alex Gonzalez (TOR/ATL)	0.294
20	Alcides Escobar (Brewers)	0.6		20	Alcides Escobar (Brewers)	0.288
21	Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)	0.6		21	Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)	0.288
22	Cezar Izturis (Orioles)	-0.3		22	Cezar Izturis (Orioles)	0.277
#	Batting Average Balls in Play	BABIP		#	Batting Average	AVG
18	Alex Gonzalez (TOR/ATL)	0.275		13	Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)	0.259
19	Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)	0.267		18	Alex Gonzalez (TOR/ATL)	0.250
20	Alcides Escobar (Brewers)	0.264		19	Johnny Peralta (CLE/DET)	0.249
21	Cezar Izturis (Orioles)	0.257		20	Juan Uribe (Giants)	0.248
22	Juan Uribe (Giants)	0.256		21	Alcides Escobar (Brewers)	0.235
				22	Cezar Izturis (Orioles)	0.230
#	Ultimate Zone Rating	UZR
17	Derek Jeter (NYY)	-4.7
18	Jose Reyes (NYM)	-5
19	Ian Desmond (WAS)	-8.8
20	Yuniesky Betancourt (KC)	-9.5
21	Hanley Ramirez (FLA)	-10.2
22	Jason Bartlett TB)	-10.4

What I find funny is Escobar is in the majority of these bad stats ... I think the Brewers option is to stay the course. They don't have any money, they don't have more prospects to trade away ... Betancourt is our starting SS until atleast mid may. (IMO, I think he will fit in fine as he will bat 8th and who cares what he does ... Our boys up top need to provide the run support, not Yuniesky)

[TooLiveBrew]

I think he will fit in fine as he will bat 8th and who cares what he does

 

I do, along with many others. When every win is so much more valuable, you can't afford to say 'to heck with' any spot in the lineup. If he's going to suck at the plate & and suck in the field, as he's been doing for the past three or so seasons, that's a big deal when you're fighting for that 90th/91st/92nd win.

[JimH5]

The guy has played in 810 games in the majors with a sub .300 OBP and a sub .400 SLG, and defense that is somewhere between terrible and mediocre. And he's slow.

 

It would be dumb to expect this guy to be anything but bad.

[logan82]

What I find funny is Escobar is in the majority of these bad stats

 

Except the defensive ones. Escobar could at least play defense. Betancourt has no redeeming qualities as a baseball player except when he is lucky enough to make contact he sometimes hits the ball hard. Maybe he is a nice guy though.

[kramnoj]

I'm really not sure why anyone would need to see it firsthand, since there is literally nothing backing up the assertion that Betancourt might be an asset at this point.

 

This is an overstatement. Our new manager has seen Betancourt play a significant number of games. I'm going to hazard a guess he has seen more of him than the vast majority of people here. Roenicke's success is tied to the players he has on his roster. Now, of course Roenicke is going to say good things about a new acquisition. What will be really telling is what happens between now and Spring Training. If Roenicke privately requests that Melvin seek an upgrade, I'm all for it. If Roenicke has a conversation with Betancourt (a "come to Jesus" speech, if that's not too controversial to say) and believes that Betancourt has the ability to be the SS he was a few years ago and was just dogging it on a bad team with a guaranteed contract, and is satisfied that Betancourt can return to the previous form, than he could be just as good as any other SS is likely to be.

 

As I read this discussion, the most forceful arguments in favor of giving Betancourt a shot boil down to (a) refusing to believe evidence because . . . well, just because

 

There's a difference between believing evidence and deciding how to properly weigh it.

 

(b) admitting you're just being contrary

 

I personally haven't seen this, but maybe it happened. I have seen people try to play Devil's Advocate, in the attempt to understand Melvin's decision to acquire Betancourt.

 

© isolating every spinnably good number over the course of his career and ignoring everything else;

 

Some people may be ignoring everything else. I don't think that's pervasive. I think the answer to this is closer to the response provided to "a".

 

and/or (d) pretending he hasn't aged

 

This seems like a particularly odd statement, given that Betancourt is several years younger than a few of his experienced alternatives.

 

Projections are awesome for coming up with numbers for 1500+ players that will appear in the major leagues in 2011. When it comes to the very specific decision of who will play SS for the Brewers, just a simple projection and ignoring everything else would be poor management.

[southpaw121505]

I just can't believe this guy was able to play high school baseball, much less start MLB games. I'd take my thirteen year old little brother over Betancourt in a backyard baseball game. He is that bad.

 

Just had to chime in with something on par to what is being said in this thread...

fixed.

 

 

On Base %

Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)

0.288

Batting Average

Yuniesky Betancourt (Royals)

0.288

 

......what?