How many of you are willing to give Betancourt a shot?

[RobDeer 45]

I've been going back and forth on what I think of him and how he fits with this team. Is he good enough to get by? Will he bring down a team that has many of the important pieces in order to make a serious run? Would we be better off with a pure deffensive SS that doesn't have a bat? I'm willing to give Gomez a pass because of the defense he brings up the middle, which I believe is really important in making a good staff even better. I'm just worried that our defense right now could be an issue in big games/series etc. Also, how does Counsell's D compare to Betancourt's (I know CC can't play every day but could he play half the time)?

 

Just wanted to get a feel for what you guys think on the whole situation.

[Ennder]

Betancourt very well may be the worst full time player in major league baseball. By far the easiest way to improve the team would be to release him and sign any garbage heap SS out there. At the very least I hope he loses playtime to Counsell on a regular basis.

[pitchleague]

I tend to agree with most that have said he is not very good at all. However, he played with some pretty poor Mariners and Royals teams. His best year, arguably, was 2007, which was Seattle's only winning season when he played there.

 

I know I'm grasping at straws here, but perhaps he had a bout of dogging it a bit on the poor teams but played his heart out when the team was winning? I don't really know and no one would know except for Yuniesky.

 

I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt for a month or two, though. If he's still booting the ball around and letting grounders get past him due to limited range and/or still hitting. 165 on June 1st, then I'll be willing to concede that the guy has to go.

[Oldcity]

The Brewers have a real chance to be very good, and he has a real chance to sabotage that. There's no reason for him to be the opening day shortstop, but if he's still starting after, say, six weeks of terrible play, I'll be really upset. There are better options on free agency now. There's no reason not to upgrade.

[RobDeer 45]

The Brewers have a real chance to be very good, and he has a real chance to sabotage that. There's no reason for him to be the opening day shortstop, but if he's still starting after, say, six weeks of terrible play, I'll be really upset. There are better options on free agency now. There's no reason not to upgrade.

I think that's my feeling as well. If we are really going for it, why would we go in to the season with an iffy piece in the puzzle. If he was above average at the plate or with his glove and bad at the other, I'd be a little more at ease. It sounds like he's not good at either and that's what I'm worried about. There has to be something we can do for a year that can give us a better option.

 

Who's out there? Rentaria still available?

 

[ramssuperbowl99]

The Brewers have a real chance to be very good, and he has a real chance to sabotage that. There's no reason for him to be the opening day shortstop, but if he's still starting after, say, six weeks of terrible play, I'll be really upset. There are better options on free agency now. There's no reason not to upgrade.

I think that's my feeling as well. If we are really going for it, why would we go in to the season with an iffy piece in the puzzle. If he was above average at the plate or with his glove and bad at the other, I'd be a little more at ease. It sounds like he's not good at either and that's what I'm worried about. There has to be something we can do for a year that can give us a better option.

 

Who's out there? Rentaria still available?

Yes he is available.

And right now, we are probably somewhere between an 87 and 90 win team. That means the 1-2 wins that a Renteria could give us not only come on the cheap (since he hasn't gotten a single good offer), but they could be the difference between sitting at home in October and making the playoffs. And ask the Giants about what making the playoffs can do for your payroll, since they anticipated a $20 M boost from their WS win.

 

I'm still holding out hope that we cut Betancourt immediately and someone else picks him up so that we don't have to pay him $400k of his remaining salary. It's not likely, but it's possible. If we had a guy like Renteria to pair with Dickerson and Lucroy (each of whom have upside), then I'd feel much better about the bottom 3rd of our lineup.

Thankfully, we have maybe the best set of hitting pitchers I've seen in a long time. Greinke and Gallardo can mash.

[DocBrewPack]

I dont think he is as bad as most people on here think. (by this i do not mean to argue that he is very good because he is obviously not) Im OK with giving him a shot and i think it looks like Melvin is leaving some money for a midseason acquisition and if hes as terrible as many of you think, we can hopefully make a move. I would certainly not be against still singing a defensive SS but im OK with giving him a shot on a short leash.

[JohnBriggs12]

Betancourt had 5 fewer RBI than Fielder did last year. He hit .289 in back to back seasons (06 and 07) in Seattle. He's averaged 30 doubles a year over the last 5 seasons. His career fielding percentage (.970) is higher than Robin Yount (.964).

 

Sure he doesn't walk much. So he's Ozzie Guillen with a lot more pop offensively? I agree with Melvin that down in the order, that's not such a big deal. In fact it could be considered a plus since the 4, 5 and 6 hitters figure to be on base a lot ahead of him.

 

He's below average defensively on a team with 2 likely 200 strikeout pitchers in Greinke and Gallardo and 3 other starters that averaged 148 K's in 2010. None of their 5 starters had a GB/FB ratio of over 1. They are all basically FB, strikeout type pitchers.

 

I don't see this as the problem it's being made out to be. If the staff was full of sinker/slider guys, yeah it would be an issue. But it's not so everyone should relax.

[logan82]

When you have a player that is obviously bad and you can get a couple extra wins you can't afford not to replace him. We really are at a point where one or two marginal wins are HUGE. If this was last year when we were a low 80 win team, let him play. If he was a young SS with possible upside, let him play. 29 isn't old but at this point he is what he is, a really crappy SS who can't hit or play defense. He is the worst defender on team of bad defenders.

[brewtank34]

I'm ok with giving him a shot. After looking at his numbers, I wasn't overlly excited about having him on our run to the WS, however he'll be an ok 8 hitter. The guy did have 144 hits last year. I would like his OBP to be higher so we don't start the inning with a pitcher hitting first. I've seen some reference hitting the P in the 8 hole and Betancourt in the 9 hole in front of Weeks. I'm ok with this as well.

 

Here are some stats for all of you...

Betancourt had 18 errors last year. Escobar had 20, Aybar had 21, Figgins had 19. Brenden Ryan had 17. H. Ramirez has 17. Castro has 27. Reyes had 15. jeter had 6. Tulo had 11. Some of those errors probably caused a few runs to score, but some probably didn't.

 

Betancourt had a .974 fielding %. Jeter, Tulowitzki, Renteria were all in the upper .980s. Orlando Cabrera was at .977. JJ Hardy .976, Alexi Ramirez and Brendan Ryan were at .974 (same as Betancourt). Reyes was at .971 and Alcedes Escobar was at a horrendous .964.

 

Betancourt was 9th in all of MLB SS's with 144 hits. Jeter was 1st with 179. YB was 9th in total bases with 225. Tulo was first with 267.

YB was 49th for OBP (Horrible!!)

 

So obviously, Dale Sveum has to work with YB to get his walks up to par. Simple as that. According to the defense stats I just posted, I'm not all too worried about his defense. Get his bat at the bottom of the line-up and work on his plate discipline. I wish it was that easy, but it can be done.

[Funketown]

Yeah, Betancourt has a good fielding percentage. He also can't move. Heck, a 104-year old one-legged man would probably have a .975 fielding percentage.

[kramnoj]

When I looked at the available SS, I didn't remember one who I thought was a good bet to be a 2 Win player. A lot of the available SS are older, and have a higher chance of decline.

[Raw Biz]

I'm just curious as to what everyone is basing their opinions on. I'm not saying he's a great player but what makes people think he is the worst everyday player in baseball? Is it looking at stats (both offensive and defensive)? Or have you actually watched him play a significant number of games? Or perhaps people don't like him because there is a consensus among "experts" that he's terrible? I just think we need to actually see the guy play with this team before we write him off.

[RobDeer 45]

I agree, I think he needs to be seen with our own eyes before we judge. I've just been worried about all the rumblings, so that's why I wanted to know if there was a better option out there. I agree, I think Doug will cut him loose if he under performs and bring someone in, but I'm up for seeing him him play.

[Ennder]

Sure if he reverts to 2006/2007 form I don't mind him that much. If he gives us 2009 form he is the worst player in baseball though. Over the past 3 years he has been the worst defensive SS in baseball and hasn't really added anything offensively to the team. When you have to cite fielding percentage and RBI to try to find a reason for a guy to play you know you are in trouble. He'd have to be a 90 RBI, .990 fielding percentage guy to offset the terrible OBP and complete lack of range though.

[joepepsi]

I think you give him a shot, but Doug keeps his eyes open for better options as the summer progresses. It will be a test of Roenicke's skills, to get the most out of a Betancourt/Counsell ss tandem. But if Counsell can play late innings in games where the team is leading, I think Yuni's dmaging effects can be minimized.

 

I'm not going to defend the guy, but where are stats that say he's the worst player in the majors? His WAR last season was 1.3. Nothing to get crazy excited about, but he was above replacement level.

[Ennder]

I did say full time. From 2008-2010 the worst offensive regular in baseball has been Jose Guillen at -1.1 WAR. The second worse has been Betancourt at -0.8 WAR. Players close to replacement level very rarely get a full time job year after year.

[GAME05]

for a team that has probably already gone over its budget this year, it seems like an extreme reaction to spend the money on cutting a player and signing a new one before we've even seen how he fares on the team.

[logan82]

for a team that has probably already gone over its budget this year, it seems like an extreme reaction to spend the money on cutting a player and signing a new one before we've even seen how he fares on the team.

For a team that has gutted it's minor league system and will be losing 2 of it's best hitters after 2011 it would be a really really bad idea to not spend extra money to upgrade a position where we can easily improve by a couple wins. We don't need to see Betancourt play to make a determination on him. He can't hit or field. We have several years of data. He is basically like watching Gomez hit without the good fielding.

[JohnBriggs12]

I did say full time. From 2008-2010 the worst offensive regular in baseball has been Jose Guillen at -1.1 WAR. The second worse has been Betancourt at -0.8 WAR. Players close to replacement level very rarely get a full time job year after year.

In 2010, he was +1.3 WAR. That was virtually equal to Hardy and better than Renteria, Orlando Cabrera, Escobar, Cedeno, Theriot, Brendan Ryan, etc.

 

I was no big fan of getting Betancourt either (though seeing the over-reaction to him he's quickly becoming one of my favorites), but to label him based on his 2 worst seasons (out of 6) just isn't fair. The guy's performed well enough to hold down a starting shortstop job in the major leagues since he was 23. That says something.

[ramssuperbowl99]

I did say full time. From 2008-2010 the worst offensive regular in baseball has been Jose Guillen at -1.1 WAR. The second worse has been Betancourt at -0.8 WAR. Players close to replacement level very rarely get a full time job year after year.

In 2010, he was +1.3 WAR. That was virtually equal to Hardy and better than Renteria, Orlando Cabrera, Escobar, Cedeno, Theriot, Brendan Ryan, etc.

 

I was no big fan of getting Betancourt either (though seeing the over-reaction to him he's quickly becoming one of my favorites), but to label him based on his 2 worst seasons (out of 6) just isn't fair. The guy's performed well enough to hold down a starting shortstop job in the major leagues since he was 23. That says something.

So we are ignoring 2 horrible years and cherry picking the best one? Seems kind of shortsighted.

Will Betancourt likely be somewhere around what Escobar was worth last season? Yeah. Is that still really mediocre? Yes. No reason we shouldn't try and get someone better.

 

[trwi7]

For a team that has gutted it's minor league system and will be losing 2 of it's best hitters after 2011 it would be a really really bad idea to not spend extra money to upgrade a position where we can easily improve by a couple wins. We don't need to see Betancourt play to make a determination on him. He can't hit or field. We have several years of data. He is basically like watching Gomez hit without the good fielding.

Bingo. I said this in the Greinke thread. This is our last year with Fielder, I sure hope they go over budget this year to give us the best chance of winning. Am I saying go spend $150 million? Of course not. But if the budget really is $85-90 million, they should bump it up to $95-100 million. DFA Betancourt and sign Renteria, Punto or Cabrera with preference in that order and I'd be happy.

 

 

[Invader3K]

There really isn't much out there significantly better on the FA market. The most realistic way to get a significant upgrade over Betancourt would be through a trade, and I'm not sure Melvin has the chips left to get something done.

 

I know I've been beating this drum a lot, but I really hope Luis Cruz gets a shot playing shortstop in spring training. I suspect he would be better defensively than Yuniesky and might have as good a bat (which admittedly isn't saying much).

[trwi7]

Any SS that can either hit or defend is by definition an upgrade at SS over Betancourt.

[Raw Biz]

Any SS that can either hit or defend is by definition an upgrade at SS over Betancourt.

Again I'm just wondering where this comes from. I'm not too worried about him hitting because we don't need him to be an offensive force out there. I'm just wondering what standards people are using to say he's a terrible defender. So far I've basically just seen people bring up defensive stats and for me, defensive stats are just too inaccurate or misleading. My problem isn't really people saying Betancourt is terrible; my problem is more with relying on things on paper (stats) rather than actually seeing someone play. If anyone has actually seen him play enough to form an opinion, then I'm all for hearing it. I don't mind using more advanced stats when it comes to hitting and even sometimes with pitching. But when it comes to defense, I think it's best to actually see the person play instead of relying on things like UZR, Fielding %, etc.