Alternatives for shortstop?

[PKBadger]

As pointed out in the Saito thread, we suddenly have a ton of depth in the bullpen.

 

Wondering if Doug could swing a trade that might land us our coveted SS. Would any team take Parra off our hands at this point (plus a low-level prospect, I imagine)? To me, that's an ideal scenario, as it would allow for a Capuano signing.

[The Truth]

Parra plus Betancourt plus a minor leaguer for Rafael Furcal?

[Raw Biz]

I think Furcal is due about $12 million so I don't see that happening.

[Invader3K]

I think Furcal is due about $12 million so I don't see that happening.

Yeah, I think we discussed that previously. I don't see how the Brewers could work out a trade like that financially at this point. It wouldn't make sense for the Dodgers to trade him and eat a large portion of his salary. Especially if we would (presumably) only be sending back a lower level prospect in return. I can't really see anyone on the MLB roster being dealt at this point.

[Oxy]

I think Furcal is due about $12 million so I don't see that happening.

Yeah, I think we discussed that previously. I don't see how the Brewers could work out a trade like that financially at this point. It wouldn't make sense for the Dodgers to trade him and eat a large portion of his salary. Especially if we would (presumably) only be sending back a lower level prospect in return. I can't really see anyone on the MLB roster being dealt at this point.

Why couldn't/wouldn't the Brewers trade Prince for Furcal and change? Or perhaps Prince for Reyes? We'd still have Gamel and and could perhaps pick up an adequate cheap replacement for Prince like Loney or Murphy. If Furcal/Reyes and Loney/Murphy are significant defensive upgrades over what we have now I think Melvin would have to check it out.

[Invader3K]

So you're going to take a huge hit in offensive production to get a bit better at SS? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, people have to quit pretending you're going to stick Gamel or Hart at 1B and have anywhere close to as threatening a lineup as you do with Prince.

[Oxy]

So you're going to take a huge hit in offensive production to get a bit better at SS? Doesn't make much sense to me.

We would also be upgrading significantly on the offensive side for the SS position, and we'd have an option to keep Furcal next year at 12M. Furcal has the ability to put up a WAR close to what Prince would put up (4ish-not matching Prince, but pretty good nonetheless). If Betancourt is replacement level or worse, and whoever we get in return to replace Fielder can be average (and we can control them cheaply for a few years), I think it would be to our advantage. That said, trading Fielder probably would be too much of a PR hit at this point to happen.

[Milltownhooker]

I think Punto could be had for a minor league deal due to the lack of interest in him. Cesar Izturis probably can be had for a fringe prospect & with his range could certainly help limit Casey's impact.

Cesar

[Invader3K]

The problem is that both of those guys will put up arguably worse offensive numbers than Betancourt. Are their gloves that much better than his to justify a signing (keeping in mind the 40 man is full)? I honestly don't know.

[endaround]

Punto's ZiPS projection is .239 .324 .306

Betancourt's is .266 .292 .392

 

So while Punto is worse he really isn't that much worse because the 30 points of OBP is huge compared to the 86 points of slugging. Punto's UZR/150 over his career at SS is 18.3. Batancourt's is -8.3

[kramnoj]

I had no idea that Punto has only started 228 games at SS in the majors. He's never started more than 60 games at SS in a season. He's been more of a 3B than a SS in his career. There's no denying that Punto is a better fielder than Betancourt, but with less than a season and a half at the position, he doesn't have a long history of success there.

[kilgore37]

The Astros were thought to be mulling the idea of trading Jeff Keppinger

this offseason, but the utility infielder is scheduled to undergo left

foot surgery next week and will likely miss the start of the regular

season, writes Brian McTaggart of MLB.com. This offseason, Houston acquired Bill Hall to play second base and Clint Barmes

to man shortstop, so Keppinger has become expendable, but the injury

should put a significant dent in the likelihood of him being dealt

before the season. Keppinger enjoyed a career year in 2010, hitting

.288/.351/.391 in 575 plate appearances. The Astros and Yankees briefly

discussed a swap for Keppinger, but those talks went nowhere.

From Dan Mennella over at mlb rumors. Not sure how he projects out defensively at SS, but a good option and could take over the Counsel roll next year.

[Schlitz001]

Here are the free agent SS available now that Renteria has signed, arranged from best to worst defensively:

 

UZR/150 at SS / OPS+ / age

 

+18.3 / 73 / 33 - Nick Punto

+8.4 / 65 / 36 - Augie Ojeda

+7.1 / 64 / 30 - Cesar Izturis

+3.1 / 85 / 36 - Orlando Cabrera (type B)

+2.5 / 80 / 30 - Bobby Crosby

+2.1 / 85 / 34 - Jerry Hairston Jr.

-0.2 / 80 / 32 - Christian Guzman

-0.4 / 87 / 35 - Julio Lugo

 

The guys we have:

 

+7.0 / 80 / 40 - Craig Counsell

-8.3 / 84 / 28 - Betancourt

 

Players mentioned in this thread as trade targets:

 

-1.0 / 98 / 33 - Rafael Furcal

-3.5 / 91 / 35 - Marco Scutaro

-12.0 / 93 / 30 - Jeff Keppinger

 

I don't know what to say about this list. Obviously everybody listed is better in the field than Betancourt (and I'm being generous using UZR/150), but is DM making the right move if he replaces Betancourt with a guy like Punto who is a slight downgrade offensively? I guess it depends on how bad Betancourt really is and how much his theoretical replacement costs. I think if I'm Doug I would almost rather stick with Yuni to start the season. If he does use a guy like Punto instead and Punto doesn't hit and doesn't make spectacular looking plays in the field, the fans are going to be complaining that he never gave Betancourt a shot. It might be crazy, but it certainly could be the case.

[alwz4gbp]

Schlitz, I agree with you 100%. First off, I'm not a big stat guy, but as these names were getting tossed out throughout this thread, I was going to fangraphs to check history, projections, etc. I've come to the same conclusion as you. We simply aren't going to do much better than what we've got right now (unless the Mets get stupid and want to give up Reyes for nothing).

 

Punto is a decent fielder, but I've seen him a lot and the only reason the he got so much playing time is that hes "scrappy" and Gardenhire had a man crush on him.

 

Keppinger isn't going be be ready before the season and Houston isn't going to trade within the division anyway, so hes off the list.

 

Scutaro? Really? Cool name but would you trade anything for him?

 

Furcal would be nice but hes not gonna come cheap with regards to what we'd send them and his contract.

 

I've also laid stats out on fangraphs and at least from what I was seeing, most of those guys are interchangable anyway.

 

I don't know what Doug has in mind but in my eyes, SS is a giant black hole that could cost us dearly.

[TooLiveBrew]

Christian Guzman's a guy I hadn't considered previously, not a bad idea.

 

 

If he does use a guy like Punto instead and Punto doesn't hit and doesn't make spectacular looking plays in the field, the fans are going to be complaining that he never gave Betancourt a shot. It might be crazy, but it certainly could be the case.

 

Some fans wanted Rickie Weeks DFA'd not too long ago. I'm very glad Melvin doesn't worry about what fans think over what he knows to be best.

 

I don't really expect Melvin to make a move for anyone else at this point. I think a Counsell/Betancourt platoon would be ok, as long as Craig would hold up to a relatively significant bump in playing time. I suppose a Furcal trade once the season gets going is possible.

[Schlitz001]

And don't forget those calling for Hart's DFA last off season..... My point wasn't that DM should use the fans as a basis for his decisions, I was just playing out the scenario. Waiting for the season to unfold a little bit before making the move to someone else is not a bad idea.

[endaround]

Except that right now its really cheap to upgrade. Punto will cost very little and if Furcal comes available in July he won't block him. But the Dodgers might make a run in the west and Furcal won't go anywhere.

[nate82]

Punto will be available all season. I don't see anyone giving him a spot in the majors.

[logan82]

Picking up a guy who is worth 2 wins now means he is only worth one win or less at the deadline. The longer we wait the less the upgrade helps.

[DHonks]

If Betancourt has a bad year going, Counsell will play more. Last year he didn't play much, but that's okay. I'm trying to remember, but didn't we let Inglett go? So I think that as of now our only backup is Cruz, right? I really hope Josh Prince has a good year and becomes a prospect!

[logan82]

Yes we let Inglett go. If Counsell was about 5 years or even 3 years younger I would feel a lot better about SS. I don't think Counsell can play more than 2 games a week, if that, and hold up for the whole season.

[JohnBriggs12]

Am I missing something? Other than Loe, who on this staff is a groundball pitcher?

 

In today's game when 15 hitters in the NL struck out 140 or more times, infield defense isn't as essential. Escobar for instance had 358 assists last year in 145 games an average of just under 2.5 per game. In 1979, Robin Yount had 517 assists in 149 games almost exactly 1 more per game than Escobar.

 

Betancourt had 418 assists, 60 more than Escobar primarily because the KC pitching staff had 223 fewer (1258 to 1035) strikeouts than did the Brewers. With one premier strikeout pitcher added to the rotation in Greinke and another above average strikeout pitcher in Marcum replacing the innings of lesser strikeout guys, that 1,258 total is likely to rise further.

 

This whole Betancourt thing from a defensive perspective has been way overblown. It's true Counsell can't start more than a couple times a week, but he can be used as a late inning replacement frequently in double switches.

[jerichoholicninja]

Three teams are interested in Bobby Crosby,

MLBTR has learned. Two American League clubs and one National League

club have expressed interest in the 31-year-old. One of the interested

teams is eyeing Crosby as a shortstop and the two others view him as a

possible utility player.

 

link

 

From mlbtraderumors. Any chance the Brewers are the National League team? Last years numbers were not very good .220/.294/.298.

[Hate those Rodents]

What would people think about signing Jerry Hairston to be our SS. He actually can hit pretty well and field. He's 35 I believe, but here's a guy that I think can be a solid starter for us as a stopgap. I have to think, if the plan is to keep Gamel in AAA for another year which is a whole nuther discussion, we will be signing one more infielder to be on the 25 man roster. I really think Hairston would be the best guy.

[logan82]

[quote author=JohnBriggs12 wrote:

[/b]Betancourt had 418 assists, 60 more than Escobar primarily because the KC pitching staff had 223 fewer (1258 to 1035) strikeouts than did the Brewers. With one premier strikeout pitcher added to the rotation in Greinke and another above average strikeout pitcher in Marcum replacing the innings of lesser strikeout guys, that 1,258 total is likely to rise further.

 

No, he had more assists primarily because Betancourt played 200 more innings at SS last year than Escobar did. They had almost identical assists per inning.