General Lineup Discussion: 2011

[FVBrewerFan]

It's not like Hart is completely lost at the plate either. He can and will improve, but even right now he's a better option higher in the lineup. Brewers seem to be cursed with managers who overthink these things.

[Oxy]

I know radical changes won't happen, but I think it's fun to speculate anyway:

 

LuCroy

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hart

McGehee

Betancourt

Pitcher

Gomez

 

I really think that this would be the optimal lineup. LuCroy is a high OBP, mediocre power/speed guy, so just get him on base in front of Braun/Fielder/Weeks. Bat the low OBP, high speed guy Gomez ninth right in front of LuCroy, where if he gets on he can use his speed to steal/hit and run with the contact hitter up. Give Braun and Fielder more at bats by bumping them up in the order and take advantage of Weeks' power AND speed by moving him to cleanup, not to mention protecting Prince better than McGehee. We have such good hitting pitchers that batting them 8th isn't a big deal especially when compared to Gomez.

[logan82]

Probably not optimal because Hart and McGehee are better hitters than Lucroy.

[Oxy]

Probably not optimal because Hart and McGehee are better hitters than Lucroy.

They are better because of a higher slugging pct. though, which is mitigated somewhat when batting leadoff, and taken advantage of more in the 5th and 6th spots behind the high OBP of Fielder and Weeks.

[ELCABALLO45]

I would love to see this..

 

Weeks

Lucroy

Braun

Fielder

Hart

McGehee

Betancourt

Gomez

Pitcher

 

Or even, Pitcher-Gomez.

[rluzinski]

Groundball right at the SS... if the Brewers didn't have the defensive shift on a righty. It results in a run. I think the jury is still out on some these shifts.

[1992casey]

Is this the topic you wanted Russ? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[DHonks]

Just wanted to note that McGehee made a very nice play throwing to second on Friday night. While McGehee's range is questionable, he's the most reliable Brewers 3b in recent history on both balls down the line AND throws to 2b. In fact, there's few in MLB that I'm more comfortable with on throws to 2b.

 

I'd love us to have a Cirillo or Loretta-type at 3b, but McGehee's just fine. I wish he were our worst defensive infielder, but instead he's arguably our best.

[TooLiveBrew]

He's really not. Weeks is head & shoulders better than anyone in the IF, which is kind of sad.

 

 

Hart is an every day play[er], this is stupid. Fine with Boggs starting.

Boggs needs more playing time. All he's done so far is take advantage of what tiny PT he's gotten. He's clobbered the snot out of the ball twice for HRs, & shows a very good approach at the plate. But yeah, let's totally keep playing Mark freaking Kotsay, because you know you can't live without his singles & bad defense.

[topper09er]

Brewers by batting order position this season:

Split	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st	181	161	27	48	9	2	7	13	3	2	16	40	.298	.370	.509	.879
Batting 2nd	176	156	19	35	4	3	2	13	6	2	11	36	.224	.272	.327	.599
Batting 3rd	169	147	29	44	3	1	11	29	7	0	20	27	.299	.385	.558	.942
Batting 4th	166	146	25	42	10	1	9	31	0	0	16	21	.288	.373	.555	.928
Batting 5th	165	149	12	39	11	0	1	17	0	1	15	27	.262	.327	.356	.683
Batting 6th	160	150	11	37	6	0	1	9	1	1	7	24	.247	.281	.307	.588
Batting 7th	156	140	12	29	8	1	4	14	4	1	11	26	.207	.261	.364	.626
Batting 8th	151	132	14	41	9	1	2	19	0	0	15	27	.311	.380	.439	.819
Batting 9th	146	135	11	24	3	0	2	11	1	0	3	49	.178	.194	.244	.439

So our terrible 2 slot, getting on base at a .272 clip over 176 PA vs our #8 hitters getting on at .380, has cost us 19 base runners on in front of Braun/Fielder.

[logan82]

Maybe nobody wants to pitch to our #2 hitter because of the guys following him.

[TooLiveBrew]

Protection!

[derflotr]

Why does everybody keep pretending our infielders are horrendous? McGehee has been rock solid, I don't know how anyone can say otherwise. Betancourt has been FAR better than I thought he would be. Weeks gets to everything and must have one of the strongest 2B arms around...Fielder is definitely the weak link but not slap-to-the-head bad like he was earlier in his career. Outside of the miserable Atlanta series they haven't made nearly as many boneheaded mistakes as we've seen from the opposition. Errors aren't the end-all but they do mean something.

[logan82]

The best way to score runs is to string together hits or walks. Mixing in bad hitters throughout the lineup will result in fewer hits being strung together thus fewer runs. Having 3 guys in a row who cannot hit sucks but it is better than having them make rally killing out in the middle of good hitters.

[Dollarbill13]

Lucroy won't maintain his current batting average. He'll settle in to a .260 BA with around a .320 obp... not bat but not that good for a #2 hitter. Go with something like this and we'll be fine:

 

Weeks

Hart/McGehee

Braun

Fielder

Hart/McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Gomez

[davego]

What Logan said. I know I'm out on a limb, but I'd like our best hitters grouped together and at the top of the order. Let the bottom three spots be a "black hole." Then we could do crazy type of things like PH late in the game at those spots, as needed.

[FVBrewerFan]

Lucroy won't maintain his current batting average. He'll settle in to a .260 BA with around a .320 obp... not bat but not that good for a #2 hitter. Go with something like this and we'll be fine:

.260? I'll bet anything that Lucroy will be well over .260. I'm thinking .288 with a .350ish OBP. He was at .380 for his minor league career, so I don't think it's a stretch. I really believe this is a case where he was thrown in maybe a year too early last year, learned how to become a major league hitter, and he's reaping the benefits this year. He should be no lower than 6th in the lineup.

 

I just don't see any logical argument why Lucroy or Hart shouldn't be hitting 2nd. If it's Hart, then Lucroy should be 6th, and pushing Casey for the #5 spot. I'm fine with giving Casey more time though, at least he's proven he can produce in that spot. unfortunately, we have a manager who feels clearing the pitcher's spot is more important than scoring runs.

 

 

[endaround]

Lucroy won't maintain his current batting average. He'll settle in to a .260 BA with around a .320 obp... not bat but not that good for a #2 hitter. Go with something like this and we'll be fine:

.260? I'll bet anything that Lucroy will be well over .260. I'm thinking .288 with a .350ish OBP. He was at .380 for his minor league career, so I don't think it's a stretch. I really believe this is a case where he was thrown in maybe a year too early last year, learned how to become a major league hitter, and he's reaping the benefits this year. He should be no lower than 6th in the lineup.

 

I just don't see any logical argument why Lucroy or Hart shouldn't be hitting 2nd. If it's Hart, then Lucroy should be 6th, and pushing Casey for the #5 spot. I'm fine with giving Casey more time though, at least he's proven he can produce in that spot. unfortunately, we have a manager who feels clearing the pitcher's spot is more important than scoring runs.

 

And again it doesn't matter where Lucroy hits in the order to clear the pitcher's spot. If he gets on base hitting 2nd or hitting 8th it has the exact same effect as to when the pitcher hits (assuming no double plays)

[CheezWizHed]

Seeing what Lucroy has done so far this year and looking at his MiLB history, I'd think a .340-350 OBP isn't out of the question. Which would be very nice in the #2 spot, but even .320 would be an improvement. I'd guess that RR hasn't put him there because he would have to shuffle the lineup on the days Lucroy sits (why that is such a big issue I'll never understand).

 

Last year, Lucroy was indeed called up too early. By normal development standards, he should have been at AAA. Even so it wasn't to bad based on what we were used to at catcher... This year, he seems to be much more comfortable at the plate.

 

And again it doesn't matter where Lucroy hits in the order to clear the pitcher's spot.

 

I would think the discussion is more about getting people on base ahead of Braun and Fielder, rather than clearing the pitcher... Of course, if Gomez or YB moves to 9th, then we can discuss about Gallardo getting on base or hits to clear Gogo... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BuckyBrewer61]

Brewers by batting order position this season:

Split	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st	181	161	27	48	9	2	7	13	3	2	16	40	.298	.370	.509	.879
Batting 2nd	176	156	19	35	4	3	2	13	6	2	11	36	.224	.272	.327	.599
Batting 3rd	169	147	29	44	3	1	11	29	7	0	20	27	.299	.385	.558	.942
Batting 4th	166	146	25	42	10	1	9	31	0	0	16	21	.288	.373	.555	.928
Batting 5th	165	149	12	39	11	0	1	17	0	1	15	27	.262	.327	.356	.683
Batting 6th	160	150	11	37	6	0	1	9	1	1	7	24	.247	.281	.307	.588
Batting 7th	156	140	12	29	8	1	4	14	4	1	11	26	.207	.261	.364	.626
Batting 8th	151	132	14	41	9	1	2	19	0	0	15	27	.311	.380	.439	.819
Batting 9th	146	135	11	24	3	0	2	11	1	0	3	49	.178	.194	.244	.439

So our terrible 2 slot, getting on base at a .272 clip over 176 PA vs our #8 hitters getting on at .380, has cost us 19 base runners on in front of Braun/Fielder.

Can someone please print this and show it to Roenicke? Seriously, just wad up the paper and throw it in the dugout. How can any logical person look at this and think our current order is optimal?

[greeg35]

My cousin knows Homer and emailed him your chart topper09er. I did not claim the chart for myself and I'm hoping he gave you due credit.

[topper09er]

Well I didnt make it manually, it can be found on baseball-reference here, updated daily.

 

http://www.baseball-refer...IL&year=2011#lineu::none

[1992casey]

You pasted it very nicely, though. You deserve credit for that. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[FVBrewerFan]

You know RR finally got it right when a week goes by without any lineup comments.

[TooLiveBrew]

I literally said, "Oh, a real lineup!" out loud last night when it popped up on the screen. Very pleasant surprise, just hope it sticks around

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Gomez

P

 

Imho, that's the right way to assemble that group of players. Very happy to see RRR went with it last night.