General Lineup Discussion: 2011

[PrinceEatMeat]

Morgan is hurt. Was just added in the game thread.

[Brewer Fever]

There's no credible reason, nothing at all that would suggest Gomez should be playing vs. righties while Morgan sits on the bench.

I guess there was a credible reason.

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's no credible reason, nothing at all that would suggest Gomez should be playing vs. righties while Morgan sits on the bench.

I guess there was a credible reason.

Booo. I'd rather have a hurt Morgan than a healthy Gomez.

 

Curse you for trying to rationalize my anger.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I'm pissed too, just saying that there actually is a reason why Morgan isn't playing.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm pissed too, just saying that there actually is a reason why Morgan isn't playing.

I know. I just don't want to have a reason to not be mad at Roenicke for Gomez getting playing time.

 

I can't be mad if there's no one to blame.

[logan82]

Don't drive angry.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Don't drive angry.

I'm at work answering the phone today. I'll just take it out on my callers.

[chadomac]

what's it gonna take to get Gomez out of this 2 spot! ugh.

[PrinceEatMeat]

what's it gonna take to get Gomez out of this 2 spot! ugh.

Hart coming back or Morgan getting healthy. Both need to happen ASAP.

[FVBrewerFan]

My lineup is based partly on reality (Weeks IS going to stay in lead-off spot like it or not):

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Morgan/Gomez strict platoon

Dillard

 

 

I think they're dead set on Weeks leading off, and McGehee hitting 5th. For that matter, the idea of flipping Braun/Fielder is dead. So the biggest question is the #2 spot. Hart is the best hitter remaining, so he gets the spot. I don't buy bunting ability, stealing bases, etc. as a reason for any player to hit 2nd. Especially with a guy like gomez who's a lousy bunter anyhow. I want my 5 best hitters 1-5 in the lineup.

 

Then I like Lucroy hitting 6th. Sure, he's hot now. But even last year I liked his approach as a rookie, certainly better than Betancourt or Gomez. Finally, I like Morgan/Gomez in the 8 hole. If they can get on, Weeks and Hart have a chance to drive them in. Nice speed ahead of them on the basepaths.

[logan82]

Morgan is a better hitter against RHP than Hart. I would rather get Morgan the extra PA against righties.

[PrinceEatMeat]

These should be the lineups, no doubt about it. You can flip Morgan and Weeks if you want, and throw Counsell in against righties occasionally, but this is it.

 

VS. RHP

 

Morgan

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Lucroy

Betancourt

Pitcher

 

VS. LHP

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Pitcher

Gomez

[DHonks]

I really think Lucroy should hit 2nd. That would put us (soon) at:

Weeks

Lucroy

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Betancourt

pitcher

Morgan/Gomez

[danzig6767]

These should be the lineups, no doubt about it. You can flip Morgan and Weeks if you want, and throw Counsell in against righties occasionally, but this is it.

 

VS. RHP

 

Morgan

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Lucroy

Betancourt

Pitcher

 

VS. LHP

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Pitcher

Gomez

While i like your lineups except i'd keep Weeks leading off regardless of who pitches, the problem i see is that Roenicke strikes me as the type unwilling to flip Hart and Morgan in the two hole based on if a LH/RH is on the mound. He'll likely believe that Hart needs to stay in the same part of the lineup each day, thus he'll bat Hart either 2nd or 6th everyday, hopefully 2nd.

 

Now maybe he'll surprise us and bat Lucroy 2nd as DHonks proposed, but i don't see it, at least not initially. Hopefully Roenicke doesn't brainfart and just keep Gomez batting second, even after Hart comes back. I wouldn't be shocked to see that if Gomez had a hot 3-4 game stretch right before Hart was activated and that allowed Roenicke to keep thinking that Gomez has the chance to be fixed, especially if the offense scored a bunch of runs over those 3-4 games..

 

With so many righthanded starters in the league though, the thought of Weeks, Morgan, Braun, Fielder, McGehee, Hart, and Lucroy as the 1-7 part of the order could be pretty damn productive. Unfortunately, i just don't envision Roenicke being willing to set his lineup that way on a LH/RH starter basis.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I'd agree with you on that. Those are just what I'd like to see. A more likely scenario is something like this.

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Lucroy

Betancourt

Morgan/Gomez

Pitcher

 

I'd like to see Lucroy get a shot at the 2 hole also if we won't use Morgan or Hart there. That way Hart could hit 6th. Then it would likely be something like this.

 

Weeks

Lucroy

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Morgan/Gomez

Betancourt

Pitcher

[BuckyBrewer61]

I'm not a stat expert, but any lineup that puts Weeks, Hart, Braun, Fielder, McGehee, Lucroy, and Morgan (vs. RHP) all in order seems to me will score a lot of runs. Any lineup that puts a player with a CAREER OBP of .291 (Gomez), .295 (Betancourt), or .275 (Nieves) between any of those players is the definition of a rally killer. Betancourt, Gomez (who should obviously only play against LHP) and Nieves should always be at the bottom of the order, and never between any of the group above. Gomez batting #2 has been beaten to death, but even Betancourt/Kotsay/Almonte batting before Lucroy is a big mistake.

 

Any details regarding Weeks vs. Morgan at leadoff, Hart/Morgan/Lucroy at #2, etc are splitting hairs as long as the huge mistake of putting Gomez, Betancourt, Kotsay, or Almonte between any of our good hitters is resolved, IMO.

[The Truth]

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Betancourt

Morgan/Gomez

Lucroy

Pitcher

 

that is my lineup, and likely will be the lineup when Hart gets back. Hart rakes when protected by Braun. Its is difficult to bat 8th and Lucroy is doing well in that spot

[1992casey]

When looking at The Truth's lineup, putting Morgan in the #2 spot vs. righties occurred to me. But he and Hart seem to be kind of a wash. OPSes are similar, but you might gain a little with Morgan's OBP.

 

If RRR went with the concept that players are happier with the same lineup spot every day, I'd be fine if he kicked that in in this case. I wouldn't be so fine if there were a larger difference between the two player's stats, though.

 

I think I'd flip-flop Betancourt and Morgan/Gomez, though. You'd have a few extra ABs going to the player capable of producing a decent OBP (Morgan). And it would seem to be a good spot to take advantage of base stealing. When Yuni makes one of his frequent outs, you'd still have a chance for Lucroy to knock Nyjer or Carlos in.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Betancourt

Morgan/Gomez

Lucroy

Pitcher

 

that is my lineup, and likely will be the lineup when Hart gets back. Hart rakes when protected by Braun. Its is difficult to bat 8th and Lucroy is doing well in that spot

I agree that this will be the lineup when Hart comes back. I don't mind it. I think it will work out pretty well.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

Although it will not happen, Rickie should be in power spot in the lineup. He's developed into less of a leadoff hitter and more of a power hitter the last few years. He never bunts. He runs and steals less. He's been very good w/ RISP, over .300 the last two years. He has more natural power than anyone other than Fielder. In addition, he has matured as a hitter and doesn't look anxious during critical at bats. The argument that he is "comfortable" doesn't fly with me. He's paid a lot of money - do what's best for the team.

 

Morgan

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hart

McGehee

Bentacourt

Lucroy/pitcher

Pitcher/Gomez

 

Platoon Morgan/Gomez, leadoff Weeks against LHP

[djoctagone]

hart is batting 6th today, behind mcgehee. gomez is batting 2nd.

 

given that gomez is swinging the bat well on the homestand, i like this.

[sabometrics]

I'm too lazy to read this thread, but from what I've read on this site, you guys seem to be pretty smart baseball fans, and are unhappy with Carlos Gomez in the two hole. Here's my analogy for the situation:

 

Rickie Weeks is Park Place with 4 houses on it, Ryan Braun is Boardwalk with a hotel. Carlos Gomez is the luxury tax space stuck in between.

 

I know that studies have been done that even the most optimized lineup is only 15ish runs better than the least optimized lineup, but as a Reds fan, it's an absolute relief that the Brewers insist on batting Gomez 2nd. Weeks, Braun, and Fielder are absolute pains in the sides. Plopping Hart or Morgan in the 2 spot makes a ton of sense for me. Although that does weaken the 2nd half of the lineup, it makes the first half more fearful than it already is (as if that's even possible).

 

But just in case Ron reads this.... Nevermind! I like it Ron! Keep doing what you're doing!

[sabometrics]

Although it will not happen, Rickie should be in power spot in the lineup. He's developed into less of a leadoff hitter and more of a power hitter the last few years. He never bunts. He runs and steals less. He's been very good w/ RISP, over .300 the last two years. He has more natural power than anyone other than Fielder. In addition, he has matured as a hitter and doesn't look anxious during critical at bats. The argument that he is "comfortable" doesn't fly with me. He's paid a lot of money - do what's best for the team.

 

Morgan

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hart

McGehee

Bentacourt

Lucroy/pitcher

Pitcher/Gomez

 

Platoon Morgan/Gomez, leadoff Weeks against LHP

I agree with the premise here, and I do think the Brewers are wasting Rickie's power a bit in the leadoff spot, but I would not move Weeks behind Fielder and Braun. I think Weeks benefits from hitting in front of those guys, as he has a reputation of being a fastball hitter (and fangraphs data would support that). Plop Weeks in the 2 hole, slide everyone back a spot, and I think that's your optimal lineup, in my opinion.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Rickie Weeks is Park Place with 4 houses on it, Ryan Braun is Boardwalk with a hotel. Carlos Gomez is the luxury tax space stuck in between.

 

As if "sabometrics" as a username hadn't won me over. You, sir, are welcome here.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

sabometrics[/b]]

Although it will not happen, Rickie should be in power spot in the lineup. He's developed into less of a leadoff hitter and more of a power hitter the last few years. He never bunts. He runs and steals less. He's been very good w/ RISP, over .300 the last two years. He has more natural power than anyone other than Fielder. In addition, he has matured as a hitter and doesn't look anxious during critical at bats. The argument that he is "comfortable" doesn't fly with me. He's paid a lot of money - do what's best for the team.

 

Morgan

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hart

McGehee

Bentacourt

Lucroy/pitcher

Pitcher/Gomez

 

Platoon Morgan/Gomez, leadoff Weeks against LHP

I agree with the premise here, and I do think the Brewers are wasting Rickie's power a bit in the leadoff spot, but I would not move Weeks behind Fielder and Braun. I think Weeks benefits from hitting in front of those guys, as he has a reputation of being a fastball hitter (and fangraphs data would support that). Plop Weeks in the 2 hole, slide everyone back a spot, and I think that's your optimal lineup, in my opinion.

 

I don't know that the % of fastballs would change much to what it is now. Opposing pitchers do have a buffer in between Weeks and Braun/Fielder called Gomez. To me, its logical to have your best OBP guys as far up in the lineup as possible while still being able to drive in runs. Teams would be forced to face Braun and Fielder in the 1st inning every game. Further, Rickie would likely not end up with 30 hr and 60 RBI hitting in the 4 hole. Morgan/Braun/Fielder would remind me a little of Molitor/Yount/Cooper - to go back a few years.