General Lineup Discussion: 2011

[ELCABALLO45]

I wish Morgan could hit against lefties so we could go

 

Morgan

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Kotsay/Gomez

Betancourt

Nieves/Kottaras

Pitcher

[tstads20]

Trenni to the rescue...

 

vs. LH in 2010

 

Morgan: 71 g, .200 avg, .280 OBP, 10 BB, 34 K

 

Gomez: 48 g, .196a, .271OBP, 8BB, 26 K

 

Doesn't necessarily justify batting Morgan up in the order, but you'd almost rather have him in against a lefty than Gomez since they're basically a wash. Their career numbers are on par with those too.

[razzzorsharp]

1) Morgan

2) Weeks

3) Fielder

4) Braun

5) McGehee

6) Hart

7) Lucroy

8) Bentancourt

 

I think by the end of the year, that may be the lineup we see.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I really don't see Lucroy getting out of the 8 spot, or Weeks leaving the leadoff spot. That's a good looking lineup that I'd love to see. I just don't think they will drop Weeks from leadoff, even when Morgan takes over CF. I would guess that they'll just platoon Gomez and Morgan in the 2 spot. We'll see I guess.

[twobrewers]

I'd love to hear an explanation for Gomez batting second against a right handed pitcher.

 

I'll take Morgan against a RHP any day of the week, and he would slide in very nicely at the top of the order. Morgan could be a Brewers for the next 3 or 4 years. Gomez is probably gone after this year. I can't believe that Gomez's defense can justify a 75 point OBP swing in the 2-hole.

 

How long are we going to suffer the OBP that is Gomez?

[PrinceEatMeat]

Yeah, I don't understand why Gomez is still in the 2 spot. In my opinion, Morgan should hit there against right-handed pitchers, and Hart should hit there against left-handers when he comes back. Something like this...

 

vs. RHP

 

Weeks

Morgan

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Betancourt

Lucroy

 

vs. LHP

 

Weeks

Hart

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Betancourt

Gomez

Lucroy

[danzig6767]

I'd love to hear an explanation for Gomez batting second against a right handed pitcher.

 

I'll take Morgan against a RHP any day of the week, and he would slide in very nicely at the top of the order. Morgan could be a Brewers for the next 3 or 4 years. Gomez is probably gone after this year. I can't believe that Gomez's defense can justify a 75 point OBP swing in the 2-hole.

 

How long are we going to suffer the OBP that is Gomez?

I'd love to hear it also because i can't envision an explanation that makes logical sense. If we were a rebuilding team like say the Pirates, i guess Roenicke could come up with something about wanting to give a still young Gomez confidence, even if i wouldn't think it makes sense.

 

The Brewers this year though hope to contend for a division title that could end up being decided by a single game or two, him not only batting Gomez 2nd, but also batting him 2nd with a righthander on the mound while Morgan sits it's so annoying.

 

Hell, if he wants to keep Gomez in the lineup for his defense, then start Morgan in RF instead of Kotsay and bat Nyger second. I'd be perfectly fine with that because it gives us great speed in CF/RF defense wise and i like Morgan in the two hole vs RH starters.

 

What about this seems to fly right over the head of Roenicke? Is he still having fantasies that Gomez can bat over .300 like he did in spring? It really is baffling.

[Warning Track Power]

I really don't see Lucroy getting out of the 8 spot, or Weeks leaving the leadoff spot. That's a good looking lineup that I'd love to see. I just don't think they will drop Weeks from leadoff, even when Morgan takes over CF. I would guess that they'll just platoon Gomez and Morgan in the 2 spot. We'll see I guess.

I don't want to see Lucroy in the 8 spot at all, I'd rather see him at 7. After watching the JJ experiment hitting in front of the pitcher, I don't want Lucroy to not see anything to hit all year. As I am already expecting little to nothing out of Betancourt, I would rather he learn how to deal with being pitched around and hopefully limit his lousiness by drawing a few more walks in 2011. I feel by batting Lucroy #7 and Betancourt #8, we will maximize the production of both.

 

I have high hopes for Lucroy and think he could put up a line of .270/.330, 8 HR, 50 RBI this season if he bats in the #7 hole.

 

As for the rest of the lineup, I prefer:

 

CF Morgan (RF until Hart returns)

2B Weeks

LF Braun

1B Fielder

3B McGehee

RF Hart (CF Gomez until Hart returns)

C Lucroy

SS YuBet

 

Weeks should be in the #2 hole now. It makes the most sense to me. Although, I like the idea of Rickie leading off with a single or double with Morgan moving him over with a sac bunt for Braun/Fielder/McGehee. Weeks in the #2 hole will allow him to hit more often with runners on base and possibly drive in a Morgan from 1st with a double. BTW, pitching to 2-6 in that lineup is ridiculous. All 30 HR potential and all .280+ AVG potential. Amazing.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Truthfully, Roenicke is just giving Gomez a fair amount of time in the lineup. I know it seems to us that he should already be out of the lineup, but Roenicke has to give his players a chance. I would imagine that it won't take much longer for him to lose playing time. My guess is that time will be when Hart returns. Roenicke has already said he might stick Hart in the 2 spot anyway. I really don't have a problem with Gomez being in the lineup right now, but I do have a problem with him hitting 2nd. But really, no one except Morgan makes sense hitting 2nd, and that makes Kotsay the problem. All of our problems would be solved if this infatuation with Kotsay would just end. Our lineup right now should be...

 

Weeks

Morgan

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Betancourt

Gomez

Lucroy

[danzig6767]

Truthfully, Roenicke is just giving Gomez a fair amount of time in the lineup. I know it seems to us that he should already be out of the lineup, but Roenicke has to give his players a chance. I would imagine that it won't take much longer for him to lose playing time. My guess is that time will be when Hart returns. Roenicke has already said he might stick Hart in the 2 spot anyway. I really don't have a problem with Gomez being in the lineup right now, but I do have a problem with him hitting 2nd. But really, no one except Morgan makes sense hitting 2nd, and that makes Kotsay the problem. All of our problems would be solved if this infatuation with Kotsay would just end.

I wouldn't go that far. Even when Roenicke has been smart enough to start both of Gomez and Morgan, his brain locks up and he bats Gomez in the two hole instead of Morgan.

[Warning Track Power]

Truthfully, Roenicke is just giving Gomez a fair amount of time in the lineup. I know it seems to us that he should already be out of the lineup, but Roenicke has to give his players a chance. I would imagine that it won't take much longer for him to lose playing time. My guess is that time will be when Hart returns. Roenicke has already said he might stick Hart in the 2 spot anyway. I really don't have a problem with Gomez being in the lineup right now, but I do have a problem with him hitting 2nd. But really, no one except Morgan makes sense hitting 2nd, and that makes Kotsay the problem. All of our problems would be solved if this infatuation with Kotsay would just end.

I wouldn't go that far. Even when Roenicke has been smart enough to start both of Gomez and Morgan, his brain locks up and he bats Gomez in the two hole instead of Morgan.

Batting Gomez 2nd is more about getting him more fastballs between Weeks and Braun, as well as avoiding the dreaded Gomez, Betancourt, Nieves trio at the bottom of the lineup. As much as I would rather see Morgan at #1 or #2, I would be loathe to see that trio come up consecutively in an inning.

 

 

[Baldkin]

Giving Gomez an extra AB a game over Morgan is way worse than any situation of putting those other 3 hitters together.

[danzig6767]

Truthfully, Roenicke is just giving Gomez a fair amount of time in the lineup. I know it seems to us that he should already be out of the lineup, but Roenicke has to give his players a chance. I would imagine that it won't take much longer for him to lose playing time. My guess is that time will be when Hart returns. Roenicke has already said he might stick Hart in the 2 spot anyway. I really don't have a problem with Gomez being in the lineup right now, but I do have a problem with him hitting 2nd. But really, no one except Morgan makes sense hitting 2nd, and that makes Kotsay the problem. All of our problems would be solved if this infatuation with Kotsay would just end.

I wouldn't go that far. Even when Roenicke has been smart enough to start both of Gomez and Morgan, his brain locks up and he bats Gomez in the two hole instead of Morgan.

Batting Gomez 2nd is more about getting him more fastballs

between Weeks and Braun,

What do you base this belief on that pitchers will pitch to Gomez any differently than if he's batting 2nd in the order or 8th?

 

Gomez doesn't take walks or show any patience at the plate regardless of where he's batting in the lineup, so if i was a pitcher i'd pitch to him the exact same way regardless if he was batting in the two hole or 8th. My only objective in either situation would be to get Gomez out and the best way to accomplish that is by not throwing him many strikes because he's proven over and over again that he'll swing at lots of garbage outside of the strike zone. Thus, just because he's batting 2nd in the order, there would be no reason to throw him more fastballs in the strike zone because he has no plate discipline regardless of where he is in the lineup.

 

As much as I would rather see Morgan at #1 or #2, I would be loathe to see that trio come up consecutively in an inning.

 

Yea, it would suck having a trio of Gomez, Betancourt, and Nieves batting one after another at the bottom of the order, but our 3/4/5 hitters clearly are the best hitters in the lineup outside of Weeks. For guys like Braun and Fielder to drive in runs, they need players on base to do so and Gomez spends way to much time in the dugout after making an out. Plus, Lucroy is back, so even if Nieves is kept, he shouldn't be playing much. There simply are no logical reasons for batting Gomez second, that's why it's so baffling and frustrating for Brewers fans to see Roenicke continue doing it.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd love to hear an explanation for Gomez batting second against a right handed pitcher.

 

The sad truth is that the answer would be something about sacrifice bunting, bunting for hits, staying out of the double play, and stealing bases to get into scoring position in front of Braun & Fielder.

 

Weeks/Morgan is such an obvious 1-2 (in either order). It's just painful to watch Roenicke continue to get it so wrong.

 

 

Is he still having fantasies that Gomez can bat over .300 like he did in spring?

Carlos has changed his whole approach! Line drives back up the middle & to right field!

 

It's actually to the point where I'm happier seeing Gomez try to bunt his way on. Seems like a higher percentage play.

[danzig6767]

I'd love to hear an explanation for Gomez batting second against a right handed pitcher.

 

The sad truth is that the answer would be something about sacrifice bunting, bunting for hits, staying out of the double play, and stealing bases to get into scoring position in front of Braun & Fielder.

 

Weeks/Morgan is such an obvious 1-2 (in either order). It's just painful to watch Roenicke continue to get it so wrong.

Even if that is Roenicke's reasoning, Morgan is probably a more reliable bunter and very close to being as fast as Gomez. Nyger would then also offer much better on base skills for when Roenicke didn't want a bunt. Plus, Roenicke strikes me as a type who wants guys who make contact and Gomez strikes out more than Morgan does.

 

So even if Roenicke isn't heavy into stats and wants his two hole hitter to have speed, be able to bunt, and make contact, Morgan qualifies on all three on top of being able to get on base. All the more reason to make this baffling.

[logan82]

So Morgan is a better #2 hitter for all the right reasons and all the wrong reasons.

[Warning Track Power]

What do you base this belief on that pitchers will pitch to Gomez any differently than if he's batting 2nd in the order or 8th?

 

It is my belief as to what RR's thinking is as to why he bats Gomez 2nd. If you are between Weeks and Braun/Fielder, you inevitably are going to be attacked moreso than those three. I agree with your thought that because of his free swinging nature pitchers don't have to necessarily pound the strike zone with fastballs. In spite of that, I have to believe pitchers would be apt to give Gomez even less to hit in the 8 hole in front of the pitcher. Additionally, Gomez would be less likely to run in front of the pitcher for fear of getting thrown out and leading off the next inning with a pitcher hitting. In essence, since Gomez gets himself out frequently, placing him a spot where he may see one more fastball per AB is worth it. Keep in mind this is all my speculation on why RR bats him there and not my preferred lineup (see previous post in thread where I bat Gomez 6th while Hart is out).

 

 

(edit: long quote --1992)

[Dollarbill13]

I've been playing with Retrosheet's play by play data from the 2010 Brewers and figured I'd post total plate appearances by lineup position in various sitiuations.

 

 

<table style="width: 1047px; height: 196px;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 84pt;" width="112">
<col style="width: 128pt;" width="170">
<col style="width: 91pt;" width="121">
<col style="width: 128pt;" width="171">
<col style="width: 84pt;" width="112">
<col style="width: 128pt;" width="170">
<tbody><tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; width: 84pt; text-align: center;" width="112" height="20">Lineup
Position</td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 128pt; text-align: center;" width="170">Plate Appearances</td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 91pt; text-align: center;" width="121">PA w/ Runners On</td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 128pt; text-align: center;" width="171">PA w/ Runners On & 2 Out</td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 84pt; text-align: center;" width="112">PA w/ RISP</td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 128pt; text-align: center;" width="170">PA w/ RISP & 2 Out</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">1</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">771</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">272</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">120</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">160</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">84</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">2</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">752</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">344</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">140</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">176</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">93</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">3</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">733</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">330</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">101</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">184</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">67</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">4</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">717</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">376</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">181</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">215</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">106</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">5</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">701</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">334</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">141</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">210</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">98</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">6</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">682</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">329</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">137</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">195</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">96</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">7</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">668</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">307</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">131</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">198</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">88</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">8</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">653</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">307</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">130</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">198</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">96</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 15pt;" height="20">
<td class="xl63" style="height: 15pt; text-align: center;" height="20">9</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">627</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">290</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">136</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">167</td>
<td style="text-align: center;" class="xl63">91</td>
</tr>
</tbody></col></col></col></col></col></col></table>

 

Gomez at #2 is killing us...

[Mays Hayes]

I pray that I get to see this lineup someday:

 

Morgan

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Betancourt

Lucroy

Greinke

 

But I don't think RRR will take Weeks out of the leadoff spot, even though it's the right thing to do. The only problem with this is you'd have to move Weeks back up to the lead off spot when Gomez plays, and perhaps a player might not like that. I'd still be excited about this same lineup with Weeks leading off and Morgan batting seconds as long as Hart moves up to the 2 hole when Gomez plays.

[Dollarbill13]

I'd actually love to see this:

 

Weeks

Braun

Hart

Fielder

McGehee

Morgan

Betancourt

Lucroy

Pitch

[Warning Track Power]

I pray that I get to see this lineup someday:

 

Morgan

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

McGehee

Hart

Betancourt

Lucroy

Greinke

 

But I don't think RRR will take Weeks out of the leadoff spot, even though it's the right thing to do. The only problem with this is you'd have to move Weeks back up to the lead off spot when Gomez plays, and perhaps a player might not like that. I'd still be excited about this same lineup with Weeks leading off and Morgan batting seconds as long as Hart moves up to the 2 hole when Gomez plays.

I'll pray with you Hayes. I'd flip Lucroy and Betancourt but that's it.

 

 

[FVBrewerFan]

Well, first game of Bucs series there's Gomez back in the line-up vs a RHP- and batting 2nd. Impossible to prove, but I would bet this is more of a Melvin decision that Roenicke. RRR probably doesn't have too much of a problem with it, or I'm sure he would tell Melvin he's going with a strict platoon. My guess is he's 50/50 on it, so he 's going along with Melvin's wishes this early in the season. i don't want to sound like Melvin is dictating and RR HAS to do what he says. It's more subtle than that.

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin is pretty hands-off when it comes to managers. This is 100% Roenicke imo.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. Although, you'd have to think that Melvin wants Gomez to succeed to make himself look better. Then again, he also traded for Morgan, so really it doesn't matter. I still think it's Roenicke making all the decisions with the lineup. Melvin definitely was a reason for guys like Kotsay and Nieves being on the roster and team though.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm about ready to pull my hair out. There's no credible reason, nothing at all that would suggest Gomez should be playing vs. righties while Morgan sits on the bench.

 

It's too bad this team didn't have someone who was better suited for batting 2nd.............

 

Hm.......