Brewers trade Villanueva to Toronto for a PTBNL [Latest: Brewers get cash]

[Roderick]

he's earned the opportunity to go into the rotation".

Mark it down. Kiss of death.

That's his manager's words, not mine. My point isn't that dealing Villanueva was a bad idea necessarily but that the timing insured minimal return.

Yes, sorry didn't mean to leave your name on it.

[JohnBriggs12]

I watched much of this game on the Extra Innings package. The Yankee telecast team of Michael Kay and Paul O'Neil were extremely impressed with Villanueva and his assortment of pitches.

 

It would appear he'll get another start on Sunday.

 

I hope he does well. I always felt the Brewers never realized what they had in Villanueva. Maybe it was because they hadn't invested a high pick or gave up much to get him and he had an average fastball. They constantly spent money year after year on guys like Looper, and Davis, and gave chance after chance to Parra, while complaining they had too because they didn't have any young starting pitchers. This after essentially giving up on Carlos as a starter after 9 starts in 2008.

 

I think they may have learned something about ignoring what you have. A case in point is Narveson, and now Estrada.

[LouisEly]

Looking at his numbers from 2008-2010 his OPS-A as a starter was .919 - nothing about that suggests he was any good or the Brewers were "ignoring what they had". What they had was a replacement-level pitcher.

[Bernman23]

Carlos was, is, and will always be a good pitcher. In 2 different seasons he was arguably the Crew's most valuable reliever. His ERA's were often deceptive because he'd get bombed in a small minority of appearances but keep runs off the board otherwise. Then he had a little rough patch and the F.O. sold low like they often had. Now, the Jays are reaping the benefits.

[danzig6767]

Carlos was, is, and will always be a good pitcher. In 2 different seasons he was arguably the Crew's most valuable reliever. His ERA's were often deceptive because he'd get bombed in a small minority of appearances but keep runs off the board otherwise. Then he had a little rough patch and the F.O. sold low like they often had. Now, the Jays are reaping the benefits.

I don't know about that. I just looked through his game logs during his time with the Brewers and they look very similar to other relievers with mediocre results.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7772/gamelog;_ylt=AlyUlPoNguEsyu7mXQGr8B.FCLcF?year=2010

[jjfanec]

Carlos continues to pitch well for the Blue Jays. 5-1 in 7 starts with an ERA of 3.15. His WHIP is very un-Carlos at 1.03. He seems to be focusing less on striking guys out but is getting very good results. He is giving up a lot of fly balls still but his control is much better. He was not very good the past couple years and he would not be a starter on this years team but he is having a good year

[HiAndTight]

Looking at his numbers from 2008-2010 his OPS-A as a starter was .919 - nothing about that suggests he was any good or the Brewers were "ignoring what they had". What they had was a replacement-level pitcher.

A-He was 24 and 25 years old.

B-He made a total of 15 starts in those two years, and not a single one in 2010(so not sure why his starters OPS would be included other than to make it appear as though he was actually given more chances than he truly was).

 

I was always a big fan of Villanueva as a starting pitcher. He could make guys look absolutely foolish at times. I think he profiled(s) better as a starting pitcher than a reliever.

 

It was rather baffling how they would consistently be searching for any warm body to pitch innings and he was taken out of the rotation very quickly.

[JohnBriggs12]

Looking at his numbers from 2008-2010 his OPS-A as a starter was .919 - nothing about that suggests he was any good or the Brewers were "ignoring what they had". What they had was a replacement-level pitcher.

A-He was 24 and 25 years old.

B-He made a total of 15 starts in those two years, and not a single one in 2010(so not sure why his starters OPS would be included other than to make it appear as though he was actually given more chances than he truly was).

 

I was always a big fan of Villanueva as a starting pitcher. He could make guys look absolutely foolish at times. I think he profiled(s) better as a starting pitcher than a reliever.

 

It was rather baffling how they would consistently be searching for any warm body to pitch innings and he was taken out of the rotation very quickly.

All excellent points. Villanueva now has 34 career starts. He's 10-13 with a 4.66 ERA and a 1.387 WHIP. Brewers were giving millions to guys like Looper and Davis for just that kind of production (and generally not getting it). They were also consistently trotting out Parra (23-26 as a starter with a 5.44 ERA and 1.692 WHIP).

[TheCrew07]

At least in Parra's case isn't that the age old argument between Talent and Results? He needed to be given room to fail, however I do agree with the Looper/Davis comparison, his talent was certainly on par with those guys.

[Funketown]

At least in Parra's case isn't that the age old argument between Talent and Results? He needed to be given room to fail, however I do agree with the Looper/Davis comparison, his talent was certainly on par with those guys.

Yeah, with where the Brewers were at that time (a .500 team), I think it was worth the gamble to give Parra a chance.

 

In hindsight, they certainly would have been better off spending the $10 million on Looper/Davis on somebody else. I honestly didn't realize Villanueva's numbers were as good as they were. One thing that is pretty concerning about Villa as a starter is his splits for 1st/2nd/3rd time facing a hitter. Most pitchers struggle more when facing a hitter the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time, but Villa's splits are pretty extreme.

 

1st: .297/.375/.672 (tOPS+ 86)

2nd: .346/.473/.818 (tOPS+ 126)

3rd: .369/.589/.958 (tOPS+ 161)

[TheCrew]

Villy has gotten pretty lucky this year - .241 BABIP is pretty darn low. As Funketown pointed out as well, he always got mauled 3rd time through the lineup.

 

IMO he is best suited as a long reliever - wish the Brewers would have hung onto him, but the emergence of Estrada in the long relief/emergency starter role has worked just fine for the crew this year.

[Thurston Fluff]

I guess it all depends on how much money the team is willing to spend on long relief. I tend to think that is an area you can skimp on. For Carlos' sake I'm happy they didn't try t keep him in that role. I always liked him. As it turns out he gets a much better shot there than he would have here. Though I guess he would have been the top candidate to take Greinke's spot at the beginning of the season so maybe not. Either way I'm happy he's getting a fair shot and is doing well. I hope it continues.