Brewers trade Villanueva to Toronto for a PTBNL [Latest: Brewers get cash]

[valpocrewsader]

Nothing profound, but Carlos was possibly my favorite Brewer over these last couple years. When the Brewers made the playoffs I decided to buy my first Brewers jersey and walked out of Miller Park with a handsome Villy #12 retro. Something about the guy's super cool, calm demeaner on the mound. Total poise. I always respected it, and more often than not his results were solid.

[HiAndTight]

RockCoCougars]

Yes, but how about this:

 

2010

Hardy .320/.394/.714 (with more home runs and three fewer RBI's in about 175 less plate appearances- and about half the errors with 100 fewer chances)

Those aren't exactly impressive numbers. Add to the fact that he's got 6 years in the big leagues now(close to 6 anyway as we all know) and Escobar's a rookie and I fail to see how these numbers are a strong argument for Hardy. Even with the advantage of hindsight it's not THAT clear that Hardy's a better option than Escobar, forgetting expectations that Escobar should be a better defender with more range and his bat should improve a great deal(lets not forget Hardy was hitting below .200 the first half of his rookie year).

 

Hardy looks to have regressed a great deal, and again, Gomez wasn't a good haul for him, but it's not like we traded him and he went back to his 25 HR a year production. He hit 6 last year.

[RockCoCougars]

I for one was never sold on Escobar, because I'm always leery of all glove, no bat type guys. I was hoping that he would have been used as trade bait back in '09 for Halladay (wouldn't have happened) or Peavy (bullet dodged). He needs to get a lot better both offensively and defensively, because one of the problems last season is that they had a lot of easy outs at the bottom of the lineup in Escobar, Gomez, LuCroy and the pitcher. Hopefully he gets things figured out this season, like Hardy did at 24. I don't care if he hits with power, but he needs to get the average up to at least .270 and steal some bases (and improve defensively).

[joepepsi]

I was never sold on Escobar either. Always smelled like a lot of crap to try and get another team to take him in trade since Hardy was an "All Star SS" with good power. But Hardy fell apart and was getting expensive fast, so it made sense to change gears, keep Escobar and trade Hardy instead. Don't forget, JJ made $5.1 million last year. If he goes to arbitration again, he'll get another raise. The Brewers shouldn't be paying $5 million for this modest level of production. Trading him was the right move.

 

JJ's service time, his 2009 performance, and Escobar's very good season in AAA forced the Brewers' hand on this one.

[Invader3K]

I don't understand why a thread about Villanueva is rehashing the tired Escobar/Hardy argument yet again.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't understand why a thread about Villanueva is rehashing the tired Escobar/Hardy argument yet again.

This quote: "And can "we stop blaming Macha for "ruining" players? If he was

over-using someone, ok, I'll buy the argument. But that's not the case

with Villy. He played his own way to AAA."

 

I don't think that I'm alone in my feeling that Macha had it in for Villanueva almost from day one. Like Hardy, he was dumped at low value after being exiled to Nashville. There has also been a double standard on this team, some guys get sent to AAA for stinking up the field, some don't.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think that I'm alone in my feeling that Macha had it in for Villanueva almost from day one.

Well he is a racist, after all

[TooLiveBrew]

"Milwaukee will always be my No. 1 place," said Villanueva. "I was treated with so much respect there. The fans were good to me. I'm going to miss playing in Milwaukee with the stadium packed, day in and day out. It's a place I will miss."

...

 

"This is a good opportunity for those young guys who came up last season," said Villanueva. "I'm going to really miss those guys. They did a good job.

 

"I figured something was going to happen once they tendered me a contract but maybe not this fast. It's shocking a little bit. I had some ups and downs there but i was part of a special team in '08 that went to the playoffs.

 

"I've already talked to Toronto's general manager and he made me feel welcome and wanted. I know it's a tough division to play in. I'm excited. It will be a challenge for me."

Link

[bucksbeat]

You can't ask for a more glowing review from a previous player than that.

[Invader3K]

I don't think that I'm alone in my feeling that Macha had it in for Villanueva almost from day one. Like Hardy, he was dumped at low value after being exiled to Nashville. There has also been a double standard on this team, some guys get sent to AAA for stinking up the field, some don't.

 

Well, you can't send every under performing player down at every point. Hardy definitely deserved to be sent down in '09, and Villy got sent down mainly because there wasn't room for him at the time. By his quotes, he didn't seem to feel Macha hated him or the organization was carrying some sort of double standard as you like to say.

[dlk9s]

Good riddance, personally did not like this guy.

This seems overly harsh. Did he steal your blankie or something?

[CheezWizHed]

I don't understand why a thread about Villanueva is rehashing the tired Escobar/Hardy argument yet again.

This quote: "And can "we stop blaming Macha for "ruining" players? If he was

over-using someone, ok, I'll buy the argument. But that's not the case

with Villy. He played his own way to AAA."

 

I don't think that I'm alone in my feeling that Macha had it in for Villanueva almost from day one. Like Hardy, he was dumped at low value after being exiled to Nashville. There has also been a double standard on this team, some guys get sent to AAA for stinking up the field, some don't.

I'll buy your last statement about some being sent to AAA and some didn't. But I'd also add that some had MiLB options, some didn't. Some had viable replacements, some didn't. Villy had both and option and a viable replacement.

 

But I would still love to see evidence that Macha "ruined" Villy. He got consistent work from opening day until the day they sent him down. He was not over, nor under-used. His results started terrific for 1/2 month, then shot to terrible for two months, and in July, rebounded to "bad". Please enlighten me how Macha caused this.

 

I could also make similar arguments/questions about how Macha ruined Hardy and Gamel, but lets keep this about Villy.

[logan82]

Some had viable replacements, some didn't. Villy had both and option and a viable replacement.

 

How come Carlos Gomez wasn't sent down? He sucked, had options and a viable replacement.

[CheezWizHed]

How come Carlos Gomez wasn't sent down? He sucked, had options and a viable replacement.

 

I knew someone would bring that up. Because its so easy to forget that Cain was injured at the beginning of the year. He only played July and a bit of August in the minors (22 games total).

 

Then Cain was called up and Gomez WAS sent down (just not long enough).

[logan82]

CheezWizHed wrote:

Then Cain was called up and Gomez WAS sent down (just not long enough).

He wasn't really sent down. He was on rehabilitation assignment.

[trwi7]

Because its so easy to forget that Cain was injured at the beginning of the year.

Except that he wasn't.

[CheezWizHed]

Except that he was. Wasn't as long as I remember. I thought it was like a month (maybe it just seemed like it), but it was more like a week or two. Hamstring injury back in April/May.

 

My memory also tells me that he started slow post injury (lot of concern based on his injury the prior year), but for the life of me, I can't find any splits for the time in Huntsville.

[LouisEly]

Let's please keep this to Villanueva.

 

My opinion... CV was a mediocre reliever - not great, not terrible. He has a plus change, but the rest of his stuff isn't good enough where he can get by if he isn't hitting his spots perfectly. When he isn't hitting his fastball - or if they are sitting on it - he gets hit hard. CV gave up 7 HRs last year in only 202 ABs - for a reliever who faces a batter almost always only once in a game that isn't good. At that rate with the same number of ABs as Dave Bush faced (698) he would have given up 24 HRs vs. Bush's 28 (and Bush usually faces a batter 3+ times a game so the batter gets a better read on his pitches), and Parra in relief gave up only 2 HRs in 143 ABs and people wanted to run both of those guys out of town. That rate is slightly worse than CVs 3-year total of 20 HRs given up in relief over 682 ABs; not bad for a starter, but not good for a reliever who rarely faces a batter more than once. All changeup pitchers can get strikeouts; the problem is what happens when the batters don't miss the ball.

 

More likely, at this point I don't see CV as one of the five best relievers on the team - Axford, Braddock, Loe, Hawkins (when healthy) and Parra. Obviously that doesn't include Jeffress, who I would like to see tried as a starter again but that would make CV no better than 6th, and then if DiFelice is back that would make him #7. Beyond that I see him as the same as Kintzler, McClendon, and James so given he costs more than those three CV is the odd man out.

[crewcrazy]

I asked Tom Haudricourt (via Twitter) if we could expect an announcement on the PTBNL sometime soon now that the Rule 5 draft is taken care of, and he replied back saying they were just told that the PTBNL probably won't happen anytime soon, and that it "sounds like no big deal."

[BritInWI]

I asked Tom Haudricourt (via Twitter) if we could expect an announcement on the PTBNL sometime soon now that the Rule 5 draft is taken care of, and he replied back saying they were just told that the PTBNL probably won't happen anytime soon, and that it "sounds like no big deal."

Possibly because the preferred target was selected in the aforementioned draft and now they have to go back and re-evaluate?

[CheezWizHed]

You don't trade someone pre-Rule V draft if the only player you want is draft eligible. They have to be OK with player A or player B in return. Otherwise, you just wait until post draft.

 

I would guess there is some other rule holding this up (player X can't be traded until Y days after being drafted or Y days after being signed...).

[logan82]

CheezWizHed wrote:

I would guess there is some other rule holding this up (player X can't be traded until Y days after being drafted or Y days after being signed...).

I think the rule is can't be traded until a year after they sign. January sounds like an odd time for a player to sign. The deadline is in August. I know there were a couple reasons it could be extended but I think they got rid of that recently.

[And That]

The Brewers might be waiting until spring training, when they can fully appreciate that they may a need an extra body at a certain position. If three 2B get hurt in the second week of February, for instance, I'd expect to see a filler 2B come over from Toronto.

 

And if that doesn't happen, they might be able to select from a list that Toronto puts together.

[CheezWizHed]

I think the rule is can't be traded until a year after they sign. January sounds like an odd time for a player to sign. The deadline is in August. I know there were a couple reasons it could be extended but I think they got rid of that recently.

 

Yeah, I didn't really have a specific rule in mind, just theorizing... And That's theory sounds pretty good.

[TooLiveBrew]

Has there been an official announcement on who the PTBNL is?