BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot; Latest: Alomar and Blyleven elected (reply #35)

[JimH5]

http://bbwaa.com/

http://baseballhall.org/news/voting-news/final-countdown

 

The regular annual Hall of Fame ballot has been announced. . .Some compelling names on there. . .

 

My ballot would include Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Barry Larkin & Lee Smith.

 

 

More steroid era guys are going to start showing up on this list. . .McGwire, Palmeiro, Santiago, Walker, Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez. Not sure how we're ever going to be able to sort this out. I can't see how they're going to ignore so many of the big names.

[Invader3K]

Palmeiro should get in, steroid connection or not. Only one of four men to ever have 500 homers and 3000 hits. Hard to ignore that. I hope Blyleven gets in, and Dave Parker should get more consideration with Dawson's induction. I do think Alomar should get in. Not sure on Larkin or Bagwell. Kind of borderline IMHO.

[joepepsi]

Ok with Parker, but not sure on Bagwell? Well, I guess that's why these HOF debates are so great.....

 

My votes go for Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Raines, and Trammell. The rest can wait for now.

[sveumrules]

I'd vote for everyone Jim said and add Tim Raines. Jack Morris I could go either way on, he had a long above average career with some postseason excellence which always seems to be worth a little extra.

 

Hall of Very Good for guys like Murphy and Mattingly who had great peaks but not much else. Walker because he played in Coors so long pre-humidor and didn't quite play enough to rack up the counting stats. Edgar for being a DH so long. Trammell and McGriff for never quite being the top guy at their position. Parker was probably a better pure hitter than Dawson but loses out in the speed, defense and sympathy departments.

 

As for the Steroids Wing I don't think McGwire or Palmeiro ever make it in. Juan Gone had serious power even when he was young and skinny but definitely bulked up after injury filled 94/95 seasons. I can't recall Bagwell ever having any formal connections to PED but he always seemed like an obvious one to me based on his physique and teammates (Clemens, Pettite, Caminiti).

[Outlander]

Will get in: Alomar, Blyleven

 

I would vote for: Alomar, Blyleven, Bagwell, Larkin, Parker, Raines, McGriff, Walker.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd vote for Bert Blyleven, Lee Smith and Jack Morris off that list. I still consider Blyleven somewhat of a stat compiler due to his long career and the fact that he was never really dominant, but I've been convinced. If guys like Don Sutton and Phil Niekro are in, I don't see how you can freeze Blyleven out- although I hate his constant campaigning. Smith was the best closer of the 80's, pitching in bandboxes - one of the last of the true firemen (as opposed to 9th inning specialists). Morris had a relatively short career and high ERA, but he won 250 games and in my opinion, should be in almost based on the '91 World Series alone.

 

Alomar will probably get in as well, but he wouldn't get my vote. That

said, it would be interesting seeing him give his induction speech since

apparently he has the AIDS.

 

To briefly summarize my annual rant...Tim Raines was not a Hall of Famer, OPS be damned- if Raines has such a great argument, what about Rusty Staub?

 

The only way that Palmeiro should get to the Hall of Fame is to buy a ticket. He was a poor man's Hal Morris before he hit the juice.

[greeg35]

maybe more of a rich man's Hal Morris http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[sveumrules]

The obvious difference between Raines and Rusty Staub is about 800 stolen bases. The control group I like to look at for Raines is Henderson, Brock and Morgan. All three were dominant basestealers and top of the order hitters in their time. I'd like to include Collins, Carey and Wagner as they're all top ten career SB and HOF but they played before CS were tracked so you can't really get an accurate success rate. Listed below are OBP/SLG, OPS+ and SB/CS%. Who's who?

 

392/427 | 132 | .809

401/419 | 127 | .808

385/425 | 123 | .847

343/410 | 109 | .753

[BrewCrewForever]

My ballot: Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin, McGwire and Raines.

[RockCoCougars]

The obvious difference between Raines and Rusty Staub is about 800 stolen bases. The control group I like to look at for Raines is Henderson, Brock and Morgan. All three were dominant basestealers and top of the order hitters in their time. I'd like to include Collins, Carey and Wagner as they're all top ten career SB and HOF but they played before CS were tracked so you can't really get an accurate success rate. Listed below are OBP/SLG, OPS+ and SB/CS%. Who's who?

 

392/427 | 132 | .809

401/419 | 127 | .808

385/425 | 123 | .847

343/410 | 109 | .753

Keep in mind that almost everyone on those early 80's Expos teams ran wild with guys like Ron LeFlore and Rodney Scott and Andre Dawson (I will be the first to admit that this is somewhat hypocritical because I used steals to help justify Dawson being a HOF). In my view, however, Raines wasn't a HOF. He had one Top 5 finish in the MVP balloting, and he was not an impact player after 1987 (though he hung around for another 14 years). Had he done better at maintaining his pace prior to '87 (keeping a career BA of over .300, etc.) he would have a stronger case. That said, to me, he's a guy who had a pretty brief prime (albiet not as good as those of Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Mattingly, etc.), and hung around forever as an ordinary player. He was a good leadoff hitter, but to me Bobby Bonds was better, and he doesn't even warrant HOF consideration because his career was shorter.

[Principessa21]

And yet again I'm going to say that Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the HoF. But I don't know if he'll ever get in.

[And That]

This is Dave Parker's 15th year on the ballot? Wow.

[Outlander]

On Dave Parker's second year on the ballot he had 24.5%, which was Blyleven's first year, he had 17.5%. It's interesting how some guys are able to gain momentum while others can never gain steam or even lose votes in Parker's case.

[pitchleague]

I lost all respect for Raines and his HOF career when I opened a pack of baseball cards (1990 I think) and his card had him as "Rock Raines." Yes, I realize that was his nickname but "Rock" was not in quotation marks as if that was his given name. Coincidentally, that was about the time that he became just an average player to me and not the speed demon he used to be.

 

I guess I would vote for these guys: Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Rafael Palmeiro, Lee Smith.

 

I would guess that only Alomar and Blyleven will get in. McGwire will garner his 20-ish% again and Palmeiro will get enough to stay on the ballot for another year, too.

[clancyphile]

Palmeiro, McGwire, Blyleven, Edgar Martinez, Lee Smith, Jack Morris.

 

Alomar's downgraded over the spitting incident.

[TooLiveBrew]

Alomar gets downgraded for one bad non-performance related incident, but two of the biggest 'roiders in the game's history make your ballot?

[splitterpfj]

Tim Raines

 

Bert Blyleven

 

Barry Larkin

 

Dale Murphy

 

Jack Morris

[splitterpfj]

My votes...Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin and Raines.

[PKBadger]

If we're picking marginal reasons to downgrade players, I'll say Bagwell doesn't get in because of that ridiculous-looking goatee.

[Baldkin]

Raines, Raines, Raines and Raines. Probably the second best leadoff hitter ever.

 

Blyleven, Alomar and Martinez are my other votes. I'd also lean towards Trammel and Larkin.

It truly is amazing how some players gain popularity (Sutter & Gossage) while others didn't at all (Quisenberry).

It's amazing how much what city guys played in still effects their HOF considerations.

[MNBrew]

I'd vote for...

 

Alomar, Blyleven, Edgar Martinez, McGriff, McGwire, Palmeiro, Raines, & Lee Smith

 

I'm on the fence about Parker & Morris, & I witnessed Morris' '91 Game 7 in person.

 

Rationale:

 

Alomar -- offensive & defensive stud

Blyleven -- no more of a "stat compiler" than Robin Yount, & stuck on many lousy teams; 287 wins, 3,701 K's, 242 CGs, & a 3.31 ERA make this a no-brainer; clearly HOF-worthy in my book

Edgar Martinez -- one of the game's best hitters, and as deserving as a DH as Paul Molitor

McGriff -- dominant power hitter & run producer for a long, long time

McGwire -- Gaylord Perry can be in without folks flinching but not McGwire? Perry was a caught-in-the-act & known life-long cheater, which is more than McGwire was (McGwire wasn't career-long), and I still think Perry's career stands on its own 2 feet. I'm not into double standards. McGwire's one of the best HR hitters ever; hit 49 HRs as a rookie, so his base-level power was exceptional and on a level few ever achieve. You could never honestly or accurately quantify how many of his HRs occurred only because of PED-type assistance.

Palmeiro -- 500 HRs, 3,000 hits; ditto the Perry rationale & double-standard rejection noted above

Tim Raines -- One of the best leadoff hitters & SB guys in history; power, RBIs, & OPS are irrelevant discussion points here

Lee Smith -- One of the best closers of all time, and the best closer not in the HOF; huge save totals & career dominance in bandboxes make accomplishments all the more impressive

[joepepsi]

Trammell and Lou Whitaker should both be in the HOF.

[DuWayne Steurer]

MNBrew brings up a great point. We know Gaylord Perry cheated and is in the hall of fame. McGwire was never 'caught', but he gets hardly a whimper of support.

 

My ballot.

 

Raines

McGwire.

Palmeiro

Alomar

Parker (If Dawson and Rice are in, doesn't Parker HAVE to be?)

[RockCoCougars]

MNBrew brings up a great point. We know Gaylord Perry cheated and is in the hall of fame. McGwire was never 'caught', but he gets hardly a whimper of support.

Perry definitely doctored the ball (as did most likely Don Sutton and several others), but I don't think that's the same as utilizing a substance that increases your strength and muscle mass and improves your bat speed. In my opinion, none of the guys who have admitted and/or tested positive for steroids should even be on the ballot. How can they be when Pete Rose is not?

[greeg35]

is jalapeño illegal?