College Basketball 2010-2011

[TooLiveBrew]

My issue though is they play such tight on ball/man pressure that to often they get beat off the dribble and this leads to their defense falling apart into scramble situations where an opposing player gets either left wide open in the paint or behind the three point line. The scrambling around also leaves a defense more prone to allowing offensive boards.

 

I haven't really watched Marquette this season & this is without looking at stats, but something else I'd assume would arise from this style is more fouls being committed. Has that been an issue for MU as well, or have they been disciplined enough to avoid it as a chronic problem?

[danzig6767]

Yet, there are people on this board that would rather do what Marquette does. There is definitely truth to the fact that not everybody is going to want to come to a team focused team like Wisconsin. The guy who wants to jump to the NBA in a year (think Vander Blue here as he made comments about going pro already in the fall) is not going to Wisconsin because they are not going to put up crazy numbers and get to shoot as much as say a Kemba Walker does at Georgetown. But they just need to look at how almost every Badger improves mightily while they are at Wisconsin -- Rob Wilson not included, and how athletic guys like Alando Tucker and Devin Harris thrived in Bo's system.

That's you saying this, not anyone here. There can surely be a middle ground between Marquette going largely all athlete and Wisconsin going mostly farm boys with a random top notch athlete sprinkled in here and there.

 

Have DJO type of player on this current Badgers team and they might actually be a threat to advance a few rounds in the NCAA Tournament instead of hoping for a Sweet 16 finish at best.

 

Bo Ryan has obviously done a great job at Wisconsin. He has lead the program to more NCAA Tournament bids under his tenure than the rest of UW coaches before him combined i believe. I'm not wanting him to be canned.

 

I just wish he could add a little more athletic ability to his teams so that come tournament time, they don't have to score 100 percent of their points in half court sets. This leaves them prone to getting bounced by any team in the big dance if their jumper isn't falling because they rarely ever get any points from transition offense. None. You get in the NCAA Tournament and most teams there play good half court defense and are highly motivated to play very hard on defense. Thus, if your team never runs in transition offense which can lead to some easy points, you are forced each game in the tournament to execute great in half court offense and the jumper gods need to be on your side because there will be little margin for error left to score enough points to keep advancing.

You are right. I probably put words in people's mouth.

 

One thing people needs to realize about recruiting is not all schools are created equal. Not to get in a big argument over what schools is better but I have read numerous times that certain players such as a Maymon or Rodney Williams from Minnesota were initially recruited by Wisconsin but they did not have the grades for Wisconsin. These players ended up playing at high level schools but they could not have qualified. Now it is not like Wisconsin is Northwestern but you do lose out on some recruits when your university has higher academic standards. Again schools like Minnesota and Marquette are good schools but they have looser restrictions on qualifying.

It's true that Wisconsin has tougher academic standards that some other schools, but i really don't think that's the main reason for why many of his teams have tended to lack the athletic ability of other good programs. I think the main reasons for it is more a mix that many really athletic and higher recruited wings simply don't want to play in the system that Bo runs and he's content with that. Ryan has confidence that he can take lesser athletes as a whole, especially at the wing spots and still win because Bo will get the most out of the kids he eventually signs.

 

There is truth in that also when you consider all of the success he's had. Bo does win a ton of games and generally gets the most out of kids he signs, even kids that were mainly recruited by mid-majors or lesser major programs. I suspect that he'll continue to find ways to win each year even though i have fears about where the scoring will come from next year. He just wins and until he actually misses the big dance some year, i'll just assume that he'll keep getting a bid.

 

That said, come NCAA Tournament time, i also will assume that their ceiling will continue being the Sweet 16 regardless of what seed they end up getting. Not enough athletic ability, not enough players with the ability to create a shot on their own if a good defense contains either Leuer/Taylor, and never getting any easy baskets via transition offense for the Badgers to keep advancing to where Bo finally could reach a Final Four which i really hope some day he gets to experience.

 

Bo's very disciplined system and his fabulous coaching which gets his players to actually execute how he wants allows for his teams to consistently beat the teams who aren't as good as UW along with roughly splitting with the upper tier teams in the Big Ten each year. That and his insane record at the Kohl Center is why he wins 20 plus games a season without random bad years. Come tourney time though where UW will face a good team each time, those teams will also tend to be disciplined/well coached which lessens that advantage Bo has during the regular season and often those other teams will be both disciplined and athletic. This can expose the lack of multiple guys on Ryan's teams who can create shots on their own and defensively, Bo's team defense can get picked apart easier by high quality teams that have multiple weapons.

 

Like i said before, i think Bo is a fabulous teacher of basketball and few coaches in college ball are able get near the max production from the roster of talent on hand as Ryan does. The list is short of coaches who have made the NCAA Tournament 10 straight years, much less at a school like Wisconsin who had so little tradition of basketball success. I just think if he recruited a little better and got at least a little more athletic, especially at the wing positions, he'd have had more success in the postseason. It's simply tough to win 4-5-6 straight games in the big dance for any team/head coach, but it's much tougher when from a pure talent perspective, many of those games your team is only even or at a disadvantage so that you have to keep out-executing the opponent to win. Eventually Bo's teams have a night where the jumpers aren't falling at a good clip and there aren't enough other options for points because they never get easy hoops in transition and the team lacks multiple creative scorers.

[danzig6767]

My issue though is they play such tight on ball/man pressure that to often they get beat off the dribble and this leads to their defense falling apart into scramble situations where an opposing player gets either left wide open in the paint or behind the three point line. The scrambling around also leaves a defense more prone to allowing offensive boards.

 

I haven't really watched Marquette this season & this is without looking at stats, but something else I'd assume would arise from this style is more fouls being committed. Has that been an issue for MU as well, or have they been disciplined enough to avoid it as a chronic problem?

Not really. Under Crean Marquette chronically would foul more than they got fouled, but this year under Buzz MU has actually made more free throws than opposing teams have even attempted.

 

Their problem IMO is they play a very pressure in your face style of defense that's effective when it's creating turnovers which then MU can quickly turn into easy baskets via transition offense. To often though someone gets beat off the dribble and then guys have to help which ends up leaving open shooters behind the arc or alone in the paint. Plus, because they are undersized, they double team a lot when the ball gets inside and Otule isn't on the court because he's their only guy 6'10 or bigger that's part of the playing rotation. When any defense doubles or traps a lot whether in college or pro ball, if the rest of the defenders aren't perfectly in sync with their rotations, there will be open shooters and that's been a problem in to many of there losses. Besides that, when your defense is scrambling a lot to help because someone got beat off the dribble or on a double team, it tends to take guys out of ideal defensive rebounding position and Marquette is already undersized when trying to rebound.

[dadofandrew]

The success the Badgers have had under Bo (and Dick Bennett before) is astounding to many of us who have been fans for 35 years. Wasn't that long ago when an NIT bid was a huge accomplishment.

 

As pointed out above, it's tough to win several games in a row versus top teams, as even a #1 seed is only favored by a comfy margin in its 1st game. One bad shooting night, one hot shooting night by an opponent, a couple touch fouls knocking a top player to the bench with 15 minutes left in the first half, that's all it takes. The tourney is a crapshoot, and usually, unless you are one of the top eight teams, it's a battle just making it past the first weekend. The reason that it is a joy to watch and enjoy is also why it's frustrating for a top team. A 4 of 7 series would yield a top 4 or 8 of almost exclusively the top 16 seeded teams. The one and done format is conducive to upsets, and that's why it's the spectacle it is.

[danzig6767]

I agree Al that there is some crapshoot aspect to the NCAA Tournament, all the socalled upsets each year are evidence to back it up.

 

That said, it's not a total crapshoot. It's not just luck that say Tom Izzo has reached so many Final Fours during the time Bo has coached the Badgers while Ryan hasn't reached the FF a single time even though both teams have often been seeded fairly close to each other and have finished close to each other in the Big Ten standings.

 

Izzo recruits and signs higher level players and athletes, thus when he gets into the tournament, his teams are still able to find ways to win games if say the jumper isn't falling much for his team. Izzo will often have multiple kids that can create their own shots off the dribble, they can get some easy baskets in transition offense, and they usually have the athletes to compete defensively once they advance to the Sweet 16 and have to start facing the upper tier teams with big time players/athletes.

 

A guy like Tim Jarmusz can hold his own defensively most nights in the Big Ten when facing the likes of Penn St., Northwestern, Indiana, Minnesota, and even some of the upper tier conference teams by being very fundamentally sound and adhering strictly to what Bo wants. The Badgers start advancing though in the NCAA Tournament, they can be facing upper tier teams and some big time athletes/players. Suddenly, the lack of quickness for Jarmusz gets exposed more. Bo might have Jarmusz, Gasser, and Bruesewitz on the court at the same time. Well, if your in the Sweet 16 and now facing a Kentucky, Duke, or Texas, those three will be trying to guard a whole different type of athlete/player that they won't be facing vs middle tier Big Ten teams. They also will have a tougher time trying to get their shots off and already they aren't good at creating their own shots.

 

That's why in most cases for Bo, i think his teams have stalled out before or at the Sweet 16. I'm not trying to diminish at all what he's accomplished overall at Wisconsin, it's been incredible and some bad mojo in one or two of the years might explain not advancing further. I just would like it more so for him to reach a Final Four than for me as a fan of the team, but i have my doubts because i think in general how he recruits makes it tougher to make deep runs in the tournament.

[dadofandrew]

As I said, the top 8 teams tend to make it through the first weekend easily, but not always, of course. There just isn't much difference between the 9th best team and the 22nd (3/6 matchup).

 

On a related note, when the 7/10 or 6/11 teams play, the lower seed is often simply a better team at the time, due to injuries, momentum, or just gelling more/better. Pretending it's an "upset" is kind of silly.

 

That said, Izzo has proven his ability over and over. Any dislike of him is envy or just goofy. I'm not a fan of Coach K for several reasons, but I'd never say he hasn't won a ton.

[danzig6767]

No question Al that once you get past about the top dozen teams/1-2-3 seeds each year, a higher seed losing in a game a stops being much of an upset. Once you get into the 5 seed area, losses aren't really upsets at all.

 

That said, Bo has been in the NCAA Tournament 10 times now and this year will be 11. I hope he and the team can advance to the Sweet 16 or further, but i see Sweet 16 being their ceiling unless they shoot really good from three for a long stretch of games because i don't think they can beat other good teams in the big dance without good three point shooting. They aren't diverse enough offensively to win much against good teams without the jumpers falling, but there are a sizable number of teams who are skilled enough to win in multiple different ways because they have better and more diverse athletes.

 

People can blame ESPN or kids today who want to be on highlights running the fast break, but either way, one of Bo's biggest strengths does also hurt him a bit. His very disciplined half court system which Ryan teaches his kids each year fabulously has resulted in lots of wins, but for a lot of high school kids deciding on where to play college ball, that style of play generally isn't attractive to them, especially very athletic/skilled wing players and in turn i think it hurts Bo's ability to recruit and sign some of them that he'd have liked to have.

[jjfanec]

That's why in most cases for Bo, i think his teams have stalled out before or at the Sweet 16. I'm not trying to diminish at all what he's accomplished overall at Wisconsin, it's been incredible and some bad mojo in one or two of the years might explain not advancing further. I just would like it more so for him to reach a Final Four than for me as a fan of the team, but i have my doubts because i think in general how he recruits makes it tougher to make deep runs in the tournament.

This could be what you were saying but I think the reason the Badgers usually stall out at the sweet 16 or round of 32 is because that is how good they really are. A couple times their seed was just ridiculous. One year they were ranked like 8 and got a 6 seed and had to play Pittsburgh (who was top 10) in round 2. Rough draw. Outside of that though I think they are a team who will always be a run away from making a little noise, but will probably finish their season right at their ranking. If you lose in the Sweet 16 you are between the 9 and 16th best team and if you lose in the round of 32 you are between the 17th and 32 best team. Sounds about where I would have the Badgers. If you team is between the 9th and 32nd best team each year that is impressive considering the powerhouses in college basketball taking up all the recruits. You have Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, Texas, UNC, Villanova, Georgetown, Syracuse, Ohio State and Michigan State. Heck, I am probably missing a team or two.

 

Wisconsin for numerous reason is just not as appealing as some of those schools - lack of tradition, offensive style, two other teams in conference that get more pub, Coach who is not going to be your best friend, me first attitude and not wanting to be forced to play defense, etc. Marquette is the same situation just different reasons for why the top recruits are not coming. They go to the JUCO well so much that it seems hard to get cohesion and player development. Yet, they are right in that same range (maybe one step down due to the first round losses) where they just need a couple breaks to make a run.

 

That said a team like Wisconsin is a break here or there from slipping into a final four. Butler's team last year was not more athletic. They got hot and a good draw. Even Michigan State got pretty lucky last year to make the final four - that said Izzo gets his team ready at the right time. In the tournament Bo's teams come out flat and I am not sure why that is. I dont think it is our style but maybe it is.

[homer]

Everyone keeps talking about the slow offense of UW holding them back in the tourney but it was the defense that was the issue the last couple of losses. Cornell shot 61%, Davidson shot 49% overall and 50% from beyond the arc, UNLV was 50% from beyond the arc. Sometimes teams get hot. Its not like Butler had a team of Olympic high jumpers last year. They had good matchups, went on a run, and made it to the title game.

[jjfanec]

Everyone keeps talking about the slow offense of UW holding them back in the tourney but it was the defense that was the issue the last couple of losses. Cornell shot 61%, Davidson shot 49% overall and 50% from beyond the arc, UNLV was 50% from beyond the arc. Sometimes teams get hot. Its not like Butler had a team of Olympic high jumpers last year. They had good matchups, went on a run, and made it to the title game.

You are exactly right. Bo's offense has its issues but his insistence to play man to man when a guy his torching them has hurt them a lot too. However, it is hard to imagine a team running into so many sharp-shooting teams in 3 straight years.

[danzig6767]

That's why in most cases for Bo, i think his teams have stalled out before or at the Sweet 16. I'm not trying to diminish at all what he's accomplished overall at Wisconsin, it's been incredible and some bad mojo in one or two of the years might explain not advancing further. I just would like it more so for him to reach a Final Four than for me as a fan of the team, but i have my doubts because i think in general how he recruits makes it tougher to make deep runs in the tournament.

 

That said a team like Wisconsin is a break here or there from slipping into a final four. Butler's team last year was not more athletic. They got hot and a good draw. Even Michigan State got pretty lucky last year to make the final four - that said Izzo gets his team ready at the right time. In the tournament Bo's teams come out flat and I am not sure why that is. I dont think it is our style but maybe it is.

No doubt. Even though in most seasons i think Bo's teams lack of multiple diverse scorers, lack of great athletes to be shut down defenders, and the style of play causing them to almost never get any easy baskets in transition have all factored in to varying degrees for no Final Four berths and just overall disappointing results in the big dance, luck is certainly also some factor. There are simply times where a team in the NCAA Tournament will say face another team who is on fire from the perimeter and/or your team is unusually frigid.

 

So even though i believe that Bo's overall recruiting is the biggest reason that he hasn't had more success in the NCAA Tournament, i do agree that if say they had been given a few different matchups or maybe had a hotter stretch of perimeter shooting, they could have made the FF in a previous season. This year Leuer and Taylor have developed into very good college players, but i just think their supporting cast offensively isn't good enough to make a deep run and they'll end up losing on one of those nights where they only score 48-55 points because the jumpers don't fall and they don't have anyway else to score enough points.

[jjfanec]

That said a team like Wisconsin is a break here or there from slipping into a final four. Butler's team last year was not more athletic. They got hot and a good draw. Even Michigan State got pretty lucky last year to make the final four - that said Izzo gets his team ready at the right time. In the tournament Bo's teams come out flat and I am not sure why that is. I dont think it is our style but maybe it is.

No doubt. Even though in most seasons i think Bo's teams lack of multiple diverse scorers, lack of great athletes to be shut down defenders, and the style of play causing them to almost never get any easy baskets in transition have all factored in to varying degrees for no Final Four berths and just overall disappointing results in the big dance, luck is certainly also some factor. There are simply times where a team in the NCAA Tournament will say face another team who is on fire from the perimeter and/or your team is unusually frigid.

 

So even though i believe that Bo's overall recruiting is the biggest reason that he hasn't had more success in the NCAA Tournament, i do agree that if say they had been given a few different matchups or maybe had a hotter stretch of perimeter shooting, they could have made the FF in a previous season. This year Leuer and Taylor have developed into very good college players, but i just think their supporting cast offensively isn't good enough to make a deep run and they'll end up losing on one of those nights where they only score 48-55 points because the jumpers don't fall and they don't have anyway else to score enough points.

Bo has missed a couple times with recruits recently including Timmy J, Evans, and Rob Wilson. None of those three guys are contributing on the offensive end. They are 2's or 3's but contributing very little on offense.

[homer]

Well that was certainly a bare bottom spanking. Love beating Izzo. I wonder if he'll cry about that three Brust made?

[hawing]

Well that was certainly a bare bottom spanking. Love beating Izzo. I wonder if he'll cry about that three Brust made?

For the most part I lack that killer competitive instinct that makes Americans Americans...but when Bo owns Izzo I make an exception. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jjfanec]

Well that was certainly a bare bottom spanking. Love beating Izzo. I wonder if he'll cry about that three Brust made?

For the most part I lack that killer competitive instinct that makes Americans Americans...but when Bo owns Izzo I make an exception. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

That was a great way to start a great sports day! Loved watching Izzo look like he had no answers as to why his team was getting pounded.

[homer]

For those that think Bo's style of play is only successful at home, check this out:

 

SUCCESS AT HOME - AND ON ROAD

Wisconsin's incredible success at the Kohl Center is well documented (148-11, .931 under Bo Ryan -- 4th best in the nation), but the Badgers have also been one of the nation's best on the road.

 

• Over the last five seasons (2006-07 to present), UW has gone 28-21 (.571) in true road games. That mark ranks as the 8th-highest win percentage among BCS conference teams.

 

Team Wins Losses Pct.

1. Kansas 37 11 .771

2. North Carolina 35 16 .686

3. Louisville 29 16 .644

4. Pittsburgh 30 17 .638

5. Villanova 34 20 .630

6. Duke 28 18 .609

7. UCLA 27 19 .587

8. Wisconsin 28 21 .571

9. Syracuse 25 19 .568

10. Georgetown 31 24 .564

[danzig6767]

Well that was certainly a bare bottom spanking. Love beating Izzo. I wonder if he'll cry about that three Brust made?

For the most part I lack that killer competitive instinct that makes Americans Americans...but when Bo owns Izzo I make an exception. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

That was a great way to start a great sports day! Loved watching Izzo look like he had no answers as to why his team was getting pounded.

This year's MSU team is the worst one i've seen in awhile, but i agree that it's always great to watch Izzo get frustrated by losing to Bo so often.

 

I will say though, the Badgers were making some silly shots on Sunday. Whenever the shot clock would run down close to zero, one of Taylor, Leuer, or Naikivil would drill a demoralizing three even if a defender had a hand in their face.

 

Keaton has been scorching hot this year from the perimeter, it's pretty amazing. The guy is a PF shooting near 55 percent from three this year and he takes a lot of them. He has to be the best jump shooting big man in the country. Come to the NCAA Tournament, he'll be so key to the Badgers chances to have any sort of run. Taylor and Leuer are top tier guys at their positions, but when Nakivil is drilling that three, he makes UW so much more productive offensively because defenses so often double Leuer and Taylor is able to draw in help defenders when he drives the paint. Nobody else is a consistent shooter like Keaton is.

[jason21nl]

what a big time come back win!

[pitchleague]

well, I was ready to pack it in five minutes into the 2nd half; started reading my paper and paying less attention to the game. Glad they didn't pack it in like I did. That was a fun game to watch.

[PeaveyFury]

Man, you take a Bo Ryan team and tell them they're supposed to be mediocre this year, and they significantly out perform the expectations every time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Man, you take a Bo Ryan team and tell them they're supposed to be mediocre this year, and they significantly out perform the expectations every time.

Yeah, you can do this with the Badgers just about every year.

 

I will say that this team is not exactly 'fun' to watch, but you can't deny a 19-5 record.

 

Just like every year, I look at the roster, I look at the schedule, and I think 'hm.........we lost so and so, and we lost this guy, probably looking like about a 19-11 team, about .500 in conference"

 

And every year, they prove me wrong.

 

Just would like to see a deep tourney run again. It's been a while.

[homer]

I will say that this team is not exactly 'fun' to watch, but you can't deny a 19-5 record.

-------------------

 

They scored 39 points in 13 minutes today. Who are you? Fran Fraschilla?

[DocBrewPack]

I think they are fun to watch, winning is fun to watch.

 

 

Ausome win today. #1 Ohio state does not want to come to madison ever again.

[PKBadger]

But they don't recruit enough athletic players!!

[LouisEly]

Both UW and Marquette with impressive come-from-16-points-down in the second half wins this week. I'm used to seeing them blow 16 point leads - can't remember the last time either of them came back from 16 point deficits. Ohio State fans must absolutely hate Wisconsin by now - we've peed on their parade twice this academic year.

 

I think some people forget how difficult it is to make it to the Final Four. There are 10 BCS bowl teams each year out of roughly 120 D-1 schools; the Final Four represents the top four out of over 300 D-1 schools. Statistically speaking, it is a lot more difficult to get to the Final Four than to a BCS bowl game. That being said, the concern is still there about who will step up to replace Leuer/Nankovil next year, and Jordan the year after.