College Basketball 2010-2011

[TooLiveBrew]

Bo just didn't recruit enough athleticism to round out the team for this year.

 

Bo never recruits enough athleticism. Imo his system doesn't allow him to do so. Why would a great attacking perimeter player want to play in the swing offense? It wouldn't make any sense for me if I'm said player.

[danzig6767]

It's a shame Bruesewitz continues to get the minutes he does, Offensively he seems to have no idea what his purpose on the floor is, but with this marking the 4th season in a row that Jarmusz has failed to step up.... he's been the same as always: Doesn't

turn the ball over, doesn't get beat on the defensive end, but doesn't

really do anything above average. What Bo wouldn't give for a decent small forward... or 3rd guard.

 

I think they can still make a run in the tournament, it will depend on Gasser stepping up and hitting his 3's.

Bo Ryan obviously knows tons more about coaching a college basketball team than i'll ever know, but his love of Tim Jarmusz is something i've tried figuring out and just can't do it. I understand that Jarmusz doesn't turn the ball over, hustles on defense, and buys in entirely to a team first mentality. That said, he's so useless offensively when his jumper isn't falling and defensively he does try hard, but he lacks the athletic ability to defend really skilled small forwards or shooting guards.

 

Bo has had and counted on other somewhat offensively limited guys like say Flowers and Krabbenhoft, but those guys were much better individual defenders than Jarmusz, Flowers especially was an elite defender. Even offensively those two could contribute more than Jarmusz in there own ways and Krabbenhoft was a really good rebounder for his size. Jarmusz on the other hand seems to me to be a master of no trades except trying hard and rarely turning the ball over, but it'd hard for him to turn it over anyways given that he never does anything with the ball except pass it right away after getting the ball or taking a few wide open three pointers each game.

[lukevan]

Bo just didn't recruit enough athleticism to round out the team for this year.

 

Bo never recruits enough athleticism. Imo his system doesn't allow him to do so. Why would a great attacking perimeter player want to play in the swing offense? It wouldn't make any sense for me if I'm said player.

He got Jordan Taylor, didn't he? He had Hughes. I realize he's not going to get any blue chippers but he's usually had a couple guys that can create something on the dribble but this year it's just one guy. Opponents just put their best perimeter defender on Taylor and know that he's basically the only one they'll need to play any help defense on. If Bo had a small forward or shooting guard that posed a threat there'd be more openings for Taylor.

 

We'll still probably finish top 4 in the Big Ten and make the tourney but I'm guessing the best they'll do is win a game or two if they get good matchups.

[TooLiveBrew]

He got Jordan Taylor, didn't he? He had Hughes.

 

I didn't say he doesn't get any. Just that imo he doesn't get enough.

[jjfanec]

He got Jordan Taylor, didn't he? He had Hughes.

 

I didn't say he doesn't get any. Just that imo he doesn't get enough.

I think Rob Wilson and Vander were supposed to provide athleticism. Rob just got worse as a player and Vander decommitted and went elsewhere (although he has not done much yet)

[lukevan]

He got Jordan Taylor, didn't he? He had Hughes.

 

I didn't say he doesn't get any. Just that imo he doesn't get enough.

I think he's gotten just enough in previous years but the Badgers are missing that second backcourt threat this year. Maybe Gasser becomes that but he's not there yet.

[MJLiverock]

Danzig hit on a point about having defensive first guys like Flowers or Krabby on the court. I agree that one of those guys on the court at a time isn't a problem and is probably good. It is beginning to look like 2 or 3 positions at a time are filled with players like that now. It is good to value defense but there has to be some balance, the whole team can't be scrappy, dive on the floor, defensive first, don't turn the ball over, never take chances players. In other words, it is very difficult to win games with a team of role players, none of whom has a role of scoring for their specialty. I fear that is what this team has in the past few recruiting classes and it will become glaring once Nankivil and especially Leuer are gone next year. Think of Penn State a couple years ago when all they had was Taylor Battle to play offense, he got good numbers but they didn't win a whole lot. WI with Jordan Taylor could well look like that.

 

There is an article in today's Wisconsin State Journal talking about having only three scorers isn't enough. One telling comment was:

 

“It’s tough playing defense. You get tired doing that, but when you come down offensively you have to dig it out and just be willing to work hard and cut and move and make good reads regardless of how tired you get,” Leuer said.

 

There is so much emphasis on defense that when it comes to offense they slack off- - why? Because playing defense gets you playing time, standing around on offense or hanging around the perimeter passing the ball around but not turning it over doesn't get you benched. There has to be some balance between defense and offense and right now the way the team is constructed and plays there isn't enough emphasis on scoring.

 

I always see posts or comments on message boards after losses dismissing the games as aberations because they didn't shoot well or that if they shot well they would have one. I see that as an obvious answer, of course if a team shoots well they have a better chance at winning. WI's problem is they aren't that good of a shooting team, especially against athletic teams that play zone. Sure WI can have a hot night and shoot well from 3 but night in and night out I'd bet against guys like Gasser, Jarmusz, Brusewitz, Valentyn, Smith, Evans, Wilson, etc. from lighting it up. I swear Evans will be a year out of college and I'll still hear people saying this is the year he'll break out an find his shooting ability.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think Rob Wilson and Vander were supposed to provide athleticism. Rob just got worse as a player and Vander decommitted and went elsewhere (although he has not done much yet)

Rob Wilson not progressing is a poor reflection not only on the player, but the coaching staff as well. I certainly don't claim to know the details of why Vander Blue decommitted & went to Marquette, but it definitely could be due to the offensive style run at each program. Wesley Matthews didn't want to play for Bo, either (again, I don't know the ins & outs of why).

 

I think it's kind of telling when we have to point to one guy, or a couple of guys & say that they're supposed to be the athletic ones. That's kind of my point, I'd much rather see Ryan & his staff out recruiting roster-wide athleticism where the Jarmuszes & Brusewitzes are the exceptions & not the rule. But imo the truth of the matter is that it's rare to find the thoroughbreds that want to run in a slowdown style of play & offense.

 

If you look at the Badgers' roster right now, there are the two obvious stars, and then a bunch of guys that really don't have good all-around game. There are guys that are defensive specialists, guys that are just kind of tall/big, guys that are real athletic. I know that not many programs are able to fill out entire rosters with good players, but I don't think the swing offense is conducive to enticing the top athletes in the country or even region to play for Bucky. As long as that's the case, I think Ryan & the Badgers will be stuck at good-but-not-great.

[danzig6767]

I think Rob Wilson and Vander were supposed to provide athleticism. Rob just got worse as a player and Vander decommitted and went elsewhere (although he has not done much yet)

Rob Wilson not progressing is a poor reflection not only on the player, but the coaching staff as well. I certainly don't claim to know the details of why Vander Blue decommitted & went to Marquette, but it definitely could be due to the offensive style run at each program. Wesley Matthews didn't want to play for Bo, either (again, I don't know the ins & outs of why).

 

I think it's kind of telling when we have to point to one guy, or a couple of guys & say that they're supposed to be the athletic ones. That's kind of my point, I'd much rather see Ryan & his staff out recruiting roster-wide athleticism where the Jarmuszes & Brusewitzes are the exceptions & not the rule. But imo the truth of the matter is that it's rare to find the thoroughbreds that want to run in a slowdown style of play & offense.

 

If you look at the Badgers' roster right now, there are the two obvious stars, and then a bunch of guys that really don't have good all-around game. There are guys that are defensive specialists, guys that are just kind of tall/big, guys that are real athletic. I know that not many programs are able to fill out entire rosters with good players, but I don't think the swing offense is conducive to enticing the top athletes in the country or even region to play for Bucky. As long as that's the case, I think Ryan & the Badgers will be stuck at good-but-not-great.

I don't follow Badger basketball recruiting close, but i do wonder how much the lack of athletic ability on the roster is by choice for Bo in the type of players he prefers for his system or simply more a matter that that the better athletes who also could fit what Ryan wants on the court just generally don't want to play for Bo because of the style of play?

 

Do Bo and his staff even try to recruit a kid like say DJO on Marquette who is an explosive/athletic guard that can also shoot from the perimeter? If not, would the reason why be that that Bo doesn't feel a DJO type of player would fit his system or more the reason being that Bo/his staff feels it would be a waste of recruiting time because that type of player would likely just not be interested in Bo's slower style of play?

 

EDIT-- As for why Blue decommitted, i think style of play was one factor. Other things i read on it though was that Vander wasn't happy with rumors/things being said about him on Badgers forums regarding his academics and he supposedly found himself bonding better with players on Marquette as he got to know the guys on the team.

[owbc]

Do Bo and his staff even try to recruit a kid like say DJO on Marquette

who is an explosive/athletic guard that can also shoot from the

perimeter?

They've always had at least 1-2 explosive/athletic players on the team. Yes, Jarmusz isn't that good. I'm sure he would be out of the game if there was a suitable replacement.

 

Wisconsin players show some of the best progression year-to-year of any college basketball team in the nation. The reason we are puzzled with Evans and Wilson is because we are so used to seeing constant improvement. Every year I see comments like: "The Badgers are going to be in trouble next year because of recruiting...". It never is the case. Gasser and Berggren will play more important roles next year. Ryan Evans still has time.

 

It would be nice if Wisconsin could advance farther in the tournament. But Marquette has the same problem--the class with Matthews and James never made the Sweet-16. The Marquette comparisons really bother me anyway because the Badgers continue to beat Marquette. This year's Badgers are #1 in the nation in fewest turnovers and #1 in free throw percentage. They play great defense--even better than usual. They haven't really gotten blown out at all this year, which has happened in the past with Bo Ryan teams.

 

The main problem is that the Bo Ryan style does not translate well in road games/neutral court games. It works amazingly well at home because opposing teams in college basketball tend to rush play and throw up quick shots, which is exactly what Bo wants them to do.

[jjfanec]

Do Bo and his staff even try to recruit a kid like say DJO on Marquette

who is an explosive/athletic guard that can also shoot from the

perimeter?

They've always had at least 1-2 explosive/athletic players on the team. Yes, Jarmusz isn't that good. I'm sure he would be out of the game if there was a suitable replacement.

 

Wisconsin players show some of the best progression year-to-year of any college basketball team in the nation. The reason we are puzzled with Evans and Wilson is because we are so used to seeing constant improvement. Every year I see comments like: "The Badgers are going to be in trouble next year because of recruiting...". It never is the case. Gasser and Berggren will play more important roles next year. Ryan Evans still has time.

 

It would be nice if Wisconsin could advance farther in the tournament. But Marquette has the same problem--the class with Matthews and James never made the Sweet-16. The Marquette comparisons really bother me anyway because the Badgers continue to beat Marquette. This year's Badgers are #1 in the nation in fewest turnovers and #1 in free throw percentage. They play great defense--even better than usual. They haven't really gotten blown out at all this year, which has happened in the past with Bo Ryan teams.

 

The main problem is that the Bo Ryan style does not translate well in road games/neutral court games. It works amazingly well at home because opposing teams in college basketball tend to rush play and throw up quick shots, which is exactly what Bo wants them to do.

Great post. People here keep complaining about Wisconsin's lack of athleticism, but look what happens when all you do is recruit athletes like Marquette. They are the poster child for going out and getting guys who can wow you on film. Buzz gets solid athletes every year. Not the best ones because they go to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, or North Carolina but good one's nonetheless. So here is how they have done recently.

 

Since the Final 4 run Marquette missed the tourney 2 years, lost in the 1st round 3 years, and lost in the second round 2 years. They also are going to struggle to even make the tournament this year.

 

In the same time period the unathletic Badgers have made the tourney every year. The lost in the first round 1 time, the second round 4 times, the sweet Sixteen 1 times and the Elite Eight 1 time.

 

Yet, there are people on this board that would rather do what Marquette does. There is definitely truth to the fact that not everybody is going to want to come to a team focused team like Wisconsin. The guy who wants to jump to the NBA in a year (think Vander Blue here as he made comments about going pro already in the fall) is not going to Wisconsin because they are not going to put up crazy numbers and get to shoot as much as say a Kemba Walker does at Georgetown. But they just need to look at how almost every Badger improves mightily while they are at Wisconsin -- Rob Wilson not included, and how athletic guys like Alando Tucker and Devin Harris thrived in Bo's system.

[MJLiverock]

No one has said WI has to run a Paul Westhead run and gun offense, there is plenty of room between that style and the current WI system. I don't even know if it is purely a system problem as much as it is an emphasis and recruiting problem. Even Leuer acknowledged that the defensive end taks so much energy and that is what gets playing time, not scoring or shooting.

 

Just looking at the recruiting for the last few years, after WI has had a nice run of success in a beaten down Big 10, and the players they go after are still the guys weighing offers from WI or mid majors or bottom feeder B10 programs like NW or Iowa or MN. WI has been able to turn some of these guys into more and found diamonds in the rough but trying to keep that plan going is tough work. Eventually a few of the guys turn out to be what all the scouts thought they would be, not top level D1 players.

 

WI's offense over the last couple years has become a perimeter game with lots of passing around the perimeter and jacking up shots, late in the clock, from distance, or both. I think I could have a low turnover percentage if all I had to do was pass the ball around the outside from 23 feet away and never drive or make the defense move much. You'll also notice WI has a horrible assist level but all anyone focuses on the assist/turnover ratio which is good because the turnovers are so low. WI is 10th in assists per game in the Big 10.

 

WI doesn't turn the ball over but they also don't make opponents turn the ball over. WI ranks 10th in forcing turnovers. They are 10th in offensive rebounds as well, primary due to the philosophy of getting back on defense rather than fighting for the rebound. It certainly isn't because they make their shots as they rank 9th in field goal percentage, meaing there are lots of missed shots. WI gets about 28% of their misses back on the offensive end, MN which ranks near the top in field goal percentage and offensive rebounds gets around 38% of their misses back.

 

WI looks to be a team that plays a very conservative style of basketball, no turnovers, no fast breaks, no attacking the basket, play tough defense and try to wear the opponent down. That style is, for me, getting boring to watch and is not attracting top talent to the program. Sure there are guys here and there but I think the recruiting has actually gotten worse not better over the past couple seasons. It is the same story, outrecruiting mid majors and trying to prove that the system or style can make anyone a good player but now that a couple guys they hoped would blossom haven't things could be looking worse. I just don't see scorers anywhere outside of Taylor next year. Guys like Brust, Dukan, were touted and they can't even get on the floor so you know next year will be their "freshman" year. Gasser may be a role player but isn't going to score 20 a game unless he suddenly shoots a whole lot better and Bergeren still barely plays, Wilson and Evans are so inconsistent and neither is much of a shooter.

 

This year WI will make the tourney, probably get bounced in the first weekend and look worse on paper next year. WI has established itself as fringe top 25 team that can make the tourney but really doesn't make me think they are much more than that. That's enough for some people and it doesn't bother me until people try to make me believe there is something more there or that they are on the verge of the elite because I just don't see it and honestly have gotten bored with team. More and more friends feel the same, the excitement for the games just isn't there because the style is so predictable and slow coupled with poor shooting.

[homer]

The main problem is that the Bo Ryan style does not translate well in road games/neutral court games. It works amazingly well at home because opposing teams in college basketball tend to rush play and throw up quick shots, which is exactly what Bo wants them to do.

I don't know if I buy that. They've had some big wins on the road under Bo - @ MSU (several times), @ Texas, etc. The tourney is about matchups and UW hasn't been fortunate in that regard.

[owbc]

WI has established itself as fringe top 25 team that can make the

tourney but really doesn't make me think they are much more than that.

That's enough for some people and it doesn't bother me until people try

to make me believe there is something more there or that they are on

the verge of the elite because I just don't see it and honestly have

gotten bored with team. More and more friends feel the same, the

excitement for the games just isn't there because the style is so

predictable and slow coupled with poor shooting.

And that's the ultimate conflict in the fan base. You can see with the half-empty student section and all the yellow shirts at the Minnesota game that some people are getting bored with it. But at the same time, the consistency and the winning are unparalleled in Wisconsin basketball history. They are probably the #2 team in the Big Ten again this year.

 

I highly doubt Bo is going to change or even feel any pressure to change his ways--at least as long as the attendance line keeps saying 17,230 every night.

[homer]

And that's the ultimate conflict in the fan base. You can see with the half-empty student section and all the yellow shirts at the Minnesota game that some people are getting bored with it. But at the same time, the consistency and the winning are unparalleled in Wisconsin basketball history. They are probably the #2 team in the Big Ten again this year.

 

I highly doubt Bo is going to change or even feel any pressure to change his ways--at least as long as the attendance line keeps saying 17,230 every night.

I don't think they're bored with the style of play. They've just been spoiled with a winning program for like 12 years now and don't feel the need to show up against the also rans of the Big Ten. If UW fell on hard times for two years and then made a come back in year three, that place would be packed game after game.

[owbc]

I don't think they're bored with the style of play. They've just been

spoiled with a winning program for like 12 years now and don't feel the

need to show up against the also rans of the Big Ten. If UW fell on

hard times for two years and then made a come back in year three, that

place would be packed game after game.

I considered that theory but it isn't consistent with other perennially dominant schools. Indiana continues to draw big crowds despite several down years. Other schools like Texas, Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Louisville never seem to have problems with a lethargic fan base like UW is seeing this year--and really it is a trend going back 3-4 years now.

[danzig6767]

Do Bo and his staff even try to recruit a kid like say DJO on Marquette

who is an explosive/athletic guard that can also shoot from the

perimeter?

They've always had at least 1-2 explosive/athletic players on the team. Yes, Jarmusz isn't that good. I'm sure he would be out of the game if there was a suitable replacement.

 

Wisconsin players show some of the best progression year-to-year of any college basketball team in the nation. The reason we are puzzled with Evans and Wilson is because we are so used to seeing constant improvement. Every year I see comments like: "The Badgers are going to be in trouble next year because of recruiting...". It never is the case. Gasser and Berggren will play more important roles next year. Ryan Evans still has time.

 

It would be nice if Wisconsin could advance farther in the tournament. But Marquette has the same problem--the class with Matthews and James never made the Sweet-16. The Marquette comparisons really bother me anyway because the Badgers continue to beat Marquette. This year's Badgers are #1 in the nation in fewest turnovers and #1 in free throw percentage. They play great defense--even better than usual. They haven't really gotten blown out at all this year, which has happened in the past with Bo Ryan teams.

 

The main problem is that the Bo Ryan style does not translate well in road games/neutral court games. It works amazingly well at home because opposing teams in college basketball tend to rush play and throw up quick shots, which is exactly what Bo wants them to do.

Great post. People here keep complaining about Wisconsin's lack of athleticism, but look what happens when all you do is recruit athletes like Marquette. They are the poster child for going out and getting guys who can wow you on film. Buzz gets solid athletes every year. Not the best ones because they go to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, or North Carolina but good one's nonetheless. So here is how they have done recently.

 

Since the Final 4 run Marquette missed the tourney 2 years, lost in the 1st round 3 years, and lost in the second round 2 years. They also are going to struggle to even make the tournament this year.

 

In the same time period the unathletic Badgers have made the tourney every year. The lost in the first round 1 time, the second round 4 times, the sweet Sixteen 1 times and the Elite Eight 1 time.

 

Yet, there are people on this board that would rather do what Marquette does. There is definitely truth to the fact that not everybody is going to want to come to a team focused team like Wisconsin. The guy who wants to jump to the NBA in a year (think Vander Blue here as he made comments about going pro already in the fall) is not going to Wisconsin because they are not going to put up crazy numbers and get to shoot as much as say a Kemba Walker does at Georgetown. But they just need to look at how almost every Badger improves mightily while they are at Wisconsin -- Rob Wilson not included, and how athletic guys like Alando Tucker and Devin Harris thrived in Bo's system.

That's you saying this, not anyone here. There can surely be a middle ground between Marquette going largely all athlete and Wisconsin going mostly farm boys with a random top notch athlete sprinkled in here and there.

 

Have DJO type of player on this current Badgers team and they might actually be a threat to advance a few rounds in the NCAA Tournament instead of hoping for a Sweet 16 finish at best.

 

Bo Ryan has obviously done a great job at Wisconsin. He has lead the program to more NCAA Tournament bids under his tenure than the rest of UW coaches before him combined i believe. I'm not wanting him to be canned.

 

I just wish he could add a little more athletic ability to his teams so that come tournament time, they don't have to score 100 percent of their points in half court sets. This leaves them prone to getting bounced by any team in the big dance if their jumper isn't falling because they rarely ever get any points from transition offense. None. You get in the NCAA Tournament and most teams there play good half court defense and are highly motivated to play very hard on defense. Thus, if your team never runs in transition offense which can lead to some easy points, you are forced each game in the tournament to execute great in half court offense and the jumper gods need to be on your side because there will be little margin for error left to score enough points to keep advancing.

[jjfanec]

Yet, there are people on this board that would rather do what Marquette does. There is definitely truth to the fact that not everybody is going to want to come to a team focused team like Wisconsin. The guy who wants to jump to the NBA in a year (think Vander Blue here as he made comments about going pro already in the fall) is not going to Wisconsin because they are not going to put up crazy numbers and get to shoot as much as say a Kemba Walker does at Georgetown. But they just need to look at how almost every Badger improves mightily while they are at Wisconsin -- Rob Wilson not included, and how athletic guys like Alando Tucker and Devin Harris thrived in Bo's system.

That's you saying this, not anyone here. There can surely be a middle ground between Marquette going largely all athlete and Wisconsin going mostly farm boys with a random top notch athlete sprinkled in here and there.

 

Have DJO type of player on this current Badgers team and they might actually be a threat to advance a few rounds in the NCAA Tournament instead of hoping for a Sweet 16 finish at best.

 

Bo Ryan has obviously done a great job at Wisconsin. He has lead the program to more NCAA Tournament bids under his tenure than the rest of UW coaches before him combined i believe. I'm not wanting him to be canned.

 

I just wish he could add a little more athletic ability to his teams so that come tournament time, they don't have to score 100 percent of their points in half court sets. This leaves them prone to getting bounced by any team in the big dance if their jumper isn't falling because they rarely ever get any points from transition offense. None. You get in the NCAA Tournament and most teams there play good half court defense and are highly motivated to play very hard on defense. Thus, if your team never runs in transition offense which can lead to some easy points, you are forced each game in the tournament to execute great in half court offense and the jumper gods need to be on your side because there will be little margin for error left to score enough points to keep advancing.

You are right. I probably put words in people's mouth.

 

One thing people needs to realize about recruiting is not all schools are created equal. Not to get in a big argument over what schools is better but I have read numerous times that certain players such as a Maymon or Rodney Williams from Minnesota were initially recruited by Wisconsin but they did not have the grades for Wisconsin. These players ended up playing at high level schools but they could not have qualified. Now it is not like Wisconsin is Northwestern but you do lose out on some recruits when your university has higher academic standards. Again schools like Minnesota and Marquette are good schools but they have looser restrictions on qualifying.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

JJ, Marquette has been one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country, despite being just a "bunch of athletes." They typically take care of the basketball, take good shots, and get to the free throw line a ton. Not bad for a bunch of kids who are too dumb to get into UW-Madison. Marquette's problems have come on the defensive end and on the glass. In previous years, that was in large part to not having any size whatsoever.

 

Bo does a hell of a job, but that system has its limitations. The teams who win at the elite level can play games at varying speeds. UW hasn't been able to do that. Most of the time, they're able to control the tempo. But teams that speed them up, and run a lot of motion offensively (see Davidson and Cornell) can really give them trouble.

[jjfanec]

JJ, Marquette has been one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country, despite being just a "bunch of athletes." They typically take care of the basketball, take good shots, and get to the free throw line a ton. Not bad for a bunch of kids who are too dumb to get into UW-Madison. Marquette's problems have come on the defensive end and on the glass. In previous years, that was in large part to not having any size whatsoever.

 

Bo does a hell of a job, but that system has its limitations. The teams who win at the elite level can play games at varying speeds. UW hasn't been able to do that. Most of the time, they're able to control the tempo. But teams that speed them up, and run a lot of motion offensively (see Davidson and Cornell) can really give them trouble.

I NEVER said Marquette players were dumb. Seriously, read what I wrote. I just brought up the facts that there are certain guys who just cant get in there. Also, Marquette is actually set up worse as a tournament team than Wisconsin, and it has shown with their success or lack there of in the tourney. I would love for there to be more athletes on the Badgers roster, just like I am sure Marquette fans would like some size but these two school are Elite schools so barring a "lucky class" neither team will be constant threats for final fours. There a couple teams in the country that would fit that bill.

 

I like Buzz as a coach. I tell my Marquette friends he gets a lot out of his limited-size roster. They play almost every game close and show a lot of heart. My biggest issue with Buzz is that I cannot stand how he over recruits but that seems to be par for the course in college ball.

 

Edit - I also am not implying Wisconsin is some ivy league type school that cant get athletes. There a guys who get into Wisconsin that could not get recruited to Northwestern. That does not mean the Wisconsin guys are dumb. Just means schools are different academically.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

I think that argument about being "set up" for tourney success is a reach, especially when you consider all the factors that go into it. No two situations are the same, and matchups and luck are so important in the tournament. UW beat 3 double-digit seeds in the Elite Eight season. Full marks for beating them, but that's still pretty fortunate.

 

Also,the injury bug has something to do with it. Take a Tucker, or a Harris off of those UW teams in March and they wouldn't have made it as far. Hell, look what happened when Butch got hurt, they were a 2 seed and flamed out in Chicago.

 

That's what MU has had to deal with. They lost both McNeal and James in separate years. When McNeal got hurt, MU was heading toward a 5/6 seed. That dropped them to an 8. The 09 team was leading the Big East through 11 games when James got hurt. Do I know for certain that they would have gotten out of the first weekend in those years? Of course not. But that killed any chance of it happening, especially in 09.

[jjfanec]

I think that argument about being "set up" for tourney success is a farce. No two situations are the same, and matchups and luck are so important in the tournament. UW beat 3 double-digit seeds in the Elite Eight season. Full marks for beating them, but that's still pretty fortunate.

 

Also,the injury bug has something to do with it. Take a Tucker, or a Harris off of those UW teams in March and they wouldn't have made it as far. Hell, look what happened when Butch got hurt, they were a 2 seed and flamed out in Chicago.

 

That's what MU has had to deal with. They lost both McNeal and James in separate years. When McNeal got hurt, MU was heading toward a 5/6 seed. That dropped them to an 8. The 09 team was leading the Big East through 11 games when James got hurt. Do I know for certain that they would have gotten out of the first weekend in those years? Of course not. But that killed any chance of it happening, especially in 09.

Spin it however you want but Marquette has not been good in the tourney since the final four run. Heck they missed the tourney a couple times and are hovering around a 10 seed right now. I will give you the McNeal injury being a killer but Dominic James (nowhere near a Tucker or Harris) was an overrated player by his senior year. His scoring average went down every year, he was a terrible 3 point shooter, and become pretty bad from the line. It hurt but it was not a crippling injury. They were leading the way because they had played the poorer part the Big East to start that year. The finished at Nova, Louisville, Pitt and Cuse and UCONN at home. That would have been a bad stretch with him more than likely.

 

I could try to spin Wisconsin tourney history - they lost Butch one year, ran into UNC one round before final four in their "lucky" Elite 8 run (played UNC extremely tough too), ran into a lights out Steph Curry one year, and a Cornell team that could not miss for a weekend. But the reality is they have not played that well in the tourney. It could be Bo's style - but Buzz's more up tempo style has not produced results either. I think they are both teams that around the 14th to 40th best teams in the NCAA year in and year out but that means they are likely to lose in the first 3 rounds.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

[quote name=jjfanec wrote: Spin it however you want but Marquette has not been good in the tourney since the final four run. Heck they missed the tourney a couple times and are hovering around a 10 seed right now. I will give you the McNeal injury being a killer but Dominic James (nowhere near a Tucker or Harris) was an overrated player by his senior year. His scoring average went down every year, he was a terrible 3 point shooter, and become pretty bad from the line. It hurt but it was not a crippling injury. They were leading the way because they had played the poorer part the Big East to start that year. The finished at Nova, Louisville, Pitt and Cuse and UCONN at home. That would have been a bad stretch with him more than likely. [/b]

You have to be joking. Yes, he wasn't a good shooter, but Dominic was an excellent PG, a great ballhandler, and a lockdown perimeter defender. He ran that team beautifully that year. Trust me, I watched every second that team played. Losing a 3 year starter at PG (the most important position in college ball) two weeks from the end of the season is a killer.

Let's look at those remaining games. They were even with #1 UConn (the game he got hurt) with 5 minutes left and lost by 10 I think. They got beat handily at Nova and Pitt. Lost at UL by 2. Lost to Cuse in OT. And lost at the buzzer to Villanova in NYC. Lost to Mizzou by 4 in the Tournament.

When a game comes down to a few possessions, you can be damn sure that having their starting PG would have made the difference.

 

[jjfanec]

Marc Newfield of Dreams][quote name=jjfanec wrote: Spin it however you want but Marquette has not been good in the tourney since the final four run. Heck they missed the tourney a couple times and are hovering around a 10 seed right now. I will give you the McNeal injury being a killer but Dominic James (nowhere near a Tucker or Harris) was an overrated player by his senior year. His scoring average went down every year, he was a terrible 3 point shooter, and become pretty bad from the line. It hurt but it was not a crippling injury. They were leading the way because they had played the poorer part the Big East to start that year. The finished at Nova, Louisville, Pitt and Cuse and UCONN at home. That would have been a bad stretch with him more than likely.

You have to be joking. Yes, he wasn't a good shooter, but Dominic was an excellent PG, a great ballhandler, and a lockdown perimeter defender. He ran that team beautifully that year. Trust me, I watched every second that team played. Losing a 3 year starter at PG (the most important position in college ball) two weeks from the end of the season is a killer.

Let's look at those remaining games. They were even with #1 UConn (the game he got hurt) with 5 minutes left and lost by 10 I think. They got beat handily at Nova and Pitt. Lost at UL by 2. Lost to Cuse in OT. And lost at the buzzer to Villanova in NYC. Lost to Mizzou by 4 in the Tournament.

When a game comes down to a few possessions, you can be damn sure that having their starting PG would have made the difference.

 

I really did not think James was that good. I actually had Marquette fan friends who thought the same thing. Thought he got worse over his career and took ill-advised shots. His injury hurt that team for sure, but I still think their lack of size was going to stop them come tournament time. The scores you posted show why I think Buzz is a good coach. His team always plays close. Maybe I am wrong and James would have made that difference to a deep run. I guess we can never tell. And maybe James was better than I give him credit for, but watching their games I always thought he was not at the same level as McNeal and Mathews.

[danzig6767]

Marc Newfield of Dreams]JJ, Marquette has been one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country, despite being just a "bunch of athletes." They typically take care of the basketball, take good shots, and get to the free throw line a ton. Not bad for a bunch of kids who are too dumb to get into UW-Madison. Marquette's problems have come on the defensive end and on the glass. In previous years, that was in large part to not having any size whatsoever.

 

Bo does a hell of a job, but that system has its limitations. The teams who win at the elite level can play games at varying speeds. UW hasn't been able to do that. Most of the time, they're able to control the tempo. But teams that speed them up, and run a lot of motion offensively (see Davidson and Cornell) can really give them trouble.

I like Buzz and think he'll have a lot of success at Marquette if he stays for a long time. This year's team has surprised me at how well they've developed offensively and if DJO wasn't so cold from the perimeter early in the season, they may have beat Duke or Gonzaga.

 

That said, my one issue with Buzz this year is i wish he'd play a little less aggressive style of defense. I understand that the team is super athletic and undersized, so Buzz wants to play a pressure type of defense to try and create turnovers which then will lead to transition offense for his quick team. My issue though is they play such tight on ball/man pressure that to often they get beat off the dribble and this leads to their defense falling apart into scramble situations where an opposing player gets either left wide open in the paint or behind the three point line. The scrambling around also leaves a defense more prone to allowing offensive boards.

 

I wonder if the defense would be more productive if sometimes they lessened the ball pressure a bit, kinda like how Wisconsin plays defense. Keep guys in front of you, protect the paint, and make them generally have to score over the top. Then at various points in the game step up the on ball pressure and maybe press some, mix things up. This years team is pretty inexperienced and i just think they struggle with the complexity of playing such on ball pressure because when a defender gets beat off the dribble, the whole team needs to react properly when helping or someone will be left wide open.