HOF Expansion Era Committee Ballot--Gillick In, Others Not

[JimH5]

There are 12 guys on a new ballot to be considered by a committee for induction into the Hall of Fame. They announce the results December 6th. Former Brewer Ted Simmons is on the list. Here are the bios (taken from the HOF website):

 

The 12 candidates for Expansion Era consideration:

Vida Blue spent 17 seasons pitching in the majors with the Oakland A's, Kansas City Royals and San Francisco Giants, compiling a 209-161 record, with a 3.27 ERA in 502 major league games/473 starts. Blue, the 1971 AL MVP and Cy Young Award winner, was named to six All-Star teams, and won at least 18 games five times in his career.

Dave Concepcion spent 19 seasons as the Cincinnati Reds shortstop, compiling a .267 average with 2,326 hits, 321 stolen bases and two Silver Slugger Awards, along five Gold Glove Awards and nine All-Star Game selections.

Steve Garvey compiled a .294 career average over 19 major league seasons with the Dodgers and Padres, amassing 2,599 hits, 272 home runs, 1,308 RBI and 10 All-Star Game selections. He hit .338 with 11 home runs and 31 RBI in 11 postseason series, was named the 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP and won the 1981 Roberto Clemente Award. Garvey won four Gold Glove Awards, was named the 1974 National League Most Valuable Player and played in an N.L. record 1,207 straight games.

Pat Gillick spent 27 years as the general manager for the Blue Jays, Orioles, Mariners and Phillies, winning at every stop along the way, with his teams earning 11 post-season berths and three World Series championships. In his 27 years as GM, his teams finished with a winning record 20 times.

Ron Guidry pitched 14 seasons for the New York Yankees, compiling a 170-91 record, a 3.29 ERA and a strikeout-to-walk ratio of 2.81-to-1. In 10 postseason starts, Guidry was 5-2 with a 3.02 ERA. Four times he won 18 games or more in a season, including a Cy Young Award winning 1978 season with a 25-3, 1.74 era record.

Tommy John pitched 26 seasons for the Indians, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels and A's, finishing his career after the 1989 season with a record of 288-231 and 3.34 ERA. His 700 career starts rank eighth on the all-time list and his 4,710.1 innings rank 20th all-time.

Billy Martin spent 16 seasons 1969, 1971-83, 1985, 1988) managing the Twins, Tigers, Rangers, Yankees (five different stints) and A's, compiling a 1,253-1015 record (.552). Martin's teams finished in first place five times, winning two American League pennants and one World Series with 1977 Yankees.

Marvin Miller was elected as the head of the Major League Baseball Players Association in 1966 and quickly turned the union into a powerhouse. Within a decade, Miller had secured free agency for the players. By the time he retired in 1982, the average player salary was approximately 10 times what it was when he took over.

Al Oliver compiled 2,743 hits in 18 seasons with the Pirates, Rangers, Expos, Giants, Phillies, Dodgers and Blue Jays. He finished with a .303 career average, 529 doubles and 1,326 RBI, recording 10 seasons with a .300 or higher average, including nine straight from 1976-1984.

Ted Simmons played for 21 seasons, totaling a .285 batting average, 2,472 hits, 483 doubles, 248 home runs and 1,389 RBI for the Cardinals, Brewers and Braves. An 8-time All-Star, he garnered MVP votes six times in his career.

Rusty Staub totaled 2,716 hits in a 23-year major league career, with a .279 average, 292 home runs, 1,466 RBI and six All-Star Game selections. He appeared in at least 150 games in 12 seasons, and his 2,951 big league games rank No. 12 on the all-time list.

George Steinbrenner guided the New York Yankees franchise as principal owner from purchasing the team in 1973 to his death in 2010, with his teams winning 11 American League pennants and seven World Series titles.

 

 

My own ballot would include Steinbrenner, Gillick, Miller & Martin--in that order.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I would include Simmons, Oliver, Staub, perhaps Concepcion.

[pitchleague]

is this one of those ballots in which only 1 nominee can be named the winner each time they vote or can they vote in more than one?

 

If so, my list would start and end with Tommy John.

 

If multiple winners are allowed, I'd vote for Tommy John and Ted Simmons for sure, and then I could probably have my arm twisted to vote for Billy Martin (he was a pretty decent player, too, which is rare for manager types) and Marvin Miller.

[RockCoCougars]

Tommy John was not a Hall of Famer in my view, at least as a player- maybe he should be enshrined because of the surgery. He was mostly mediocre over his career, anybody could compile those stats pitching for 40 years or whatever John did. Of that list, I would say the best player was Steve Garvey. I know Simmons gets a lot of play for the HOF - is ranked high by Bill James, etc., but I think that he falls just short. Yes he was a catcher, but mostly a DH for his last 3 seasons with the crew. When he did catch with the Brewers, he wasn't that great behind the plate though I know that he was no spring chicken. I'd say he falls just short. Al Oliver was a great hitter, but was no better than Cecil Cooper and was mostly poor defensively- where is Bill Madlock? (not that he should be in either) Blue probably should have been a HOF, but some personal things got in the way, and he was pretty much washed up by age 30. Frankly, I don't think that any of those players deserve to be in. My guess is that Miller, Martin and Steinbrenner are locks at some point.

[1992casey]

Anyone named on 75% of the ballots will be voted in. This appears to be a list that's been presented to the existing Veterans Committee. That's the group of living Hall of Famers that hasn't elected anyone they replaced the previous Veterans Committee.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/a...ey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

[PKBadger]

If Joe Morgan is on the committee, Concepcion should have a great shot. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[BrewersSuperCollector]

Steinbrenner

[BrewCrewForever]

I sure hope Simmons gets in. He deserves it. As far as catchers goes he is one of the all-time greats.

[Baldkin]

Simmons was probably the second best C in baseball over the course of his career. I'd think that deserves a lot of HoF consideration. The problem is, the guy who overlapped him was Bench. As for Simmons being a DH: He had 400ish games at DH and nearly 1700 (started) as a Catcher. I'd take him over Fisk or Carter behind the plate, for sure.

 

It's staggering to me that Marvin Miller isn't in the Hall. And it will be even worse if Steinbrenner gets in before him. Miller is the reason Steinbrenner could become Steinbrenner.

[dlk9s]

I'd go with the Big Stein, Miller, and Simmons. I wouldn't be offended if Gillick made it, either.

[BrewCrewForever]

If Simmons make the HOF, do the Brewers retire his number? He played 5 seasons in Milwaukee, more than either Fingers or Aaron. And it seems the Brewers only retire numbers of HOFers. So will #23 be up in the rafters at Miller Park? I think that would be pretty sweet.

[Invader3K]

Garvey, Simmons, and Steinbrenner would get my vote.

 

And yes, if Simmons makes the Hall, I think the Brewers should retire his number.

[hawing]

And yes, if Simmons makes the Hall, I think the Brewers should retire his number.

And I'd hope they don't rip the #23 right off Rickie's jersey immediately.

 

It's hard for me to imagine Steinbrenner not getting in as a so-recently-posthumous gesture.

[Invader3K]

And I'd hope they don't rip the #23 right off Rickie's jersey immediately.

 

I would guess they would let Rickie keep playing with that number as long as he is a Brewer, even if they did retire Simmons' number in the near future. Or maybe he would just voluntarily switch numbers.

[JohnBriggs12]

Vida Blue and Ron Guidry each posted two of the greatest seasons of any pitchers in the last 60 years. Blue, at age 21-22, compiled a 24-8 record and a 1.82 ERA in 1971. For those that worry about young pitchers going over 150 innings, get this. Blue pitched 312 innings that year with 24 complete games! He allowed just 209 hits, and fanned 301.

 

Louisiana Lightning Ron Guidry went 25-3 in 1978, and kept the Yankees afloat for the first 4 months of that season. He allowed just 187 hits in 273 innings. He posted 9 CG shutouts. It was an electric atmosphere at County Stadium one Friday in early July that year when the 13-0 Guidry and the Yankees faced the upstart Bambi's Bombers and Mike Caldwell who was in the midst of a pretty good season himself. In my minds eye, having been there that night, I can still see Larry Hisle's drive majestically sail over the left field wall for a 1st inning 3 run HR, which was all Caldwell, a renowned Yankee killer, would need that night as he shut them out 6-0 on 4 hits. Hisle, by the way, homered again off of Guidry later in that game. Speaking of Hisle, his injury issues that started early in the 1979 season and that he struggled to try to come back from for several more years, cannot be overlooked. Had he stayed healthy over the next 4-5 seasons, I'm convinced the Brewers win at least one, maybe two more division titles and those Brewer teams, as great as they were, would be looked upon as the offensive equal to the Big Red Machine, and one of the greatest offensive teams in history.

 

I digress though. But Blue and Guidry belong in the HOF, as does John. Blue and Guidry for their incredible seasons coupled with solid career stats, and John for his long term consistency.

[RockCoCougars]

Vida Blue and Ron Guidry each posted two of the greatest seasons of any pitchers in the last 60 years. Blue, at age 21-22, compiled a 24-8 record and a 1.82 ERA in 1971. For those that worry about young pitchers going over 150 innings, get this. Blue pitched 312 innings that year with 24 complete games! He allowed just 209 hits, and fanned 301.

 

Louisiana Lightning Ron Guidry went 25-3 in 1978, and kept the Yankees afloat for the first 4 months of that season. He allowed just 187 hits in 273 innings. He posted 9 CG shutouts. It was an electric atmosphere at County Stadium one Friday in early July that year when the 13-0 Guidry and the Yankees faced the upstart Bambi's Bombers and Mike Caldwell who was in the midst of a pretty good season himself. In my minds eye, having been there that night, I can still see Larry Hisle's drive majestically sail over the left field wall for a 1st inning 3 run HR, which was all Caldwell, a renowned Yankee killer, would need that night as he shut them out 6-0 on 4 hits. Hisle, by the way, homered again off of Guidry later in that game. Speaking of Hisle, his injury issues that started early in the 1979 season and that he struggled to try to come back from for several more years, cannot be overlooked. Had he stayed healthy over the next 4-5 seasons, I'm convinced the Brewers win at least one, maybe two more division titles and those Brewer teams, as great as they were, would be looked upon as the offensive equal to the Big Red Machine, and one of the greatest offensive teams in history.

 

I digress though. But Blue and Guidry belong in the HOF, as does John. Blue and Guidry for their incredible seasons coupled with solid career stats, and John for his long term consistency.

Didn't Caldwell beat Guidry twice that season? Between Caldwell and Higuera, the Brewers had a patented Yankee killer on the staff for over a decade.

I seem to remember another 'Mike' beating Guidry for his only other loss that season. I can't remember who it was though. One of the best, if not the best seasons, for a pitcher during my lifetime. That said, I think that he falls just short. As I said, Blue should have been in the HOF, and would have had he been able to keep his nose clean (literally).

[joepepsi]

Simmons, Gillick, Martin, Marvin Miller. Steinbrenner can wait. But of course he won't. He'll get in with Billy Martin and espn will be overjoyed.

 

Garvey had a career .775 OPS, a 116 *OPS+. Less than 300 homers, one hit shy of 2600 hits. I don't think that's good enough for a 1B. Staub had similar career numbers, but he played through most of the 60's, a dead ball era.

 

Vida Blue didn't have a long enough peak in my opinion. A couple of outstanding years, then several seasons as a mid rotation guy.

 

Guidry had a 9 years of sustained excellence, then essentially was done. Mussina was this good for 17 years. I bet more people would argue against Mussina in the HOF than Guidry. I guess it's back to the age old debate of short career with high peak vs. steady longevity.

[endaround]

To get my head around player, I tend to look at these lists:

http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500p.htm

http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500.htm

 

They aren't perfect(relievers aren't separated out and catcher defense isn't there) and aren't meant as a definitive ranking but can give you a good idea of the neighborhood a player is is in. So for Vida Blue is like Frank Viola and not even really close. Tommy John is right on the border depending how you weigh peak and longevity make a huge difference for him.

And Steve Garvey really doesn't belong.

[joepepsi]

So for Vida Blue is like Frank Viola and not even really close.

Guidry is no. 100 on the pitchers' list, just two above Viola. I don't think he deserves to be in and wouldn't even be considered if he hadn't played for that team.

[RockCoCougars]

I agree that Garvey doesn't belong, but in my view he was the best of these players (outside of maybe Blue). Up until the mid 80's, Garvey would have been considered a shoo-in. Had he not fallen completely off at the end of his career, he could have eeked out a couple years as a DH somewhere and gotten to 3,000 hits.

 

Blue just self-destructed. Outside of Steve Carlton and Randy Johnson, he was probably the most talented left handed pitcher since Spahn. If only he could have stayed off the coke- which I believe he ended up retiring from- after a prison term, suspensions, etc., all he would have had to have done was to stay active throughout most of the 80's to make it. Most of his stats were compiled before the age of 30. He was basically the Dwight Gooden of the baby boomers- their careers paralleled each other so much, it's scary.

 

By the way, where is Dick Allen? In my view, he definitely deserves some consideration. Is this for guys who have not yet been considered by the veterans committee? I doubt it because a few of these guys have been off the main ballot for some time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

By the way, where is Dick Allen? In my view, he definitely deserves some consideration. Is this for guys who have not yet been considered by the veterans committee? I doubt it because a few of these guys have been off the main ballot for some time.

Allen has a strong case. Dude was a BEAST who didn't put up huge counting stats.

 

The Hall is VERY inconsistent when you look at players, and try to apply standards.

 

Bob Johnson is out.......(.899 OPS, 138 OPS+, 2,051 hits, 288 homers)

Chick Hafey is in..........(.898 OPS, 133 OPS+, 1,466 hits, 164 homers).

 

And they played the same position, in the same era.

 

Color me confused.

 

For some guys, if they didn't have the counting stats, they're not getting in. Some guys put up huge numbers over a short span, and they made it. (Hack Wilson). Inconsistent standards.

[RockCoCougars]

By the way, where is Dick Allen? In my view, he definitely deserves some consideration. Is this for guys who have not yet been considered by the veterans committee? I doubt it because a few of these guys have been off the main ballot for some time.

Allen has a strong case. Dude was a BEAST who didn't put up huge counting stats.

 

The Hall is VERY inconsistent when you look at players, and try to apply standards.

 

Bob Johnson is out.......(.899 OPS, 138 OPS+, 2,051 hits, 288 homers)

Chick Hafey is in..........(.898 OPS, 133 OPS+, 1,466 hits, 164 homers).

 

And they played the same position, in the same era.

 

Color me confused.

 

For some guys, if they didn't have the counting stats, they're not getting in. Some guys put up huge numbers over a short span, and they made it. (Hack Wilson). Inconsistent standards.

Agreed. I was too young to see him in his prime, but the stats speak for themselves. Allen was basically the Joey Belle of his time, but more dominant relative to his peers. His personality kind of got him blackballed, but his stories of playing in the minors in the segregated south kind of make that understandable.

 

You are right on about the short span thing as well. Puckett makes the Hall- which I don't argue with- but Mattingly doesn't? Though I may sound like a Yankee homer (I'm far from it), I'm always kind of shocked that Thurman Munson doesn't get more consideration. He was arguably better than Fisk (definitely defensively) during their primes. After his death, there was talk that he planned of retiring and even if he hadn't he'd have probably moved to first full time at some point.... but considering the fact that he was only in his early thirties when he was killed- had he caught a few more seasons, and then moved to first or DH for a few more, he would have accumulated enough stats to get in.

[MadScientist]

Steinbrenner should not even be considered this year. He just died, which tends to cloud peoples' judgment. Wait a few years so that his whole record can be judged fairly, including his banning and all the damage he has done to baseball.

[gregmag]

I love, love, love these discussions.

 

I think Simmons is extremely underrated and would be by far the best choice among the listed players. He was a great offensive catcher and good defensive catcher for a long time, and as somebody said, he just had the bad luck to play in Johnny Bench's shadow. I think his absence from the Hall is all about a failure to set standards for catchers properly.

 

I don't think Garvey belongs. He was a flashy player in a big market, but he put up very ordinary numbers for a 1b.

 

Of the pitchers, I'm on the fence about John. Guidry and Blue weren't good enough for long enough, in my view, although if they got in, they wouldn't be the first pitchers to get in with short careers. But they aren't, just to pull an unfair name out of the air, Koufax -- their peaks were short too.

 

Miller changed baseball for the better. The excesses that followed aren't his fault. I hate Steinbrenner with a fiery passion, so I want him out. That's totally irrational on my part, of course. But I think it's tough to evaluate the nonplayers on anything other than subjective grounds. I will say that I don't think Martin belongs. His M.O. was to take over a team, move it forward suddenly -- because he was a genius -- but then destroy its pitching staff, burn his bridges -- because he was a borderline sociopath -- and then move on.

 

Actually, Martin is kind of the managerial Dick Allen. Allen is the best HoF argument starter ever. His numbers are really hard to deny, but on the other hand he appears to have been a genuine cancer who hurt his teams.

 

Oliver was a great hitter for average and not much else, but he did what he did for a long time. For some reason he reminds me of a great scoring shooting guard who was limited in other ways -- maybe a Mitch Richmond type. Al Oliver is to Rod Carew as Mitch Richmond is to Clyde Drexler -- roughly the same category of player, but a critical notch down the pole. It's not a perfect comparison: Oliver had more power than Carew, but not enough to offset Carew's other advantages.

[joepepsi]

You are right on about the short span thing as well. Puckett makes the Hall- which I don't argue with- but Mattingly doesn't?

I think Mattingly is one of the most overrated players of all time. He had 4 fantastic seasons, 1984-1987, and then wasn't really anything special after that. In the 8 seasons he played after 1987 he topped .800 OPS only 4 times, just once reaching into the .820's. He only played 13 seasons, those last 8 hitting just 99 homers with a .347obp/.424slg.

 

His peak didn't last long enough, and his health didn't allow him the years to run up the counting stats. Take away those 4 great years and all you have left is an injury prone Wally Joyner.